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  #1   IP: 76.172.41.141
Old 07-04-2011, 03:25 AM
Bruce A Bruce A is offline
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Head Removal Due to Power Loss

Hi Everyone,

I have an Islander 34 with late model A4. The previous owner replaced the exhaust manifold and head gasket about 5 years ago. Since then the engine has accrued about 100 hours (maybe less). Currently the compression is as follows:

#1= 100 psi
#2= 75 psi
#3= 75 psi
#4= 100 psi

Note that cylinders 2 and 3 always would have the same reading on any given compression test run whereas cyl 1 and 4 would vary somewhat.

I fabricated a leak down test setup and did a leak down test. From this I determined that cylinders 1 and 4 were OK but when the leak down was performed on cylinders 2 or 3 the pressure gauge dropped immediately and I could hear air rushing out the complementary cylinder, i.e. when attempting to pressurize cylinder 2 air could be heard blowing out the spark hole of cylinder 3 or visa versa. I have had power loss problems for the past few years but never enough to really affect our sailing experience (could never get above 1500 RPM). However, it seems that the wind has been less cooperative lately and we need to rely on the old iron jenny, so I would like to solve this power loss problem.

The immediate conclusion is that there is a blown head gasket that allows the exchange of air between cylinders 2 and 3. The leak down test I think concludes this fact. So today I removed the cylinder head and CANNOT find any evidence of blow-by via the gasket--it looks perfectly intact between cyl 2 and 3. As noted above, the PO replaced the head gasket and he used a graphite version which is Westerbeke's latest gasket style released in 1996. The PO only installed one per the Westerbeke bulletin on the subject. Apparently, per internet buzz, Victor makes this gasket and recommends two gaskets whereas Westerbeke recommended only one gasket. The gasket is made of very thin graphite material and appears rather flimsy.

Since I do not see any evidence of a cracked or scorched gasket is there any other way (besides a warped head) that the two cylinders could be shorted together as indicated by the leak down test?

I have not completely examined the valves but I don't see any way they could cause the observed problems unless I just can't see the forest for the trees.

Should I conclude that the head is warped and have it milled? Any suggestions?

Also, if I use the head gasket set on Don's web catalog when replacing the head, it is suggested to use two gaskets. I am afraid that with this thicker two gasket setup (as compared to the single gasket that was previously installed) the compression would go down in all cylinders because with one head gasket cylinders 1 and 4 barely maintained 100 psi. Another thing that comes to mind is if a copper head gasket set is used with a salt water cooled engine (as mine is) do I have to worry about electrolysis? Westerbeke, in their bulletin about the single graphite head gasket, states that it was introduced because of poor service life when using two of there standard head gaskets (presumable copper).

Any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Bruce

Last edited by Bruce A; 07-04-2011 at 03:36 AM.
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Old 07-04-2011, 06:22 AM
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Did you take a good look at the valves? Any possibility that the valves are not seating fully and the compression is leaking out that way?

Since you've got the head off, now would be a good time to consider replacing the valve springs and lapping the seats.
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Old 07-04-2011, 12:57 PM
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Hi Bill,

I have not completely investigated the valves--will do so today or tomorrow. I was hoping not to have to pull the manifold but I will if it necessary. I don't see how leaky valves could cause the exchange of air between cylinders 2 and 3. I seems that the air would just leak out through the intake and exhaust ports and not directly between the two cylinders.

My quick inspection of the valves indicated the usual fouling of the intake valves---exhaust look pretty clean. Also, the seats did not have much angle, is this typical of the A4? All-in-all the condition of the valves looked better than most of the pictures I have seen posted on the forum.

Another reason I am reluctant to take the valves apart is that I cannot get to the first three valves without cutting up a bulkhead, at least that is the way it appears.

Last thought, is there any way to clean up the valve surfaces without a complete disassembly?

Thanks
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Old 07-04-2011, 05:06 PM
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Here is a picture of the block with the manifold removed:



You will note that even though there are four cylinders, there are six holes.

Well, that's because some cylinders share intake/exhaust passages in the block and manifold.

Now, I don't specifically recall which cylinders share which passages, but if it might be the case that 2 and 3 share an intake passage, if you've got stuck intake valves, that could explain how air from 2 would leak into 3 and vice-versa.
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Last edited by ILikeRust; 07-04-2011 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 07-04-2011, 06:09 PM
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Thanks Bill,

Very good point about the communication through the shared ports--I did not know that they were shared in the A4. I guess if the throttle butterfly was closed, which it was when I did the leak down test, that air could have been diverted from one cylinder to the other through the shared port. I need to find out which ports are shared.

Is there any way to test for a leaky valve now that the head is off?

Bruce
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Old 07-05-2011, 12:05 PM
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I believe the term is "sistered" for the shared passages.
Only the intakes are sistered. The exhausts all have their own ports.

In Bill's picture, from left to right, the openings are
#1 exhaust
#1 & #2 intake
#2 exhaust
#3 exhaust
#3 & #4 intake
#4 exhaust

As you can see, #2 & #3 don't share a passage.

The only two ways to observe the behavior you're describing is either a blown head gasket between 2 & 3, or a cracked block. I'd say the gasket is far more likely. A crack would have to span the area between the #2 & #3 exhaust valves.

Are you sure the air was only coming out of the one other cylinder? Badly seating exhaust valves on 2 & 3 would allow air to leak into the manifold as well. This should be easy to check with the manifold off.
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Last edited by edwardc; 07-05-2011 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 07-06-2011, 03:27 AM
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IMHO, I would have re torqued all the head nuts...or at least checked them. Air could have been rushing between the two cylinders because of loosely torqued nuts, without head gasket failure or cracked block.
Then rechecked compression. Too late now though.

Now that the head is off I would clean off the carbon build up with "elbow grease" (chisel, razor blade, dental tools, etc...and acetone) Power loss can be the result of all that carbon build up. Carbon absorbs gas which means you are not getting the right fuel air mixture, hence power loss.

By the way, use 2 head gaskets. I'm sure everyone here will agree.

Also, I've never seen or heard of head warpage on this forum. Thererfore, I'm guessing it's highly unlikely.

About the valves, after cleaning, re-gap them. Exhaust is .12" and Intake is .10". Even the slightest turn of the adjustable part of the tappet makes a big difference. A wider gap is better than not wide enough. No gap or "short" gap means valves won't seat all the way, resulting in compression loss.
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Old 07-06-2011, 03:56 AM
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I appreciate the info on the sistering of the ports from Edward. I removed the manifold and valve train inspection plate today so that I could get a better look at things. As Edward pointed out, the Intakes are "sistered" and the exhausts have individual ports. So for my "problem" cylinders 2 and 3 could not directly exchange air through a sistered port since the sistering of intake ports occurs between cylinder 1 and 2 on one port and 3 and 4 on a separate port--no communication between 2 and 3. This afternoon had the head cleaned, magni-fluxed and checked for flatness. There are no cracks and the head is perfectly flat. So as Edward pointed it looks like a gasket problem. The engine re-builder that did the head work (who also rebuilds A4's on a regular basis) says it must be valves or rings or a combination of both that are causing my problem. I still don't see how valves could allow the obvious flow of air between cylinder 2 and 3 as it should just exit to atmospheric pressure if it leaked through a valve and would not be so obviously present in the adjacent cylinder.

Anyway, a detailed inspection of the valves indicate that cyl 2 exhaust may have a minor blemish in the area where the angled valve surface contacts the seat. Also, there are no stuck valves and no broken springs.

I have only 5 inches of clearance to bulkheads on the side of the engine where the valve access is so I find it hard to imagine using a spring compressor in that confined space. So I was wondering if any one has tried to lap the valves to remove minor surface pitting by applying valve grinding compound to the seat and the beveled valve surface, lowering the valve onto the seat and rotating the valve with the spring in place. I know this sounds strange but I tried it on a couple of valves and it is possible to rotate the valves by hand if you fine tune the pressure that the spring exerts i.e. rotate crank/cam very slowly while lower the valve onto the seat until you can still rotate the valve by pressing at the top of the valve for friction with one hand and spinning the bottom of the spring with the other (I can do this with the space limitations that I have to deal with). This way you can rotate valve and spring as an assembly and there is still substantial engagement of the valve face and the seat. After doing this to two valves with valve grinding compound I can see a noticeable improvement in the smoothness of the valve beveled surface (not sure how effective this on the valve seat as it is so hard to see in there). It is somewhat hard on the fingers but it can be done. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how effective this might be OR can it be detrimental to the valve train?

Thanks to all for this great forum.

Bruce

Last edited by Bruce A; 07-06-2011 at 04:08 AM.
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Old 07-06-2011, 04:02 AM
Bruce A Bruce A is offline
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I posted the above reply before reading Jim's comments. To clarify, I did re-torqued the head when doing the compression checks several months ago and it did not change the compression readings. And (as indicated in my new post) the head is flat as pancake as Jim suggested it probably would be.

Thanks,

Bruce

Last edited by Bruce A; 07-06-2011 at 04:33 AM.
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Old 07-06-2011, 07:30 AM
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Hey, if that works for you and you can get the valves lapped, go for it.

My sole concern would be getting all the grit cleaned out of there.
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:35 PM
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Bill and Ed,

I have a compressor, shop vac and every cleaning agent known to man onboard so i think i can get the grit out. So I guess I will proceed.

To answer Ed's question I do believe that their was some air flowing into the intake manifold because when I put my ear to the carb inlet I could hear a slight hiss. I could not hear or otherwise specifically detect exhaust valve leakage while doing the leak down test but I would not doubt that their was some leakage based on my observation of the condition of #2 exhaust valve. But definitely the bulk of the air was flowing cylinder to cylinder--I could put my cold wet finger above the spark plug hole of the complementary cylinder and feel the air rushing by. Maybe the head gasket did not seal properly because the PO only used one instead of two gaskets?

Also, for Ed, you said in your previous post that it would be easy to determine if there was an exhaust valve leak in #'s 2 and 3 now that the manifold was off? Is this just by observation of the valve surface or is there some test I am not aware of?

Jim suggested very carefully adjusting the valves which i will do when finished. I have not done this in an A4 and I don't see any lock nut on the adjuster. Is there a lock nut or do you just crank the adjuster to the specified gap and hope it stays there?

Thanks again,

Bruce

Last edited by Bruce A; 07-06-2011 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:58 PM
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Hi Bruce...regarding your valve adjustment questions...you need to read the thread below!

No locknut.

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2927
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Old 07-06-2011, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce A View Post
Also, for Ed, you said in your previous post that it would be easy to determine if there was an exhaust valve leak in #'s 2 and 3 now that the manifold was off? Is this just by observation of the valve surface or is there some test I am not aware of?
What I was refering to, unfortunately, requires the head to be still on. You rotate the engine until both valves are closed (TDC on the compression) and listen or feel for air on the associated exhaust port. It may also be possible to to replace the spark plug with a fitting and use an air source instead.
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Old 07-06-2011, 05:36 PM
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Thanks Ed,

That clarifies it.

I have another question for the forum:

My head came off very easily (took about 20 minutes) and only one stud came out in the process. All studs are in good shape (including the one that came out) with no evidence of rust or corrosion. It would be easier to clean the block with all studs removed but with my luck I would probably break one (or five) of them. Is it OK to leave the studs in as I proceed to clean things up and reinstall the head or is it really necessary to remove all the studs?

Note that the gasket came off as single piece and any residue on the block surface seems easy to remove.

Bruce

Last edited by Bruce A; 07-07-2011 at 02:57 AM.
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Old 07-06-2011, 05:44 PM
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It is definitely possible to do the job without removing the studs. I've done it twice that way. The head is a little fussier to get off and on that way but it does work.

One secret for cleaning this way is to get a good sharp 1/4 inch wood chisel to clean up the thin strip of block outside of the studs on the manifold side. This tool works really well for that purpose. Just be sure to keep it at a very shallow angle so you don't gouge the block surface.
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Old 07-08-2011, 02:36 AM
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There is no locking nut but you'll see it takes a bit of force to move the adjusting nut with two wrenches...I don't think you will have to hope it stays there. Should be good for a couple years anyway.
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Old 07-16-2011, 12:45 PM
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Hi All,

Well I have removed the valves on the A4. It was very difficult to get 4 of the keepers unstuck but I finally got them loose. On inspection, the exhaust valve tops from #2  are burned/warped---each of the valve faces look identical in that they have a deep depression which is about 15% of the circumference of the face. Exhaust valve from #4 has a deep gouge in the valve face but does not have the burned/warped appearance of the other two damaged valves. These three valves are too far gone for grinding (I think) so I will be ordering 3 new exhaust valves.

I don't see how the leaking exhaust valves could have caused the flow of air between #2 and #3 as observed in my leak-down test but I guess I will never know.

The exhaust valve from #1 is in good shape as are all four intake valves. The valve lapping produced good results on seats and faces of the 5 valves that were lappable (is lappable really a word?). I will have to wait until I get the 3 new valves to see how those seats come out after lapping.

I have some questions on reassembly:

1. My existing valve springs are 1.830 inches in free length and I purchased a couple of new springs from Moyer Marine but noticed that they are much, much longer---2.235 inches. The free length specs I have seen on these springs from Universal range from1.825 to 2.075 inches. My engine is 1968-1969 vintage so I think the 1.825 length in OK. My question is: Should I reuse my existing springs; replace all springs with the new longer ones; replace just those springs on the failed valves? I have not had any problems with stuck valves so it seems to me that the longer springs may put extra load on the cam lobes and bearing. I would appreciate any thoughts or experiences with these new springs.

2. How do you reinstall the valve springs--I find it very hard to get them back in---is there a trick? (The longer springs seem to be almost impossible to get in.)

Thanks for all your help.

Bruce

Last edited by Bruce A; 07-16-2011 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 07-16-2011, 01:23 PM
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Bruce,
Hi.
Just a couple of thoughts about the valves; You might think about bringing all the valves to a small custom auto machine shop and have them ground to see if they are good. This will show any warping, cracks, or burned faces that sometimes are hard to see just looking at them. This is fairly cheap and some shops will take an interest in your project and give some advice. Order new valves after you assess the old ones.

Also: consider all new springs from Ken at MMI. I ordered them and was impressed by how weak my old ones were when I compared them to the new.
Weak springs can contribute to burning valves. The MMI springs are stainless steel and are just better. That same machine shop can test your old springs if you need to economize. The spec is somewhere on this site. 38 lbs is not too much pressure.

cheers,
Russ

Update:

The specs for the springs are in this post from Don(the man):

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...28&postcount=8
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Old 07-17-2011, 06:31 AM
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I would replace all springs with new, while you've got it open. The springs are not terribly expensive and it sounds like your old ones probably are tired. Just IMHO, I think it's worth it to make sure those valves are snapping shut quickly and fully.

Do you have a valve spring compressor? That definitely helps get it in there. It is tricky, though - particularly if you're doing it with the engine in place in the boat.
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Old 07-29-2011, 04:27 PM
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Well I have replaced all valve springs and two exhaust valves (#2 and #3) and lapped them into the seats. I think i will be OK, however, one seat is a little wide per spec.

At this point I am reassembling the engine and have a couple of questions as follows:

1. Is anti-seize compound used to coat the cylinder head studs before dropping on the head?

2. Is the exhaust/intake manifold gasket installed dry or does it need Permatex? In Don's description of what gaskets need a sealant I did not see any mention of the manifold gasket one way or the other.

Thanks for any input,

Bruce
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Old 07-29-2011, 04:36 PM
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Talking

I would not use anti/never seize on those threads. Those products contain a cocktail of metals that create a complicated galvanic cell that can harm the block. Better to use the Permatex #2, thick and gooey, and effective in sealing off the water chambers. Regarding the manifold gasket, I don't use any gasket sealer there, but do ensure the three studs have the Permatex in the threads.
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Old 07-29-2011, 11:37 PM
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The head is installed (without anti seize) and the manifold is scheduled for day after tomorrow. I will install the manifold dry.

Thanks for the tips.

Bruce
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Old 08-01-2011, 01:03 AM
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Well the saga continues.

The engine is reassembled and it started on the first click. Before starting I did a leak down test and compression test---the numbers were not impressive but the engine was cold with a new valve lap job and new exhaust valves which have not seated in yet so I would expect poor numbers until the engine is running for awhile. It runs better than before in that it is very smooth and has more power---enough more power that it is now causing the direct drive to completely slip out of gear at about 1900 RPM (never got beyond about 1500 RPM before the tear down). So it needs more evaluation.

The bad news is that the engine leaks like a sieve when running---every bolt in the water jacket is leaking profuse amounts of Permatex Aviation sealant diluted with sea water. Also two of the manifold bolts are dripping which were sealed with Permatex. They all had between 16 and 36 hours cure time.

This is really frustrating after trying to do every thing the correct way. I guess I should just coat every bolt with JB Weld. I just don't understand why the standard Permatex Aviaition sealant would be desolved by the cooling water (it is salt water). (Maybe Permatex is now made in China?)

Would some sort of super high strength Loctite be better than this Permatex Aviation stuff? Or maybe just maybe if I ignore the water flowing out of the bolts they may just rust up and not be a problem after a few weeks.

Help!

Bruce

Last edited by Bruce A; 08-01-2011 at 04:03 AM.
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Old 08-01-2011, 04:03 AM
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For my water jacket I used brass washers (as recommended by Ken at Moyer marine) . Apparently they compress enough (softer metal than steel) to help seal the bolts.

Also, try tightening them a bit more. I had this problem with a bolt or to during my last rebuild. Tightening them stopped the water leaks.

The block threads and bolt threads have to have a coat of permatex as well and they have to be in good condition to handle the torque applied.

If you have suspect threads in the block I'd recommend the Moyer water jacket side plate repair kit. I used two kits on mine and they work like a charm. Very pricey at 30 bucks but for me it was very worth it. Follow the instructions and, Don't give up.

Also, the two matting surfaces (side plate and block) have to be as flat as possible. I used a wire wheel on a drill to flatten the crap out of each surface. It works.

That side plate is an Art, not a science.

You can do it!



The reversing gear can be adjusted to handle the slippage. If you can't find the procedure in the faq's or tech tips (or moyer manual) section of this site I can talk you through it or someone else here can help.

For engine studs, such as manifold studs or head studs I'm pretty sure the recommended sealer is Loctite Red. Worked on my head studs and the new valve cover studs I installed on my recent rebuild.

Another also, before applying any sealer, the surfaces for which the sealer is applied should be very clean (grease/oil free). You can use acetone, carb cleaner or even brake cleaner to clean the surfaces. It's also important to "paint" the sealer onto the gasket (bolt, thread, etc..) and let it set (skin over) til tacky to the touch. Then install the parts as prescribed.
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Last edited by jpian0923; 08-01-2011 at 04:25 AM.
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:49 AM
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Wow, sorry to hear of your leaking problems there.

Mine was tight as a drum, first time out - didn't leak a drop.

Did you Permatex the gasket to the side plate? As I recall, Moyer advises applying Permatex to the gasket side of the plate, so that if you need to remove it, the gasket will come with the plate, but not stick to the block. Come to think of it, being that it's just the water jacket, and you shouldn't have to remove it all that often for any service (unlike the valve chamber cover plate), I might just go ahead and Permatex both sides (which I can't recall, but I might have done that on mine).

And then plenty of Permatex on the bolt threads, and use the copper washers.

Get them good and snug.

I'm surprised you're having that much leakage. Was there a lot of rust pitting on the block or side plate?
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