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  #1   IP: 98.189.172.157
Old 07-23-2012, 03:22 PM
yeahjohn yeahjohn is offline
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Engine will not run in gear

I have solved all of my problems except one. I am so close to being on the water. I ran the engine for 2 hours from 800 rpm and up. The issue I am having now is the engine will not run in gear. My mixture screw is turned one full turn out from all the way in.

The engine will be at idle 800 rpm I will go to put it into forward and the rpm will start to drop and I give it more throttle to maintain near 800 I can slowly get the prop spinning but eventually the further I put it into fwd the engine will stall regardless of the amount of gas being given. The same result in reverse.

My assumption is I should be able to go in and out of forward and reverse at 800 rpm idle without playing with throttle to much, then giving gas when I want to have momentum.

I have never taken off top of transmission box and have seen a few videos and it looks rather scarey down there. It feels like the transmission is just putting to much tension on the shaft. What are my possible issues?
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:58 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Lightbulb A good bet!

yeahjohn, sounds like fuel if your in the water, are you? I actually mean the boat. The idle screw setting will have little to do with performance once off idle. Did you look at the plugs? And have you changed anything recently?
One turn out seems a bit rich to me, mine sits at around 1 3/4 turns out. It takes a few seconds of cranking to get started when cold and will idle all day long in or out of gear with no issues.

Dave Neptune
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Old 07-23-2012, 06:08 PM
yeahjohn yeahjohn is offline
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Hey Dave. I have changed and cleaned almost everything (that was low cost and practical)... I have about 15 gallons of fresh fuel on top of a few gallons of not so fresh fuel... so I am not sure how much water could be in the mix.

I have new
-freshly machined head
-head gaskets
-ignition coil
-J8C plugs
-Plug wires
-Rebuilt carb
-water separator
-inline fuel filter
-hoses
-clamps

I have never seen the boat go all the way into gear, not sure how it has ever worked... I richened mix to see if that was my issue. Don't think it was... I will empty my tank if that will do the trick =)
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Old 07-23-2012, 07:18 PM
smosher smosher is offline
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When mine acted like this, I pulled the passage plug and flushed gas through the carb and that cleaned it up.

Does the choke have any effect ?

Steve
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Old 07-23-2012, 07:56 PM
yeahjohn yeahjohn is offline
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Choke does not help the issue. I've been trying to burn fuel, and am planning on pulling the rest out and putting in new.
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:59 PM
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ILikeRust ILikeRust is offline
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1. Have you made sure the timing is right?

2. Not saying you've got this problem, and I sincerely hope you don't, but an acquaintance of mine had similar symptoms and it turned out to be a cracked head.
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  #7   IP: 68.4.33.102
Old 07-23-2012, 11:09 PM
yeahjohn yeahjohn is offline
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Timing and head are both good. Head has just been professionally machined and looks awesome timing was all good.
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Old 07-23-2012, 11:34 PM
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Can you turn the shaft by hand in neutral?
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:27 AM
yeahjohn yeahjohn is offline
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Yes. Shaft turns by hand and you feel my folding prop open
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Old 07-24-2012, 11:50 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Question type?

yeahjohn, do you hav a mechanical or electric fuel pump?

Dave Neptune
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:20 PM
tenders tenders is offline
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Plugged exhaust? Sounds like engine is choking as more demands are placed on it.

A vacuum gauge would be a potential troubleshooting tool, right Dave? (Though there are other ways to troubleshoot this not involving a gauge.)
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:06 PM
yeahjohn yeahjohn is offline
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Dave I just picked up a new facet pump at captains locker today. I have the original electric pump. It still seems operational but under load it may be failing. That was my guess. So I am replacing that tomorrow. Clogged exhaust or
Fuel tank vent. How do I find those things and address them?
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:15 PM
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sastanley sastanley is offline
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Fuel tank vent..open the gas fill cap..if it keeps running, the vent is clogged since air is getting let in via the fill hose. On a C-30 the vent is in the top stbd transom area. On my boat, water likes to collect around the gas fill..make sure you have a good, fresh, supple o-ring under the cap.

Clogged exhaust..the best way is to pull the big exhaust hose where the water gets injected between the hot section and the muffler & look for a physical blockage..the cool seawater mating with the hot dry exhaust creates deposits around that area..on my C-30 that is directly below the inboard sink, just above the muffler.
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Old 07-25-2012, 12:26 AM
svdoorprize svdoorprize is offline
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I had the same issue last weekend

I had the same issue last weeekend. my marine dric=ve was starting to slip a bit so i did an adjustment on the marine drive. i got a bit greedy and tightened it up by 3/8th of a rotation and while underway she would stall out at anything over 1000 rpm (unfortunatley it was in a 3+ foot chop near the rocks). once i loosened it by 2/8ths of a turn she ran great. the adjustment of the drive is very tempermental, however, once dialed in, it will go forever.

Jim
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Old 07-30-2012, 11:32 AM
yeahjohn yeahjohn is offline
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packing nut to tight...

packing nut to tight... ugh. Weeks of issues... I could turn shaft by hand but I noticed after repeated attempts to put into gear that the shaft and nut were getting warm, and no water was dripping. I loosened to a significant drip (after getting the heat bounded nuts apart, cleaned, and lubed) and the engine fired right up and went into gear. Victory! Now two things.

Thing one.
When I put the engine in gear I still have to give it throttle so say if I am at 800 rpm idle then I put it into gear I have to increase throttle to around 1200 rpm while putting it into gear to get it into gear without stalling then rpm drops to 800 once in gear. then if I put it back to neutral the engine will increase rpms back to around 1200 and I have to pull back throttle. I am still thinking I should simply be able to bump it in and out of gear staying at 800 rpm fwd and reverse? is this correct?

Thing two.
My throttle lever in the cockpit standard two lever shifter throttle combo for the non wheel helm catalina 30. The throttle lever sits a 9 o'clock and will idle at 850 sitting there when I mover throttle up to 10 o'clock engine goes all the way up to 2000 rpm and 11 o'clock might as well be wide open. These seem like crazy jump in rpm and ultimately boat speed, for very minor touches on throttle lever. Can I adjust this so the throttle lever slowly increase boat speed?

With my current two problems slip entry and exit are almost impossible.
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Old 07-30-2012, 11:49 AM
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roadnsky roadnsky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahjohn View Post
Thing one.
When I put the engine in gear I still have to give it throttle so say if I am at 800 rpm idle then I put it into gear I have to increase throttle to around 1200 rpm while putting it into gear to get it into gear without stalling then rpm drops to 800 once in gear. then if I put it back to neutral the engine will increase rpms back to around 1200 and I have to pull back throttle. I am still thinking I should simply be able to bump it in and out of gear staying at 800 rpm fwd and reverse? is this correct?
Well, that's pretty close to normal.
When you engage the forward or reverse it puts a load on the engine which decreases RPM.
Then when you shift to neutral the load is immediately released, hence the increased RPM.
(Sorta like shifting to neutral in your car while driving down the road without taking your foot off the gas)

What is the lowest RPM you can do smoothly while in gear at idle?

Congrats on solving the stuffing box issue!
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Old 07-30-2012, 12:09 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Lightbulb To much

yeahjophn, when I engage my Indigo prop into forward gear at a 750 idle I only loose around 50 RPM if that. Either your idle adjustment is off or your base timing is, that is way to much of a drop unless your swinging a really big prop.
Was your prop shaft actually hard to turn when it got a bit warm? It seems to be a stretch that that would cause a stalling load on the engine unless the above is true.

Dave Neptune
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Old 07-30-2012, 12:24 PM
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Baltimore Sailor Baltimore Sailor is offline
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Not holding a low idle in gear sounds like a lean mixture to me. I adjusted mine this way:

With the drive in forward, I lowered idle as far as it would go without stalling. Then I closed down the mixture screw a quarter-turn at a time until the idle RPMs came back up a bit. Then I throttled down again until the near-stall, then adjusted the idle mixture again. It ended up working sorta like this:
  • put engine in forward
  • throttle down to near stall at 1100 rpm (for example)
  • adjust idle mixture; RPMs rise to 1150-1200 RPM
  • throttle down to near stall at 1000 RPM
  • adjust idle mix; RPM rises to 1050 RPM
  • throttle down to near stall at 900 RPM
  • adjust
  • throttle down to 800 RPM
  • adjust
  • throttle down to 700 RPM
  • adjust; leave at 750-800

This process worked great for me. Good luck on your adjustments.

One question for everybody: does anybody ever put a carb cleaner in the gas along with the MMO? Or does the MMO take care of that?
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Old 07-30-2012, 12:36 PM
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I can speak to stalling load directly.

When Thatch and I headed out to chase down the U.S.S. Iowa I was motoring at nearly idle and the engine slowed to a stop maybe 200 yards from the slip. It had the telltale short squeal that identified the issue immediately as the stuffing box binding. I grabbed the wrenches, loosened it up to the point of dripping considerably and we motored for the next 8 hours trouble free regardless of RPM and much of it was quite low.

John, my engine does not stall shifting into gear at idle (700 RPM). Along the lines of what Dave said, let's make sure everything else is in order (timing, mixture, idle adjustment).
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Old 07-30-2012, 03:07 PM
yeahjohn yeahjohn is offline
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Dave. I would only try to turn shaft when cold before... once I noticed it was warm it was impossible to move. Right now I believe my mixture screw is about one turn out... I think I will go to 1 1/2 and work from there. Also my lowest idle as of now is around 880... I can get lower after warming engine for a very long time.

Is my second issue of no range of movement in throttle lever normal? or is that adjustable?
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Old 07-30-2012, 03:37 PM
Sony2000 Sony2000 is offline
 
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I noticed on a new engine to me, that it didn't idle well, after checking the timing a number of times. Then adjusting the dwell angle, it calmed right down to a much lower RPM. Reving engine and it would return to a solid low idle. Petronics distributor.
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:18 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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+ 1 On This

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sony2000 View Post
I noticed on a new engine to me, that it didn't idle well, after checking the timing a number of times. Then adjusting the dwell angle, it calmed right down to a much lower RPM. Reving engine and it would return to a solid low idle. Petronics distributor.
Just had exactly the same experience. Delco distributor. Idle set lean @ 600RPM.

A couple of weeks ago, after setting the points, I noticed the dwell angle was ~2 degrees to high. I thought "what the heck" and let it go.
Then I noticed the engine started having the following symptoms:
Rough idle
Acceleration stumble when shifting into gear and revving up. (12X8 two blade prop)
If I shifted into gear at idle without giving gas the engine would die. Usually I could shift from neutral into gear and the engine would not stall if I didn't give it gas.

Yesterday I opened the point gap a bit. The dwell angle ended up being 32 degrees. All the symptoms disappeared.

Apparently my symptoms were on the ignition side - not in the carburetor.
Unless there was a piece of crud in the carb that worked itself loose.......

TRUE GRIT
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Old 07-31-2012, 10:58 PM
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i'm not seeing that you have the adjustable jet on your carb.

i'd strongly recommend you get and install it -- it sounds to me like your mixture in gear and above idle is too lean -- and the only way to richen it to stop the stalling out or even low rpms in gear is to have that adjustable jet.

after all the challenges i've faced and reported on in the past year. my a4 -- like neal's and dave's idles smoothly and does not die when put into gear. as mentioned many other places on the forum, a good idle in neutral and even a sustainable reverse do not add up to a solid forward -- which is what counts.

another thing to try -- given the old fuel in your tank [again, read my recent posts] you need to try using an outboard fuel tank you know is clean with fresh fuel. i find that the fuel system is the most tempermental aspect of the a4; if it's not completely right, a4 won't run, whereas it will if the ignition system is less than perfect.
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Old 08-01-2012, 08:50 AM
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Lightbulb

yeahjohn,

the small amount of movement in the throttle control is normal..Mine is about 11:30 at idle, and 12:00 is 1,600 RPM. By 1:00 I am over 2,000..2:00 is WOT.

This is not adjustable because the cable is a direct connection to the butterfly on the carb...you should be able to move it down at the 'business end' and look up in the cockpit to see what your range is that way, and I think you'll have a better understanding of how it works. Mine is in the same spot on the side of the cockpit well.

In my experience, stalling when you put it in gear, or stumbling on throttle up usually means an idle jet/passage is clogged or your stuffing box may be too tight..it should never be so tight you cannot spin the shaft in neutral.

When I shift, I lose about 100 RPM, but a nice easy throttle up seems to work the best. I need to do a little clean out on my carb as the transition from idle to main jet (1,150-1,200 RPM) is a little rough if I rush thru it with the throttle (which happens often due to the limited throw of the throttle cable) and I get a little stumble. Once I get it over 1,200, no problems.
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Old 09-11-2018, 07:14 AM
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Finally Fixed stalling in gear!

Had this problem and my friends here had me chasing many things.
Plugged exhaust...nope
Cleaned carb...many times! Lol
Packing gland too tight...nope
Trans out of adjustment...nope
Points
Plugs
Distributer weights and springs
Timing(with a light). Nope
Fuel pump....nope
Had the carb off this weekend and cleaned it. Had the fuel pump off and made sure diaphragm was okay.( I need a screen for the filter/accumulator bowl).
While all this was off I decided to check the valves. Practically zero clearance on most! Got in there with a couple 1/2" wrenches and my .010 and .012 feelers and reset each valve. Has probably never been done in its 43 years!
Now she runs like a champ and has tons of power. 2years of aggravation solved by 2 hours of pain! So happy!
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Administrator (09-11-2018), Dave Neptune (09-11-2018), ndutton (09-11-2018)
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