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Old 05-27-2013, 02:01 PM
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Milky oil; process of elimination

Did a compression check on the engine today, hoping to eliminate another potential deal breaker for this install. Compression is good on all four cylinders, ranging between 95 and 115 (the other two were 105 and 100). I was glad about this, until I noticed the milky light brown color of the oil that would jet out of the new nipple I put in (but never finished the install) for a new oil pressure gauge. When I drained the oil, which has less than one hour of running time, it was all milky brown.

I searched through many threads, and decided to proceed via a process of elimination, starting with the water pump:



The impeller shows some wear, and I will most likely replace it and keep this one as a backup. Is there a way to determine the condition of the seals? I realize that if these are the same ones that have been in place for many years, they most likely do need replacing.

James
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Old 05-27-2013, 02:25 PM
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James,
How was the engine running. Could you post a pick of the plugs. Plugs are a good way to figure out if the water is getting in through the top end via a head gasket leak or rusted /fractured manifold. If the engine isn't firing properly or lacking power that is a strong indication of water in the top end as well.

Just trying to prevent you from pulling apart things that may not be the problem. Need to try and zero in on the cause.
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Old 05-27-2013, 02:46 PM
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plugs

Here is a picture of the plugs:


#3 had a slight whitish residue on it, but I haven't run the engine in nearly two months, working on other aspects of the install after it had been run and observed. all four of the plugs have dark brown to black deposits on them, due to the engine running rich, which I can live with, especially during the shakedown phase here on the hard. When the engine was running, it ran well and would idle consistently, and accel/decel with out any real issues.

BTW Mo, a gentleman who sails out of our marina is prepping his boat for a trip to Halifax, and then on the the African coast. I will try to get his particulars and forward them to you.

James

Last edited by Hymodyne; 05-27-2013 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 05-27-2013, 02:48 PM
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I think is is hard, if not impossible for this pump to get water into the crankcase. It is designed with the two seals.

One seal keeps the water in the impeller chamber, and the other keeps the oil in the engine. If the water side seal goes, it will leak out the hole between the seals.

The only way I can think of to check the seals is to run the pump, and look for leaks. You could go crazy, and design a jig to pressurize the seals....

I dont know how easy your access is, but since it is off, and it has been years, you should replace the seals.

Go by a process of elimination, to find that water intrusion.
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Old 05-27-2013, 03:30 PM
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I'd suggest a pressure test on the cooling system (after the pump). It's easy to do and will instantly confirm or eliminate the water jacket, head and manifold as possibilities. You can pressure test the block/head and the manifold separately if you prefer.

This test will point you in a direction.
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Old 05-27-2013, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hymodyne View Post
BTW Mo, a gentleman who sails out of our marina is prepping his boat for a trip to Halifax, and then on the the African coast. I will try to get his particulars and forward them to you.

James
No worries, we'll look after him if he shows. We are at shearwater yacht club right in Halifax Hbr.
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Old 05-27-2013, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
I'd suggest a pressure test on the cooling system (after the pump). It's easy to do and will instantly confirm or eliminate the water jacket, head and manifold as possibilities. You can pressure test the block/head and the manifold separately if you prefer.

This test will point you in a direction.
Agree completely Neil. I have heard of the seal going on the engine side of the pump and allowing water in the crankcase and that would pretty much be the only other causative reason for water in crankcase once the block and manifold and exhaust layout have been checked.
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Last edited by Mo; 05-27-2013 at 10:08 PM.
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Old 05-27-2013, 09:40 PM
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Mo, how could the engine side seal of the water pump let water in the engine?

If we are talking about the same pump, I cant see it. There are 2 seals, one for water, and one for oil, with a hole in between.
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Old 05-27-2013, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romantic comedy View Post
Mo, how could the engine side seal of the water pump let water in the engine?

If we are talking about the same pump, I cant see it. There are 2 seals, one for water, and one for oil, with a hole in between.
It's been discussed many times in the past and is universally accepted as a possible source of water incursion in the crankcase. In support of this here are a few posts from Don on the subject:
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...251l#post31251
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...9587l#post9587
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...=3228#post3228

There are more, I stopped at three.
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Old 05-27-2013, 10:05 PM
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Smile Here's my understanding of it.

Both my pumps are still serviceable so I haven't had to do a rebuild yet.

Both seals may be worn at the same time. Water sometimes makes it into the small area between the two seals. As the shaft turns water and the pump is making pressure some water makes it past the oil seal (engine side) and drains from the accessory into the base pan. Rebuild the pump is the cure...and perhaps a pump shaft if it had a long service life and is scored. I believe we had a few cases of that happening between last summer and this spring as well.

I have a feeling that small amounts of water incursion may happen at certain times or rpm when a seal is on the way out. May evaporate out but as the seal worsens it becomes evident on the dip stick. Really doesn't take that much water to make oil foam white and bubble on the dip stick.
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Last edited by Mo; 05-27-2013 at 10:16 PM.
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Old 05-27-2013, 11:52 PM
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Thanks Neil, and Mo. Good to know.
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Old 05-28-2013, 08:34 AM
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pressure test

I have read through the posts found in this thread, and the links to other threads on this subject. I going to buy new seals and a new impeller. I also plan to install a pressure gauge and schrader valve at the point where the engine connects to the pump, the brass/bronze tube that sends the coolant water into the engine. I realize I need to close off the opening to the thermostat housing. does that mean removing the dole thermostat, which has three openings (two for hoses, one for a temp sensor) and plug the opening on top of the exhaust manifold?

James
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:19 AM
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Did you see this post on pressure testing? With a bicycle pump and a pressure gauge, a sacrificial bike tire, and some hose clamps, you can pressure test any component of the system.

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...2&postcount=14

I'd suggest starting with the extreme ends of the engine to identify that there is a leak in the first place before trying to isolate any leaky goings-on in the components.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:25 AM
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Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenders View Post
Did you see this post on pressure testing? With a bicycle pump and a pressure gauge, a sacrificial bike tire, and some hose clamps, you can pressure test any component of the system.

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...2&postcount=14

I'd suggest starting with the extreme ends of the engine to identify that there is a leak in the first place before trying to isolate any leaky goings-on in the components.
many thanks. I will do this later this afternoon.

James
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:57 PM
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first attempt

Got home from the university and started at this pressure test. I had recently replaced the tube on my motorcycle, so I had a donor for the valve. I used a length of fuel hose and some hose clamps for the tube that attaches to the pump:



first fill with the hose from my compressor was too much air, so the valve shot up into the air, with a geyser of water from the block following it, nearly hitting me in the head on the second attempt I was able to get the hose clamp lower around the nipple on the manifold and I tightened it as far as I could. When I added the air, s l o w l y, the top of the innertube portion of the valve began to inflate, and stayed inflated. The biggest leak of air was around the metal tube connection to the block, behind the distributor pedestal. I put a small thread-on tire pump onto the valve and got readings of around 15 psi this attempt, and then of over 50 on the second. after that, it was all down hill, as my zealous attempts to tighten the rubber around the nipple resulted in the rubber leaking.

I went to lowes and found brass fittings to cap the nipple on the top of the manifold. Tomorrow I will attach the metal valve stem (I cut it away from the innertube) to the tube instead of the manifold. even with the failures, when the parts of the pressurization system were working, the water jacket seemed to hold the air in, albeit only for about ten minutes or so, because of failures at either end.

I hope the new attempt tomorrow will work, as I believe that points to the seals on the water pump as the culprits for my milky oil. If this is the case, I will get the seals and a new impeller from Don and I will be back on the road, er, water.

James
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:05 PM
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James,

Hold the pressure down to say, 3 - 5 lbs. All we're trying to do is see if it holds air. With engines the age of ours and who knows how many decades of raw water cooling a high pressure test could be destructive.

Sounds encouraging though.
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Old 05-29-2013, 04:58 PM
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new pressure testing parts

Home from school, I put together all of the parts pictured to seal the water jacket and pressurize:



I have around 20# of pressure in the system now, I just have to wait to see if it holds. I did this test about a half hour ago, and 30# had decreased to around 5-7; I saw bubbles coming from the fitting for the water inlet tube at the engine block, behind the distributor pedestal. I tightened the compression fitting, but if it still has less air pressure when I check again, I will remove the distributor so I can properly remove and teflon tape the fitting.

Chris, I am beginning to come around to your thinking, as expressed at the end of the thread, "Off With His Head;" I am trying to do things smart, but also with a degree of haste so I can get our Dory back on the water. We didn't sail last year because I got ripped off on a used outboard after our Honda gave up the ghost. Considering just waiting another season, working through the summer on all of the little things so maybe next year we can splash again.

Darn (not what I really wanted to say).


James
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Old 05-29-2013, 09:24 PM
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Smile You will get it.

James,
You can put some dish-washing liquid in a spray bottle and spray around your joints and fittings etc etc...a leak will send a very visible bubble....sounding promising though. Keep the faith.
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Old 05-29-2013, 09:40 PM
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encouragement

Thanks for the support, Mo. In the event there is a leak, it would be a slight one, based on the time it takes for the pressure to decrease within the system.

What does this mean when the compression readings are as high as they are? I plan to follow through with the new seals and impeller for the pump, but would like to know if I can run the engine with this issue still present.

I was talking to my wife earlier this evening and suggested that we proceed with the install, try to get one season out of the boat, then back out she comes for a complete overhaul in the fall.The nature of our river sailing on the Nanticoke means that provided we don't run aground, we use the engine for perhaps twenty minutes during each sailing outing- ten minutes motoring out, ten motoring back in. These numbers are themselves a bit high in reality, but I want to produce numbers that will accurately meet or exceed actual engine hours, maybe 20 for a season running from early July until mid October.

I have replaced the schrader valve I had on my pressure testing device with another one in case this was the cause of the slow leak. I am going to do one more reading on the pressurized system and call it a night.

James
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Old 05-29-2013, 10:03 PM
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James,

I have a small foot pump for blowing up bike tires...with a pressure gauge on it...I've used it to check manifolds and worked OK. It's been in my garage since before I had air tools and compressor. Think I paid about 10 bucks for it. As previously mentioned by some of the guys, you don't need allot of pressure...not over 20 lbs for sure and some say less.

Let us know how it works out, for sure.
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Old 05-29-2013, 11:32 PM
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I did a pressure test on my exhaust system, in the garage.

I turned down the regulator pressure to zero, then increased it incrementally.

I covered it in Dawn spray. No bubbles happened.
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Old 05-30-2013, 06:49 AM
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She holds!!

Pressurized the water jacket last night before going to bed, Just checked and the pressure level was the same. Ordering seals and an impeller kit later today.

Once these parts get here and I can install them, I can go back to doing a final install of the engine.

James
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Old 05-30-2013, 06:57 AM
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James,

Nice to see another early A4!

I find it tough to balance being thorough with practical. Do we say, "good enough" and take a shot, or prepare for the moon launch?

That being said, I like the process you are following. It looks like it is paying off.

a little more perseverance

Chris
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