Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > General Interest

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 24.145.115.28
Old 03-11-2013, 09:12 PM
Tar34 Tar34 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 87
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Mechanical or electric

I'm afraid I'm in for a mechanical fuel pump rebuild. What is the current thinking on fuel pumps. Rebuild or go electric? Why are the Catalina 30 electric pumps higher pressure? Distance to fuel tank? Also, if I choose to go electric,
is there a downside to leaving the mechanical pump in place? What I experienced. Just prior to winterizing in the fall, I noticed a sudden symptom where the engine seemed to sputter on startup and rpm fade when the throttle was increased. Having been carefree for two years this was a bit of a jolt. My Racor fuel filter was spotless as was my fuel tank owing to a very recent cleaning. I put the symptom out of my mind for the winter. Yesterday, I fired her up for the spring. Prior to ignition, I sprayed some carb/gunk cleaner in the carb just for in case it might help. Just a spritz or two. In the cockpit I turned the key and the engine instantly fired up. I had change the oil prior to layup so I had great pressure on startup 50lbs+ I did notice a clicking sound when I got down to the cabin and chocked it up for a sticky lifter and after a few minutes all seemed back to normal. Too normal. Flawless without a hiccup. After running for about 45 minutes, sometimes under load, I shut her down feeling we were off to a good start. This morning, first thing I go to start her up. She starts right up. As I back off the the choke she starts the symptomatic sputter. She's is starving for fuel. I can keep rpms with a little choke. If I increase throttle rpms fade. I work it choke and throttle but she's a little rough so I shut down. I drain the the Racor. Pure fuel but smells a little old even with treatment. But she ran great the first day so I dismiss fuel. With the empty Racor I go to prime with the mechanical pump. I notice there is little to no throw in the primer. I have primed the Racor with the mechanical primer in the past but no joy this time. I can tell the diaphragm is just not pulling. Which brings me back to the clicking sound I spoke of earlier. I think it may have been the fuel pump making the clicking sound. Anyway, I may try the prime with a bulb just for laughs but I think it's the fuel pump. Comment welcome.
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 24.152.131.153
Old 03-11-2013, 09:24 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Try two things first

Try bumping the starter and see if the priming bail travel returns to normal. There's a chance the eccentric that drives the pushrod is at it's peak.

Secondly, check the oil level (looking for too high) and give it a sniff. The mechanical pump is designed so that a diaphragm failure dumps fuel into the crankcase.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #3   IP: 24.145.115.28
Old 03-11-2013, 09:40 PM
Tar34 Tar34 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 87
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Try bumping the starter and see if the priming bail travel returns to normal. There's a chance the eccentric that drives the pushrod is at it's peak.

Secondly, check the oil level (looking for too high) and give it a sniff. The mechanical pump is designed so that a diaphragm failure dumps fuel into the crankcase.
Yes, checked the oil, no problem there, thankfully. I will bump the starter first thing. Thanks for that heads up!
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 66.108.51.167
Old 03-11-2013, 10:39 PM
CalebD's Avatar
CalebD CalebD is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 899
Thanks: 18
Thanked 22 Times in 20 Posts
Rebuild kit?

Moyer sells a rebuild kit for mechanical fuel pump.
They also sell refurbished and new pumps.

The problem with the electric fuel pumps, as I see it, is that they violate the "KISS" principle. You are behooved and required to install an oil pressure shutoff switch (OPSS) with the electric pump set up. Besides the extra wiring into the ignition circuit you are now dependent on this OPSS to allow the pump to operate. The OPSS is designed to shutoff the fuel pump at something like < 10 psi oil pressure. That is all well and good but I know an A4 owner that searched for a month to figure out why their engine would just stall out. It turned out that the new OPSS they had installed had failed and was shutting off the fuel pump. Because of this, many owners who have the electric fuel pumps also install a way to bypass the OPSS which kind of negates the safety factor the OPSS was designed to add, IMHO. While the electric Facet fuel pumps are cheaper than the mechanical pump, many who use the electric fuel pump keep a spare (or two) electric fuel pump on board to swap in when the one that is hooked up fails (and it will fail, eventually).

I like the simplicity of the mechanical fuel pump; when the engine is turning, the fuel pump is pumping. When the engine stops spinning the fuel pump stops. I hadn't given our mechanical fuel pump much thought during 10 years of A4 ownership until last season when we discovered a slow fuel leak from the neglected pump. A new rebuilt pump and I'm guessing it is ready to go for another 20+ years as long as I spend some energy maintaining and cleaning it now and then.
__________________
Tartan 27 #328 owner born 1958
A4 and boat are from 1967
Reply With Quote
  #5   IP: 24.188.38.160
Old 03-12-2013, 06:50 AM
Skywalker's Avatar
Skywalker Skywalker is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Stony Brook, NY
Posts: 621
Thanks: 0
Thanked 17 Times in 12 Posts
Hmm.

I've had the electric pump on both my Tartan and C&C and did not have the OPSS on either. Guess I have work to do.

Chris
T27 249
Reply With Quote
  #6   IP: 24.145.113.187
Old 03-12-2013, 08:34 AM
TomG's Avatar
TomG TomG is offline
Afourian MVP Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kent Island, MD
Posts: 656
Thanks: 73
Thanked 93 Times in 53 Posts
Tar34,

Can you get the engine to run "off-idle"? A clogged idle jet can give the same symptoms. If the engine will run normally above 1,100-1,200 rpm (the rpm where the high-speed jet kicks in) you might consider a blocked idle jet.

Definitely check the fuel pump after turning the engine as Neil suggests. If the pump is centered on the high lobe of the cam currently and then starts to behave normally once the engine is turned (i.e. the fuel pump isn't the likely culprit), the winter layup could've offered enough time for the fuel to dissolve a little varnish this side of the Racor and it found its way to the idle jet.

Good luck and let us know what you find.
__________________
Tom
"Patina"
1977 Tartan 30
Repowered with MMI A-4 2008
Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 199.29.247.14
Old 03-12-2013, 09:26 AM
tenders tenders is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlem YC, City Island, NY
Posts: 1,439
Thanks: 46
Thanked 259 Times in 170 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywalker View Post
Hmm.

I've had the electric pump on both my Tartan and C&C and did not have the OPSS on either. Guess I have work to do.

Chris
T27 249
I don't have an OPSS on my E32, and I don't think my dad's '76 Pearson 28 used one either. I'm fully aware of what it does but have never wanted to add the complexity. When the engine shuts off, I turn the switch off, every single time.
Reply With Quote
  #8   IP: 199.168.148.136
Old 03-12-2013, 11:14 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,500
Thanks: 54
Thanked 855 Times in 629 Posts
Quote: "She's Starving For Fuel"

After you get the fuel pump and filters squared away if there are still problems try running from an auxiliary tank. Also think about an air leak or blockage in the carb.

TRUE GRIT
Reply With Quote
  #9   IP: 24.145.115.28
Old 03-13-2013, 01:00 PM
Tar34 Tar34 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 87
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Try bumping the starter and see if the priming bail travel returns to normal. There's a chance the eccentric that drives the pushrod is at it's peak.

Secondly, check the oil level (looking for too high) and give it a sniff. The mechanical pump is designed so that a diaphragm failure dumps fuel into the crankcase.
Your advice worked. Ticked the engine starter and the throw on the pump was enough to prime the racor and start the engine. Thanks. Not the fuel pump after all, seems to run fine and smooth. Will clean carb shortly. Thanks again,
Reply With Quote
  #10   IP: 75.243.80.39
Old 03-13-2013, 02:45 PM
Administrator's Avatar
Administrator Administrator is offline
MMI Webmaster
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Chestertown, MD (Langford Creek)
Posts: 2,198
Thanks: 1,335
Thanked 365 Times in 182 Posts
You are something else, Neil! Way to go!

Bill
Reply With Quote
  #11   IP: 216.115.121.242
Old 03-13-2013, 06:14 PM
lat 64's Avatar
lat 64 lat 64 is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
Posts: 1,964
Thanks: 39
Thanked 240 Times in 157 Posts
Get the opss installed

Sometime you will forget to turn off the key, or sometimes the engine will quit while you are distracted.
Here's a excerpt form one of my rebuild posts back in '10:

"...Now the cautionary tale: We were reefing the sails to get home in a gusty blow that went from 0 to 25 knots of wind. Very fickle and challenging.
I kept the motor idling for safety during the sail changes. It was idling too low and just died. We finished the reefing and forgot to turn off the ignition key until ten minutes later.
I started to smell gas. lots of scratching heads and lifting bilge boards to find the leak. Then I realized the fuel pump was on during the time the key was left on.
I checked the air horn and sure enough, gas was dripping out at the bottom. The pump was strong enough to overcome the float valve and flooded the carb.
I got out the fire extingusher and cranked the engine as you would with a flooded carb—full trottle, no choke. She coughed and gagged and started to run fine.

The PO had bypassed the oil pressure shutoff switch on the fuel pump because there was not enough oil pressure to keep it closed. Now I have oil pressure! I will reinstall the switch and be much safer for it.
I might have the wrong fuel pump. It is a facet, but I think it just something from a NAPA store and it probably makes too much pressure. Time to upgrade...."
__________________
Whiskeyjack a '68 Columbia 36 rebuilt A-4 with 2:1

"Since when is napping doing nothing?"

Last edited by lat 64; 03-13-2013 at 10:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12   IP: 99.63.216.154
Old 03-13-2013, 06:33 PM
dvd's Avatar
dvd dvd is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: San Joaquin Delta, California
Posts: 449
Thanks: 3
Thanked 12 Times in 8 Posts
Tar

The mechanical fuel pump rebuild is a no brainer. Even if it turns out not to be the problem it is really easy with the moyer rebuld kit. I rebuilt mine in just a few minutes and at the very least you can cross it off the list.

I prefer the mechanical because there is no way for it to pump gas unless the engine is turning over. How simple is that.

dvd
Reply With Quote
  #13   IP: 24.152.131.153
Old 03-13-2013, 08:57 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Administrator View Post
You are something else, Neil! Way to go!

Bill
Yeah, how 'bout dat? Somedays chicken, somedays feathers. Glad it worked.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 63.96.228.70
Old 03-13-2013, 09:21 PM
roadnsky's Avatar
roadnsky roadnsky is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Lake Mead, NV
Posts: 3,104
Thanks: 24
Thanked 467 Times in 309 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
...Somedays chicken, somedays feathers. Glad it worked.
Or...
Sometimes you're the windshield
Sometimes you're the bug
__________________
-Jerry

'Lone Ranger'

1978 RANGER 30
Reply With Quote
  #15   IP: 216.115.121.242
Old 03-13-2013, 10:23 PM
lat 64's Avatar
lat 64 lat 64 is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
Posts: 1,964
Thanks: 39
Thanked 240 Times in 157 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvd View Post
Tar

The mechanical fuel pump rebuild is a no brainer. Even if it turns out not to be the problem it is really easy with the moyer rebuld kit. I rebuilt mine in just a few minutes and at the very least you can cross it off the list.

I prefer the mechanical because there is no way for it to pump gas unless the engine is turning over. How simple is that.

dvd
Yea, +1 on that. I should have clarified in my post above that Tar34 ought to just stick with the mechanical pump for all the reasons stated.
__________________
Whiskeyjack a '68 Columbia 36 rebuilt A-4 with 2:1

"Since when is napping doing nothing?"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mechanical to Electric Fuel Pump twoowls Fuel System 8 06-18-2012 06:35 AM
Spring Startup ArtJ Troubleshooting 51 05-11-2012 11:46 PM
Mechanical Fuel Pump weephee Troubleshooting 11 07-20-2011 03:47 PM
mechanical vs electric fuel pump? meander Fuel System 6 09-09-2008 09:08 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2024 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved