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Old 03-05-2011, 11:09 PM
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Another electric FWC system installed

Here are a few pics of Kalina's new FWC system with electric circulation pump.

It would have been much easier to spring for the Moyer kit rather than driving all over creation to gather up the parts but unfortunately in my case the Moyer system would not work. Besides having a Catalina 30 with zero room in front of the engine for a PTO pulley, I also have a water heater mounted higher than the engine. Soooo, hello electric coolant pump and header tank.

Here's a drawing of my system

Here's the heat exchanger in place. Note that the hoses are color coded, black for the coolant circuit, red for raw water.
FWC HX.jpg

and the electric pump. The clear hose is so I can see the coolant.
FWC Electric Pump.jpg

The header tank and recovery bottle are located under the V berth adjacent to the water heater
FWC Header Tank Under V Berth.jpg

it's normally not visible
FWC Header Tank Concealed.jpg

Continued on the next post due to picture limitations.
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:15 PM
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Electric FWC continued

Here's the engine compartment, getting pretty full in there. Note the reversed manifold plumbing.
FWC Engine Compartment.jpg

And upon completion, two toasts: one to the previous owner and one to this group. Without you guys this would not have happened.
FWC A Toast to the Project.jpg
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:21 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
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Question

Neil - What type of pressure cap did you choose for the header tank? Very neat workmanship! Look out, Jerry!
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:25 PM
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One more detail

With electric FWC, one area in need of thorough cleaning and (IMO) modification is the sideplate diverter Tee and water jacket. I enlarged mine to 1/2" NPT and routed the coolant hoses around the front of the engine leaving the back of the engine for the raw water hoses.

I broke one of the mounting bolts removing the cover so I installed stainless studs with Loctite instead, figuring I'd rather have the fastening nuts outside the water jacket. If the studs get frozen in place, so be it, don't care anymore.
FWC Sideplate Studs in Place.jpg

Here are both sides of my modified sideplate. Note the new, larger alternator bracket that spans two bolts rather than one to spread the load.
FWC Sideplate w new Alt Bracket.jpg
FWC Diverter Cap.jpg

Here it is with the coolant hoses plumbed
FWC Sideplate Plumbed.jpg
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
Neil - What type of pressure cap did you choose for the header tank? Very neat workmanship! Look out, Jerry!
For now I have a 7 lb. cap but I'm looking for a 4 lb. My comfort zone is:
  1. Don includes a 7 lb. cap with his kit.
  2. My water jacket appears to be in really good condition.

With the sideplate off I poked and vacuumed up as much crud as possible (wasn't that much to my surprise but then I recently acid washed the system), then water jetted the remainder, got it really clean.
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:33 PM
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Great looking work, Neil.

Thanks for posting.
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:34 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
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Nice treatment on that side plate. The studs make a lot of sense avoiding removal and possible block damage every time the plate comes off. That alternator bracket is another breakthru.
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
Nice treatment on that side plate. The studs make a lot of sense avoiding removal and possible block damage every time the plate comes off. That alternator bracket is another breakthru.
Can't take credit for the bracket, copied it from someone else. I should have mentioned I used brass nuts on the stainless studs so if something wants to lock up solid, the softer hex nuts are sacrificial.
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:53 PM
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Very Nice work Neil.

I am a little curious what the temperature differential will be between the RW intake and the temp at the injection point at the exhaust input. A lot cooler than what it was previously I would assume?
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Old 03-06-2011, 12:21 AM
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Neil,
I'm sure that there will be a lot of "applause" when the "early to bed", East coast folks see your post, so I'll get my cheer in now. You have truly done a textbook job of design engineering and execution on your system.
Bravo, Tom
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Old 03-06-2011, 12:28 AM
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Well thanks Tom (both Toms)

It remains to be seen if it works. I have yet to fill 'er up with coolant (conflicted on the type) and start testing, IR thermometer at the ready.

Coolant conflict
I have a variety of metals in my system: A-4 alloy iron, brass, stainless, copper and aluminum. I want the benefit of rust inhibiting properties of ethylene glycol but don't want to eat up vulnerable metals. Safer propylene glycol has a reputation of organic slime, less to no rust inhibitors and limited life. Looks like once again, life is a compromise. It's never clear cut and simple. I need to decide by tomorrow.
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Old 03-06-2011, 01:58 PM
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Lightbulb Cap

Hanley, why not a "O" preassure cap. I have had need of running with no praessure in a few instances. What I did was take a functiong preassure cap and drilled a 1/8 inch hole in it. It still sealed so the coolant level was maintained but without preassure. Might be what you are looking for.

Regards Dave Neptune
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Old 03-06-2011, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
...Very neat workmanship! Look out, Jerry!
Ahhh, does my heart good to see it!
Very nice Neil!
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Old 03-06-2011, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
Hanley, why not a "O" preassure cap. I have had need of running with no praessure in a few instances. What I did was take a functiong preassure cap and drilled a 1/8 inch hole in it. It still sealed so the coolant level was maintained but without preassure. Might be what you are looking for.

Regards Dave Neptune
I had an 8 lb cap and I just cut away about 2/3 of the spring. The most pressure I've ever seen on the system is 2 lbs and did not loose any coolant.
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Old 03-06-2011, 10:10 PM
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Thumbs up

Neil, looks great!

Lots of things folks like me may want to copy when we do our FWC conversion!
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Old 03-07-2011, 09:32 AM
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nice but

very nice clean setup but I see two potential problems
the clear hose on the pump is only rated for 150 degree water
the pump is in wrong orentation they suggest either horizontal or vertical with motor up not down as you have
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Old 03-07-2011, 09:52 AM
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Thanks sailbristol but not to worry, things are a changin'.

I'm posting this a little early as I have little real information but yesterday I tested the system for the first time and the cooling capacity of the HX is insufficient. It's a single pass exchanger. I had a nagging concern when I first realized it but figured I'd give it a try anyway. You'll see in my posts a recurring theme of "Let's see if it works."

Other than that, everything else worked beautifully, electric pump had excellent flow, header tank position and plumbing functioned well, the entire system purged itself of air easily. I'll be testing a borrowed HX this week and pending a successful test, will be shopping for a multi-pass HX. Everything I've seen so far will have the pump mounted differently and because of that there will no longer be a concern over an air pocket at the pump, the reason for the clear hose in the first place. And frankly, I wasn't expecting temps over 160 anyway.

Too bad, that stainless HX sure was purdy.
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Old 03-08-2011, 08:45 PM
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Update

Replaced the HX with a borrowed one and ran her up at the slip with some moderate alternator load and no thermostat. Temp never exceeded 140 so the original stainless HX is confirmed to be of insufficient capacity. Of particular note is the performance of the Mustang supercharger intercooler electric pump, couldn't be happier.

Just now pulled the trigger on a new Sendure HX. Update to follow when there's something to report.
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Old 03-23-2011, 12:30 AM
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Thumbs up Follow-up

Electric FWC system is complete and tested, works great. I had my share of problems but they were easily resolved thanks to the generous help of a listmate both with the loan of a heat exchanger for testing and as a sounding board. You know who you are, my deepest thanks. Fortunately none of the tweaks required a departure from the original design. Here's the latest:
  1. My original stainless heat exchanger was a single pass type and didn't have enough thermal exchange capacity. Installed and tested, it ran up to 200.
  2. I installed and tested a borrowed 2 pass exchanger, engine ran at 140, solid as a rock.
  3. Purchased a 2 pass exchanger, modified the fittings slightly, painted it up (presentation is everything) and installed it Sunday. Started the engine to test, engine died after 60 seconds.
  4. Pulled the carb, brought it home and cleaned it up (hadn't been done in at least 2 years), re-installed it tonight, primed the bowl and started the engine. Ran for 60 seconds and died.
  5. Primed the bowl again, started the engine, ran for 60 seconds and died. Y'know, it's a sign of mental illness when you repeat the same action and expect a different result but man, all I wanted to do was test my new FWC!!
  6. Jumpered the oil pressure safety switch (electric fuel pump) and started her up, ran smooth at the slip for an hour. Oil pressure gauge read normal. Running problem solved.
  7. Running at the slip with moderate alternator load, temp never went above 120 during the hour, exhaust manifold, heat exchanger and hoses were only warm to the touch, infrared thermometer read around 117 on the manifold and hoses, 95 on the HX shell, 45 on the bottle of beer. Cross another project off the list.

Didn't have the camera with me at the boat but here are some pics of the replacement exchanger prior to installation.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Sendure 1.jpg (80.9 KB, 194 views)
File Type: jpg Sendure 2.jpg (79.0 KB, 193 views)
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Old 03-23-2011, 08:40 AM
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Way to go, Neil!

When the dust settles, would you consider posting the make, model, dimensions, etc. for the single pass HX? Sometimes, it just as important to know what didn't work as it is to know what did.

Bill
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Old 03-23-2011, 09:25 AM
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We learn more from our failures

The single pass exchanger was an absolutely gorgeous fabrication of unknown origin. I found it on eBay for $75 and after learning it was unsatisfactory, sold it on eBay in 4 hours for $75. The gentleman who bought it is using it in a chemical process, I suspect that was the intent of the design in the first place.

As I said in a previous post, neither the Moyer nor Indigo systems would work for me due to zero clearance at the flywheel and a water heater in the loop mounted higher than the engine. Because of that I was left to my own devices to assemble a system. For those in a similar position, an important feature in selecting an exchanger besides the multiple pass design is the internal tube bundle. It's common in engine type exchangers, not so in others. My original exchanger didn't have the tube bundle and that should have been a red flag right there. I treated it as a yellow flag and although it didn't cost me any additional money it did add about three weeks to the project finding and installing a replacement.

Here's a pic of the unsatisfactory exchanger. There were no markings on it anywhere but it had the look of professional manufacture, certainly not home grown.

FWC 001.jpg

The dimensions were similar to other exchangers used successfully on A-4's. 3" diameter x approx. 16" length. I learned the hard way that what goes on inside means more than dimension.
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Old 03-23-2011, 09:37 AM
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Thumbs up Oooo..nice!

Neil, looking good..

For those of us stumbling down this same road, what are the hose & fitting sizes you were able to get on the installed HX? I know we've discussed some data offline that you thought at least 1/2" NPT as the minimum (I've had plenty of success locating reasonably priced HX's with 3/8" NPT ) - but I also know you have the out-of-the-ordinary hot water loop in yours too. So, I was just curious what yours ended up being...hard to tell from the pics since there isn't really a good frame of reference.
My current thought is that I'd like to go 1/2" NPT & 5/8" hose wherever possible.
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Old 03-23-2011, 09:51 AM
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All hoses, both salt and fresh water, are 5/8" with one exception - the hose from the electric pump discharge to the sideplate Tee is 3/4". The raw water pump and header tank fittings are 3/8" NPT x 5/8" hose barb. Manifold elbows are 1/2" NPT x 5/8" hose barb. The exchanger came with 1" copper elbows on the FW side and 1/2" elbows on the RW side. I kept the 1/2" RW elbows as they were a perfect fit for 5/8" hose. I reduced the FW elbows to fit either the electric pump (1/2" NPT) or water heater hose (5/8").

Based on previous flow testing and this installation process I would consider 3/8" NPT and 5/8" hose minimum sizes for electric FWC. I have numerous 3/8" NPT fittings and a long water heater loop in the system and I'm very satisfied with my coolant flow rate. You won't have the water heater loop so you should be even better off.

You may recall that I was holding out the option of an additional electric pump to boost the flow through the water heater loop. As of right now there's no need, excellent flow with the single pump and the fitting sizes as noted.

edit:
As this electric FWC concept is relatively new, until we have decades of reliable pump operation behind us I feel rather strongly that a complete and proper electric FWC system includes carrying a spare pump onboard.
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Old 03-23-2011, 11:54 AM
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Here's an updated drawing with the new exchanger.


edit:
and a couple of pictures
Attached Images
File Type: jpg FWC 009.jpg (133.4 KB, 192 views)
File Type: jpg FWC 006.jpg (104.7 KB, 193 views)
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Old 04-02-2011, 08:25 PM
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Thumbs up It's a Wrap

I went sailing today and put the new electric FWC system to the test. 6.3 knots at 2000 RPM and temp rock solid at 180. Couldn't be happier.
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