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  #76   IP: 97.93.70.7
Old 11-18-2019, 11:49 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Thumbs up Simple carb

AFisch, one thing for sure is that Palmer did not develop their own carb!! It is probably a single barrel held on with two flange bolts/studs, the cables and a fuel line.
Take a picture of the carb or remove it and take a few pics. The make and model number should be on the carb FOR EASY REFERANCE.
I would not doubt it being a Zenith as they were quite common for marine and farm use on many engines. A kit should not be an issue and perhaps the Palmer boyz know which carb you have and what kit is required, worth a check.
Do not trade in your carb yet, will get to why later if you go further.

I strongly recommend if you get some pics that you start a new Palmer thread to simplify our Afourian efforts.

Dave Neptune
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  #77   IP: 98.189.79.99
Old 11-18-2019, 12:20 PM
AFisch AFisch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
You seem to be running on one carburetor bowl full of fuel. When the carburetor bowl empties the engine shuts down.
How did you check the fuel pump operation when the engine wasn't running? If you bypassed the OPSS somehow and the fuel pump operated normally you've made the diagnosis - the OPSS has a problem.

TRUE GRIT
I am thinking the same thing...carb bowl full of fuel and then dies. The longer it sits, the longer it runs (to an extent). I honestly don't think I even have an OPSS.
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Old 11-18-2019, 12:23 PM
AFisch AFisch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
AFisch, one thing for sure is that Palmer did not develop their own carb!! It is probably a single barrel held on with two flange bolts/studs, the cables and a fuel line.
Take a picture of the carb or remove it and take a few pics. The make and model number should be on the carb FOR EASY REFERANCE.
I would not doubt it being a Zenith as they were quite common for marine and farm use on many engines. A kit should not be an issue and perhaps the Palmer boyz know which carb you have and what kit is required, worth a check.
Do not trade in your carb yet, will get to why later if you go further.

I strongly recommend if you get some pics that you start a new Palmer thread to simplify our Afourian efforts.

Dave Neptune
It's hard to get access to take a pic, but I'll work on trying to remove it. I am thinking the float might be sticky...but again I am far from being engine/carb savvy, learning as I go on this one.

Thanks for the advice, I will not trade it in yet...
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  #79   IP: 98.189.79.99
Old 11-18-2019, 12:24 PM
AFisch AFisch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
Do you have a fuel pressure gauge rigged yet? I have had issues I would *never* have found without one.
You either have a pump that somehow quits pumping or something in the carb that keeps clogging up.
I do not yet...it has been suggested before and I should have done that Saturday while I was down there....I did replace the pump, so it should be working fine...but I will get a fuel pressure gauge and get it installed./

Last edited by AFisch; 11-18-2019 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 11-18-2019, 09:04 PM
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sastanley sastanley is offline
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AFisch,

I am a little late into this thread, so apologies in advance if things below have already been mentioned.
No need to spend lots on a fuel pressure gauge. I have had great luck with the $15 Mr. Gasket 1561 on Amazon. It is a simple 1/8" NPT male fitting, so you need a female thread tee plus a couple male thread hose barbs that match your fuel line ID in between the fuel pump and carb. I would recommend some thread sealant too..like Permatex #3 Aviation in a jar with a brush...but anything designed for fuel will work.

It is the FIRST gauge I look at when my engine is running rough or sputtering. It instantly tells you the status of the fuel delivery system at least up to the carb...I don't know what PSI Palmer's like, but the A4 with a mechanical pump is about 3 PSI or so...but it will run all the way down to about 1 PSI, then it will start sputtering.

One more question on 'good fuel'...is the fuel laced with ethanol? If so, how old? Some of us have found yellow goopy gel in our carbs from ethanol fuel deposits (I think it is the corn turning gelatinous, but I am not a fuel expert.) I just quit running E-10 and lug jerry cans of E-0 to the boat. Some folks have no problem running E-10, but I got off the stuff for all of my small engines years ago...the tipping point for me was when I had 6 trees in the front yard from a hurricane and the fuel lines in my chain saw crumbled in my hand from ethanol fuel sitting in it. I also learned after that, especially with 2-stroke motors, to drain the fuel and run them dry if they are going to sit..
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Last edited by sastanley; 11-18-2019 at 09:14 PM.
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  #81   IP: 98.189.79.99
Old 11-19-2019, 12:16 PM
AFisch AFisch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
AFisch,

I am a little late into this thread, so apologies in advance if things below have already been mentioned.
No need to spend lots on a fuel pressure gauge. I have had great luck with the $15 Mr. Gasket 1561 on Amazon. It is a simple 1/8" NPT male fitting, so you need a female thread tee plus a couple male thread hose barbs that match your fuel line ID in between the fuel pump and carb. I would recommend some thread sealant too..like Permatex #3 Aviation in a jar with a brush...but anything designed for fuel will work.

It is the FIRST gauge I look at when my engine is running rough or sputtering. It instantly tells you the status of the fuel delivery system at least up to the carb...I don't know what PSI Palmer's like, but the A4 with a mechanical pump is about 3 PSI or so...but it will run all the way down to about 1 PSI, then it will start sputtering.

One more question on 'good fuel'...is the fuel laced with ethanol? If so, how old? Some of us have found yellow goopy gel in our carbs from ethanol fuel deposits (I think it is the corn turning gelatinous, but I am not a fuel expert.) I just quit running E-10 and lug jerry cans of E-0 to the boat. Some folks have no problem running E-10, but I got off the stuff for all of my small engines years ago...the tipping point for me was when I had 6 trees in the front yard from a hurricane and the fuel lines in my chain saw crumbled in my hand from ethanol fuel sitting in it. I also learned after that, especially with 2-stroke motors, to drain the fuel and run them dry if they are going to sit..
Thanks for the tip on the pressure guage...

As for the Fuel, I've just been getting gas from the gas station, always used the 91 octane...should I not be using this? I use the same in my '73 VW bus...
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Old 11-19-2019, 01:58 PM
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Thumbs up two different issues! :-)

We are dealing with two different things here, and this is always a fun discussion:

First - higher octane fuels are a waste of money in low compression engines...generally speaking. The only principal difference between 87 & 91+ octane fuel is the ignition rate. In higher compression engines, lower octane fuel burns too quickly and may detonate before the intake compression stroke is completed & the spark plug fires..so, higher octane fuels are used to slow/retard the burn of the fuel in high compression engines (my '07 Civic Si is like 12:1 or something and requires premium fuel). I assume the Palmer (and I am sure the VW is too) is similar to an A4 at a relatively low compression of 6.3:1. Unless there are some other additives/detergents that are not included in the 87 gas, they are a total waste of $$, and do not help the engine perform any better. I think with a lower compression engine you want the lower octane to get that fuel to burn ASAP and push that 50 year old piston as hard as it can!

Second - You mentioned the phrase back in like post #73, "good clean gas", which is why I asked for some clarification. In my opinion, ethanol laced gasoline like E-10, (thank goodness they haven't started distributing higher ratios yet) degrades over time, and can leave gunk in the fuel system...Most simple fuel stabilizers don't solve this problem entirely, but it seems some are getting better. Water/moisture that gets in the fuel also reacts with the ethanol, can separate it from the petroleum and makes a mess too. So, I was just clarifying what good clean gas means to you. If you have 5 gallons of old contaminated E-10 in your tank with separation issues, and add 2 gallons of fresh E-10 to your tank, you now have 7 gallons of bad E-10 fuel.

I am slightly extreme on my fuel opinions and choice, but I had lots of problems in the past, which have all been solved with the help of this forum (and doing a little of my own research on gasoline.) If I am on a cruise and must get E-10 marina gas, I try to make sure I burn it all out before I get close to the end of the season so I can fill the tank and winterize with E-0. The biggest reason I do that is, I worry about the moisture in the tank over the winter reacting with the ethanol, so I always fill with E-0 for storage. Many members here have no trouble with E-10, but they also recommend to use high volume stores which should give a better chance of 'fresh fuel' that hasn't had a chance to break down yet. My local Wawa (chain convenience stores with a kitchen kinda like a sub shop filtering down here on the East Coast from Canada for those that have never heard of them) has a gas truck there several times per week, and is open 24/7 with 20 gas pumps. If I chose to burn E-10, I would go to a place like that for 'fresh' gas.
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"Twice Around" - '77 Catalina 30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold.
She is even happier with fresh paint on the topsides!

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif

Last edited by sastanley; 11-19-2019 at 02:34 PM. Reason: more rambling..& fixing typos!
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  #83   IP: 98.189.79.99
Old 11-19-2019, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
We are dealing with two different things here, and this is always a fun discussion:

First - higher octane fuels are a waste of money in low compression engines...generally speaking. The only principal difference between 87 & 91+ octane fuel is the ignition rate. In higher compression engines, lower octane fuel burns too quickly and may detonate before the intake compression stroke is completed & the spark plug fires..so, higher octane fuels are used to slow/retard the burn of the fuel in high compression engines (my '07 Civic Si is like 12:1 or something and requires premium fuel). I assume the Palmer (and I am sure the VW is too) is similar to an A4 at a relatively low compression of 6.3:1. Unless there are some other additives/detergents that are not included in the 87 gas, they are a total waste of $$, and do not help the engine perform any better. I think with a lower compression engine you want the lower octane to get that fuel to burn ASAP and push that 50 year old piston as hard as it can!

Second - You mentioned the phrase back in like post #73, "good clean gas", which is why I asked for some clarification. In my opinion, ethanol laced gasoline like E-10, (thank goodness they haven't started distributing higher ratios yet) degrades over time, and can leave gunk in the fuel system...Most simple fuel stabilizers don't solve this problem entirely, but it seems some are getting better. Water/moisture that gets in the fuel also reacts with the ethanol, can separate it from the petroleum and makes a mess too. So, I was just clarifying what good clean gas means to you. If you have 5 gallons of old contaminated E-10 in your tank with separation issues, and add 2 gallons of fresh E-10 to your tank, you now have 7 gallons of bad E-10 fuel.

I am slightly extreme on my fuel opinions and choice, but I had lots of problems in the past, which have all been solved with the help of this forum (and doing a little of my own research on gasoline.) If I am on a cruise and must get E-10 marina gas, I try to make sure I burn it all out before I get close to the end of the season so I can fill the tank and winterize with E-0. The biggest reason I do that is, I worry about the moisture in the tank over the winter reacting with the ethanol, so I always fill with E-0 for storage. Many members here have no trouble with E-10, but they also recommend to use high volume stores which should give a better chance of 'fresh fuel' that hasn't had a chance to break down yet. My local Wawa (chain convenience stores with a kitchen kinda like a sub shop filtering down here on the East Coast from Canada for those that have never heard of them) has a gas truck there several times per week, and is open 24/7 with 20 gas pumps. If I chose to burn E-10, I would go to a place like that for 'fresh' gas.

Again, all really useful info and I am suspecting gunk int he carb possibly interfering with the float.

With all that said, where would I go to get E-0 fuel?

Adam
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Old 11-19-2019, 03:08 PM
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https://www.pure-gas.org/about

Note that while that may prevent issues, it won't fix ones you already have. For one example, if you have water ingress into your fuel tank, you need to fix it.
I buy 100 octane airplane gas for my chainsaw and lawnmower. So far it has been wonderful about not messing up the engines and sure smells nicer. I did winterize a couple times with 100 octane, but the $5/gal price is a bit painful. I also get good results with gas stabilizer ever since I got a new cap for my tank that doesn't leak.
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  #85   IP: 98.189.79.99
Old 12-11-2019, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
AFisch, one thing for sure is that Palmer did not develop their own carb!! It is probably a single barrel held on with two flange bolts/studs, the cables and a fuel line.
Take a picture of the carb or remove it and take a few pics. The make and model number should be on the carb FOR EASY REFERANCE.
I would not doubt it being a Zenith as they were quite common for marine and farm use on many engines. A kit should not be an issue and perhaps the Palmer boyz know which carb you have and what kit is required, worth a check.
Do not trade in your carb yet, will get to why later if you go further.

I strongly recommend if you get some pics that you start a new Palmer thread to simplify our Afourian efforts.

Dave Neptune
Started a new Thread Just called Palmer P60...here is my update now:

Hey All...so it was suggested I start a new thread here...

To back track...I have an old Columbia with a Palmer...been having shut down problems, have done all tests, spark, fuel filters, fuel pump, new fuel lines, compression, etc. Was still having an issue with the engine shutting down after a few minutes of running.

I have now taken off the Carb and it is an Old Zenith with no part number, but just ordered a rebuild kit from Moyer that looks like it'll work. This should be arriving in the next week, so I will be sure to post an update after I clean it and get it back to factory good.

I hope you all find me on this thread!

Adam
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Old 01-02-2020, 06:14 PM
Kevinstone Kevinstone is offline
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Palmer

I bought a replacement carb from Moyer for our Palmer. Been working great for years
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  #87   IP: 32.211.28.40
Old 01-02-2020, 10:56 PM
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Al Schober Al Schober is offline
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Some years back the wife and I were out in the Lancaster, PA area. She was in the quilt shop and I was just killing time. Noticed an Amish gent working on a tractor, so I wandered over. Part he was working on looked familiar so I asked 'Zenith?'. We chatted for quite a while - I totally enjoyed it.
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Old 01-03-2020, 05:05 PM
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Memory is a little fuzzy but I think it was Al who suggested if your concerned about phase separation in your fuel tank w /ethanol you should pump out the bottom few gallons couple times a year before adding new gas. May prevent future problems especially motoring underway and the water/gas is sloshing in the tank.
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Old 01-03-2020, 06:03 PM
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Well, I don't claim the idea as my own - I'll steal good ideas from anyone!
I did make it an annual thing to get a probe to the bottom of the tank and pump out a gallon. Tells you what's happening and also what's NOT happening. The fuel goes back into the tank, the non-fuel gets discarded.
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Old 01-06-2020, 12:25 PM
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I had a Palmer P60 in an old boat of mine that I absolutely loved. Wonderful engine...with an oil filter. Imagine that. I've read comments about parts availability, and generally speaking parts are readily available. Mostly International Cub tractor and Willy's Jeep parts. Copper head gasket is NLA. Had to have custom one made when motor was rebuilt.
Anyway, I once had a mysterious shut down issue that I could not resolve. Unlike you, after it shut down...and it was an immediate stop...I was unable to restart. I went through the usual culprits to no avail.
I finally called a trusted buddy of mine, and after I explained all I had done to try and figure out the problem, he explained to me about a tiny tube that insulates the coil ground wire where it passes through the body of the distributor (I think I have this correct...you pros can chime in if I have terms wrong). This plastic sheath can chaffe on the body of the disbributor and if it does and the wire touches the metal distibutor body, it will short out the coil. When it does.....no fire...no run. Mine literally looked like a short length of WD40 straw and was indeed chafed through. Anyway, replaced it and all good. Worth checking. Good luck.
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  #91   IP: 69.250.111.245
Old 01-07-2020, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFisch View Post
Started a new Thread Just called Palmer P60...here is my update now:

Hey All...so it was suggested I start a new thread here...

To back track...I have an old Columbia with a Palmer...been having shut down problems, have done all tests, spark, fuel filters, fuel pump, new fuel lines, compression, etc. Was still having an issue with the engine shutting down after a few minutes of running.

I have now taken off the Carb and it is an Old Zenith with no part number, but just ordered a rebuild kit from Moyer that looks like it'll work. This should be arriving in the next week, so I will be sure to post an update after I clean it and get it back to factory good.

I hope you all find me on this thread!

Adam
Here is a link to Adam's new thread over in the "Fuel System" area.
http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...ad.php?t=11354
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"Twice Around" - '77 Catalina 30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold.
She is even happier with fresh paint on the topsides!

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif
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