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  #26   IP: 206.125.176.3
Old 09-14-2009, 03:10 PM
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maybe the key is to refuel when you don't need to use the motor!

What trigger do the halon systems use? Smoke,heat,smell,fire?
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Old 09-14-2009, 05:49 PM
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Well it is good to know that maintenance and attention to details pays off.

I wouldn't have guessed electric heaters. I just replaced a large, but reliable, electric heater with a newer more compact, but cheaper, model. Now you have me thinking about this. I had added wide strips of wood across the feet of the older unit and was is difficult to topple it, even if you accidentally kick it. Also, the enclosure was metal, the filament was protected, etc. Can you recommend a good heater? Electric or otherwise?

Yup, the stove is alcohol. I learned not to use it except at the slip or in calm waters. Although the alcohol canisters don't drip (I verified this on land), mine easily jostle out of their clips when underway and the flames get redirected when that happens - and there is no indication of this until you smell something burning or touch something hot that usually doesn't get hot. I have an ORIGO and it definitely needs to be treated with kid gloves.

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Old 09-14-2009, 07:57 PM
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Steve, It's not the heater itself, it's the amp's it draws. Occurs on a cold morning every time when all that draw finds a weak link in the system. Usually the 30 amp boat cord plug or the 15 amp it's plugged into.

It's not a shorting but a poor connection that begins to arc and overheat. Don't ever use a heater when not aboard. A boat that burns in the slip takes out it's next door neighbors. The powerboat that burns in a covered slip can take out the whole marina.

Sastanley, The haylons heat trip at around 250.
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Old 09-15-2009, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveMarkowski View Post
With respect to putting out fires, I suspect that there is not a lot of experience using fire extinguishers.
Good point, Steve. We run a fire extinguisher seminar in our community for boaters. They discharge their own extinguishers in a pan fire, and the company gives a discount to recharge them.
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Old 09-15-2009, 07:44 AM
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Steve, A bit off topic but could you give a little more detail as to how the Origo canister popped out of it's clip. I have the Origo 6000 two burner w/oven and have found it to be nothing if not super safe. Once the lid is latched down I don't see how anything would be able to move. Mine also has a lock of sorts that prevents the lid from opening unless both burners are 100% closed. i find this unit to be much safer than the old pressurized stove it repaced.

I think I'll be stopping by the Haylon booth at this years boat show..


good stuff.

Mike
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Old 09-15-2009, 08:51 AM
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Oh yeah. . . that little screw that holds the top down and secured to the basin. Mike, I wonder where I put that.

Basically, three ell shaped flanges welded to the basin bottom hold the canisters centered under the burner openings. Under the canisters are finger springs spot welded to the basin and they push the canister up against the bottom of the burner opening.

I have seen the canister escape from the three centering clips. But maybe this is because the top of the stove was not secured down onto the stove. (Duh) This seems reasonable as the springs, which push the canister up, also push up on the stove top, letting the canisters rise above the top of the clips. I will check this out.

Steve
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Old 09-15-2009, 01:45 PM
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Hi guys.
I too run the blower all the time when running the motor.
You've all raised good points about getting better blowers and fire protection. I will probably look in to this more next spring.

I use about three to four gallons a year on my boat, and my fuel tank is old and probably full of poo. I am considering going to a much smaller day tank that is removable for the long time that I leave the boat unused in the slip. This means fresher gas, and not so big a fire hazard when I am not there. I don't cruise and if If I need more gas for an over-niter I might just have an extra can on deck.

The new day tank and filters would probably go in the huge gas locker in the laz that the PO installed for the propane. This locker is properly vented and all.

Cheers,

Russ
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Last edited by lat 64; 09-15-2009 at 01:48 PM. Reason: punctuashun
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Old 09-12-2010, 08:30 PM
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Gandalf's fire

Here's info on the fire Shawn mentioned:
http://www.anything-sailing.com/show...-Mackinac-Race
Speculation also in this thread:
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/ind...pic=93960&st=0
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  #34   IP: 71.191.250.44
Old 09-13-2010, 08:22 AM
keelcooler keelcooler is offline
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A safe gas system

Dear a4 friends, I have preformed hundreds of cause and origin investigations on boat fires through the years and can assure you there are common themes when it comes gas engine boat fires. Gas motors are safe as long as all related systems are properly installed and maintained. Also a responsible owner must follow common sense precautions. I believe if the following precautions are religiously followed boating w/ our a4ís will be completely safe.


Get intimate w/ and know your fuel system from top to bottom. Inspect often and provide good access. Our components are old, they live in a hostile salt air environment, old stuff just fails. Take care of it before it does and always have your antenna up looking for those beginning signs of a problem.

If you smell gas there are explosive fumes aboard. You must act accordingly and locate the source. Gas evaporates very quickly and those fumes travel down. They will puddle in a low spots and hang. The blower induction hose end is down low in the bilge as required. If fumes are hanging under the tank, vent line or fill your blower is just not going to evacuate them. Thatís why most explosions occur after refueling even when the blower was run an extended period of time before cranking. Surprisingly this type of fume explosion rarely results in a fire. No raw fuel, just explosive gas lighting off. After refueling open the lockers above or adjacent the tank, fill and vent lines. Vent and check for fumes every time. If this is not part of your refueling procedure make it so.

We all run our blowers and sniff the motor box/bilge areas before we start. Turn off the fuel feed after use. This is the no brainer procedure I hope everyone follows.

Make sure that all your systems are in compliance w/ USCG/ABYC codes. You must have the proper no more than 4 PSI marine electric fuel pump, not that NAPA auto pump that looks the same and pumps out 10 PSI plus. You must use an oil pressure safety switch (this is a biggie). I know it works fine w/out it but itís required for a reason. Go through your bilge/motor box/fuel tank compartments and confirm all electrical goodies are spark resistant marine rated.

Done any mods? Is that AC/DC refrigerator you installed sticking into the engine space. Yes itís marine rated but is it spark resistant? Likely not. Got some old stuff in there from the 60ís or 70ís like that original blower or charger. Think itís still spark resistant? By the way unless itís vapor proof itís not 100% safe. No vapor proof electrical stuff sold at west marine except that propane solenoid switch. In fact you should assume you are going to have a spark once in a while, because you will.

Think running that 50 buck blower all the time is good? Donít let that give you a false sense of security. In fact it can over heat and start a fire in the plastic squirrel cage housing. Itís just not made to run more than 10 minutes tops before being allowed to cool down. When you get them that hot how long do you think that thin plastic internal spark resistant shielding is going to last and not deform. This is one device you do not want to spit a spark.
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  #35   IP: 206.40.166.218
Old 09-13-2010, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keelcooler View Post
In fact you should assume you are going to have a spark once in a while, because you will.
Keel,

Can you recommend a blower suitable for continuous use, or at least describe the specs of such a blower?

Mark
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Old 09-13-2010, 04:25 PM
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Thumbs up blower hose extension

keelcooler - thanks for bringing this thread back up.

After this discussion last year, and subsequent thoughts on my own, I have extended my bilge blower hose all the way to the bilge, in front of the motor, just above where it might get wet from sloshing bilge water. The old hoses terminated under the stairs at the termination of the quarterberth bulkhead, and were laying 'in the bilge area', but technically were no where near the low part of the bilge where fuel vapors would likely hang out.

The blower itself has to work a little bit harder now, but I can feel the blower sucking out thru the extended hose at the bilge since the end is now accessible and not under some cabinetry 5 feet away...this is also a good test when I stick my nose down there for a sniff test that it is actually sucking air...the discharge hose at the cowl vent likes to fill up with rain water and even though the blower is running, no air is actually being evacuated...so I have to empty that once a season or so. Now I know the blower is actually working since I have access to both ends.
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Old 09-13-2010, 05:01 PM
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Keelcooler, that's the best post I've ever seen on the topic. Good reminders to us all.
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Old 09-13-2010, 06:35 PM
keelcooler keelcooler is offline
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Mark, Best price I could find Jamestown distributors ITT Jabsco # ITT357600092, flange mount model. These are not on the shelf at west marine. Dave has a continuous duty model and may have a better source. They can move some airÖ put on an extension like Shawn and it can double as a central vac system.

Continuous duty blowers are available for just under $300. You mostly see this model blower serving a motor generator box/soundshield. A good blower venting your box all the time is good. A hot cheep blower running all the time is bad.

Most of our boats have 3" blower systems. All heavy duty blowers are 4" and will require 12 amp draw. If you upgrade make sure your wiring can handle and install 15 amp fusing.
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  #39   IP: 142.68.244.201
Old 09-14-2010, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keelcooler View Post
All heavy duty blowers are 4" and will require 12 amp draw.
That, the weight and the noise are downsides in small sailboats. What does a continuous 12 amp draw do to fuel consumption and alternator wear?
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Old 09-14-2010, 09:43 AM
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The big boy blowers are just not practical for our boats. Power demands and cost alone take it right off the table. I for one see no benefit except may be keeping the cabin a little bit cooler. Iíll just open the forward hatch and ports thank you. Seems like a foolís game to think it adds safety to our fuel systems. At worst it may even mask a leak/fume problem. To get the additional air movement benefit you need to fit 4Ē cowlings. My 3Ē take most of the rear deck as it isÖIím not cutting in any man holes in my deck. Did I mention the noise and vibration? Dave found it necessary to install shock mounts. On this one, lots of cons and few if any pros.

Just operate your blower as instructed by the builder and turn it off after starting. Millions of gas boat owners do it safely every weekend. Bilge and fuel safety is all about system knowledge and proper preventive maintenance. If your thinking safety enhancements spend the money on a fume detector, CO detector and auto haylon.
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Old 09-14-2010, 09:49 AM
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I second the motion on the automatic extinguisher in the engine room, not required by the Coast Guard but a huge safety upgrade. As for the 12 amp draw, according to Don Moyer's information that would be slightly less than 1/2 horsepower. Additional alternator wear would be negligible.
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Old 09-14-2010, 12:21 PM
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I recently found out my FILL HOSE was leaking. That isn't something that get checked all that often. It was also dropping rubber bits into the tank, which I suspect might still be the cause of some of my fuel feed issues.
As for automatic extinguishers, I don't see how they would help a fuel explosion. When they go off, it is already too late
That said, I do have one.
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Old 09-14-2010, 12:37 PM
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Smile

I guess the logic behind the automatic fire extinguisher in the engine room is that since you have to have 2 B-5 units anyway, why not put one of them in the place where it is likely to do some good in the event? But in addition I carry an additional 2 B-5 units. After all, as the fishermen say, "...if enough is enough, more is better!"
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Old 09-14-2010, 12:54 PM
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I wanted to address something Dave mentioned, the fume sniffer. Strangely I don't see it talked up much on this site, a site involving gasoline in boats. Xintrex makes models that simply alarm audibly and models that automatically activate the bilge blower in addition to the alarm. I have the latter.

As effective as the halon systems are, Joe's remark that they engage after it's too late is well made. Also, properly installed, the halon systems shut down the blower so as not to ventilate a fire and exhaust the halon.

The fume sniffer is intended to either alert you or exhaust the dangerous fumes before the worst happens. On another thread I told the tale of fumbling my fuel filter upside down in the bilge and the Xintrex system alarmed and activated the blower automatically within seconds.

I'm thinking a combination of the sniffer and automatic halon systems would be the best of both worlds.
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Old 09-14-2010, 02:10 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Easy Blower Test

A few years ago, on a whim, I turned the blower on and then went to the bilge and put my hand over the end of the tube. I didn't feel any air being pulled by. When I blocked the end of the tube entirely the blower motor did not lug down or change in pitch.

I found a large hole in the tube right up next to the blower motor.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 09-14-2010, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keelcooler View Post
Just operate your blower as instructed by the builder and turn it off after starting.
Keel,

There was some debate last year, maybe in this post, about running the blower continuously while the engine was on, hence my interest in a continuously operating blower. I think Dave was the principal proponent of continuous operation. As quoted above, however, you seem to think differently.

Can we resolve this debate? I'll stay where I am if I can turn the blower off after starting the engine.

Mark
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Old 09-14-2010, 08:00 PM
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John, Lots of torn low quality blower hoses out in service, and the owners have no clue because they are not inspecting. INSPECT,INSPECT,INSPECT, the life of you and your family depends on it. Make sure its not torn, shagging or fitted w/a birds nest. Marine centers for the most part sell only crap 3” hoses. Get your new blower hose at Lowes. I replaced my crap, torn hose years ago w/ the foil covered stuff for dryers…much better.

An auto haylon will not eliminate or reduce an explosive fume condition. A haylon only works once a motor box fire has started. It will activate around 250 degrees and displaces the oxygen. If the blowers running it might not starve out that fire. You must have the proper size unit for the space and then add 20% for naturally occurring venting. The auto haylon is effective in the event of an electrical or raw fuel fire in the box.

The posted a4 C&C story has a telling tale. Exploded and burned after refueling. So we had fumes and raw fuel. No fumes in the cabin that the capt or crew could detect. So the fumes were aft. If that carb or a fitting/hose near the motor was involved in all likely hood some one would have detected. She had run extensively during the day. Does not sound like the motor was involved; the blower was running prior to start. I would speculate fuel fill hose or deck fill fitting leak. If the tank was the problem I would think some one would have smelled the fumes early in the day. If the vent hose had failed or become detached it may have been an explosion only.

What Joe found recently is what I would find 90%of the time during postmortem inspections on an explosion after a refueling loss. FUEL FILLS…don’t let yours be out of sight and out of mind.

You would not believe how may times I’ve seen a broken/rusted out fill system fail after the owner inserted the fuel pump nozzle. “How much now honey…35 gallons…that’s imposable we have a 25 gallon tank” or the power boat that pumps 100 gallons into his bilge! Funny thing, when it’s that fuel rich of a mixture they rarely blow or burn.

Mark, I think with all of the above facts we can draw our own conclusions. I just can’t see how it does any good. I have a haylon and if a box fire erupts I want that haylon to do its job and not have all its flame smothering gas sucked out. I think the engineers at Jabsco or Attwood would advise to use as directed. I think Dave is the only member that has an heavy duty 4” extended run blower that can safely operate all day w/out over heating. The rest of us have intermittent use rated units. I recall the continuous heavy duty rated should be replaced every 10,000 hrs where in ours should be replaced every 100 hrs of use This spec is not because it might fail, its because the spark shielding degrades.

Last edited by keelcooler; 09-14-2010 at 09:34 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 09-14-2010, 08:04 PM
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I installed a gas sniffer on a previous boat. It alarmed one day when we were all relaxing on lawn chairs at the dock. Got everybody jumping. Inspected carefully and could not find any sign of fuel leak or fume source. We never did find out why it went off, and it was OK after. Even tested it with a thimble of gasoline. I appreciated having it down there in the engine space. Two boat bucks ($200) and slight continuous drain on the battery.

Mark, I doubt there is a definitive answer about continuous blower versus what so many do in small sailboats: careful sniff and open hatches, then blower on before start, then blower off, and maybe ventilate the engine space with hatches up while running, especially on longer runs if heat builds up in the engine space, being mindful of carbon monoxide in living accomodations. I like Hanley's idea of adding passive ventilation in the high spots of the engine space to reduce heat in there if possible, but that isn't so easy for many of us.

The keys, as Keelcooler pointed out, are careful ongoing preventive maintenance and inspection of the fuel distribution system, spark-minimizing in engine space appliances, consistent sniff-ventilate practice when starting, and extreme caution after refueling.
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Old 09-14-2010, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigspelt View Post
I installed a gas sniffer on a previous boat. It alarmed one day when we were all relaxing on lawn chairs at the dock. Got everybody jumping. Inspected carefully and could not find any sign of fuel leak or fume source. We never did find out why it went off, and it was OK after. Even tested it with a thimble of gasoline. I appreciated having it down there in the engine space. Two boat bucks ($200) and slight continuous drain on the battery.

Mark, I doubt there is a definitive answer about continuous blower versus what so many do in small sailboats: careful sniff and open hatches, then blower on before start, then blower off, and maybe ventilate the engine space with hatches up while running, especially on longer runs if heat builds up in the engine space, being mindful of carbon monoxide in living accomodations. I like Hanley's idea of adding passive ventilation in the high spots of the engine space to reduce heat in there if possible, but that isn't so easy for many of us.

The keys, as Keelcooler pointed out, are careful ongoing preventive maintenance and inspection of the fuel distribution system, spark-minimizing in engine space appliances, consistent sniff-ventilate practice when starting, and extreme caution after refueling.
I had one of the xanrex gasoline alarms go off a couple of years ago
when it was knocked loose from its overhead mount under the cockpit sole]
and into bilge water. I was told that it needed to re replaced. The replacement cost for the sensor was in excess of $100
Regards
Art
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Old 09-15-2010, 12:04 AM
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One disturbing trend I've noticed with my power boat friends is that most of them only turn the blower on a few seconds before turning the key. This tells me most of them have no clue what the blower's job actually is. Good thing most of the issues we are discussing here never actually occur.
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