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  #1   IP: 71.118.13.238
Old 09-09-2009, 03:49 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Question Bilge Safety

Adninistrator, I have reviewed many posts over the years and one thing keeps coming up that concerns me as far as safety is concerned. I have witnessed two gas related explosions on boats however both were on a power boat. In both instances neither was using the "Blower" to keep the engine-box/bilge vented. I have seen many posts regarding Co and smoke detectors in which they stated that they turned the Blower back on because of fumes. This scares the krap out of me.

My personal starting drill is to remove the key from the raw water valve while opening it which gives me a good opportunity to sniff the air. Then I start the blower prime the carb, close the choke and then stick my nose in the blower exhaust vent on the transom. If I smell no fuel I start the engine.

Whenever my engine is running SO IS THE BLOWER for safety and keeping a better flow of cool fresh air around the engine.

I would like to see a pole on how many actually cruise with the BLOWER off or on. I am also interested in seeing the comments that will follow.

Thanx, Dave Neptune
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Old 09-09-2009, 04:23 PM
Bob.Griffin Bob.Griffin is offline
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I share your concerns, one cannot be too careful with a gas engine on board. I have a gas fume detector located about 9 inches from the carb, fuel pump and Racor filter, and I actually test it periodically with a gas-soaked kleenex. I also leave the engine compartment door open (it slides) providing about a 6 inch by 12 inch gap, if I smell gas in the cabin I then check the engine compartment. While the engine is running I figure I have a good flow of air through the engine compartment door and out through 2 dorades on the stern. However, I am very close to wiring the bilge blower fan directly to the ignition so that it runs at all times when the engine is running, the only problem being that I need a parallel switched line to the blower so I can turn on before switching the ignition on, in the event of needing to clear any fumes during servicing for example.

Bob, s/v Dovetale
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Old 09-09-2009, 05:29 PM
smosher smosher is offline
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I sniff for gas when I turn on the gas and the water. Then I turn on the blower. I will usually run the blower for several minutes before and after I start the engine. I had a small gas leak in the cover to the fram gas filter and its very noticeable when I went to turn on the gas.

I also have on my P30 two dorades for fresh air into the engine compartment.

Steve
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Old 09-09-2009, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
Whenever my engine is running SO IS THE BLOWER for safety and keeping a better flow of cool fresh air around the engine.
Probably a good idea. Trouble is, most blowers were not designed to run for long and continuous periods of time. I have vents that bring in and take out air; I have the companionway hatch open; and I have the engine compartment doors open. This gives ample fresh air to the engine compartment. I run the blower before starting every time and I don't start without the "sniff test", but I do not run the blower all the time the engine is on. I should probably revisit this issue in my procedures and look for a blower that is capable of indefinite running.

Mark
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Old 09-09-2009, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
actually cruise with the BLOWER off or on
Dave:

Do you mean while the engine is running, when it's not, or both?

Bill
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Old 09-09-2009, 06:17 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Thumbs up Blower

Bill, I actually mean on whenever the engine is running regardless of the dorade vents hatches etc. I have many friends whose boats I am leary of sailing with diesels as they just hit the starter and go. When I ask about the blower that they are equiped with they say it's a diesel and doesn't need to be vented~~~~BS.
I use a continuous duty type and it has been in service for at least 10~12 years now. I even let it run for a few minutes when I shut the motor down.

Thanx David
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Old 09-09-2009, 07:14 PM
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I have to climb into my lazarette, which is part of the engine compartment, to turn on the water and gas so I take this opportunity to take a sniff. I have had a gas leak from the carb before and the smell is undeniably obvious. I then turn on the blower for a couple of minutes and run it the entire time the engine is running. My last blower only lasted for 2 years, but hey - they are cheap!
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Old 09-09-2009, 07:50 PM
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Our blower is very loud, obnoxious and an amperage hog. May need to rethink procedures.
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Old 09-09-2009, 08:01 PM
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My practice is to run the blower about five minutes prior to starting and continuously while the engine is running. In addition, I have the Xintex MB-1 Gas Fume Detector that emits a shrill alarm and automatically turns on the blower if combustible fumes are detected. The system shuts down the blower when the fumes are evacuated. I keep this system on at all times even when I'm not at the boat. It keeps an eye (nose??) on things when I can't. It's available at West and I recommend it highly.

Neil
77 Catalina 30
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Old 09-09-2009, 08:20 PM
keelcooler keelcooler is offline
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As Dave said,incorporate sticking your face in the engine bay as part of your start up procedure (opening raw water cock). Any explosive fumes and you will know.
I shut the blower off when the engine starts. Run your blower for an extended time and fell how hot that sucker gets.
Mark is right, our under $100. blowers are not designed to run continuous.Our econo blowers are for intermittent cycles only.
Just like all electrical stuff in the motor bay the motors per Coast Guard must be shielded to prevent a spark source.
Overheat the blower motor and you may degrade the shielding. How many blowers have you herd squealing? They are worn out but still running. Our econo blower manufactures recommend replacement after eight or nine hundred hours.
When running you should have a natural venting duct,cowl and feel air flow at the motor duct end.
Most gas fume explosions occur right after refueling. This is the time to open the fuel tank hatch and religiously check fill,vent and tank surfaces for a wet spot or fumes.
We must not overlook electrical and raw fuel fires in are motor box.This risk is by far the most common.
All engine fires I have been involved in could not be extinguished by owner or crew.
All engine fires I have been involved in with an automatic haylon type extinguisher were put out before the operator even knew of a problem.
They work and that's why your insurer will offer a discount upon install.
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Old 09-09-2009, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
I use a continuous duty type and it has been in service for at least 10~12 years now.
Dave, what do you have for a blower? I want one.

Mark
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Old 09-09-2009, 11:35 PM
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All good points and I want a continuous duty blower too.

It seems to me that with the engine running, fuel pump pumping and fuel flowing, the possibility of a fuel leak is enhanced and at a time when I’m on deck rather than in a position to sniff the bilge. I’m still more comfortable with powered over natural ventilation and if my blower starts complaining I’ll replace it like any other worn out component.

It also seems to me that the blower and Halon extinguishing system serve different purposes. The blower is intended to remove dangerous fumes before something catastrophic happens while the Halon system minimizes the damage after the catastrophe. One system isn’t preferable to the other, they both perform essential functions.

Neil
77 Catalina 30
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:33 AM
keelcooler keelcooler is offline
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Yes Neil, a haylon unit is the bilge safety equipment item of last resort.
Take a look at the fried fuel pump recently pictured.No way is a blower going to reduce a fire hazard if that hole was gushing raw fuel.

Continuous duty blowers are available for just under $300. You mostly see this model blower serving a generator box. A good blower venting your box all the time is good. A hot cheep blower running all the time is bad.

Most of our boats have 3" blower systems.All heavy duty blowers are 4" and will require 12 amp draw. If you upgrade make sure your wiring can handle and install 15 amp fusing.
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Old 09-10-2009, 11:54 AM
tenders tenders is offline
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I run my blower all the time and am not particularly concerned about wearing it out. I keep the blower running to remove any fuel fumes, but also to cool the engine compartment and ventilate it in case any exhaust fumes leak out. The last blower lasted, I think, 32 years and it doesn't look to me like the new blower will have any problem lasting a good long time either.

The boat originally had a blower switch at the DC panel and another switch in series in the cockpit. Both had to be turned on for the blower to work. This was slightly inconvenient, so as of last year my blower is wired (and fused) into the "accessory" position on my 4-position keyed ignition switch (Off/Acc/Ign/Start).

My procedure is:
* Remove engine cover, verify raw water intake is open, and sniff for fumes
* Turn blower on via key (I do this after sniffing)
* Stow gear on board, feel for airflow coming out of blower vent, sniff airflow coming out of blower vent (this usually takes 3-5 minutes)
* Start engine, look overboard to confirm coolant flow out the exhaust
* Keep blower on for a few minutes after engine is shut down
* Turn blower back on for a minute or so before restarting engine

Last edited by tenders; 09-10-2009 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 09-10-2009, 03:03 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Thumbs up Blower??

Mark, I have no idea who manufactured my blower. I went through 2 blowers in the first ten years of opperating Volador. When that last one expired I went to a marine supply while in Santa Barbara (it failed at Santa Cruz Isl.) aand bought the best one they had to fit my ducting. That was about 12~15 years ago. When I am at the boat again this weekend I will give a look under the lazzerate to see if the name is visable. I do know that it is a "squirrel cage" type and it really moves a lot of air.

For those who don't like the noise mount them on rubber isolators. I remounted mine after returning and it made a huge difference quieting the noise as well as dampening the vibration and associated noises.

Dave Neptune
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Old 09-10-2009, 03:06 PM
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Thanks, Dave, for going to this effort. Maybe you could also tell me what size is your ducting. Thanks again.

Mark
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Old 09-10-2009, 03:18 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Question Duct

Mark, I'll check however I think it's 4"
David
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Old 09-10-2009, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
All good points and I want a continuous duty blower too.

It seems to me that with the engine running, fuel pump pumping and fuel flowing, the possibility of a fuel leak is enhanced and at a time when I’m on deck rather than in a position to sniff the bilge. I’m still more comfortable with powered over natural ventilation and if my blower starts complaining I’ll replace it like any other worn out component.

It also seems to me that the blower and Halon extinguishing system serve different purposes. The blower is intended to remove dangerous fumes before something catastrophic happens while the Halon system minimizes the damage after the catastrophe. One system isn’t preferable to the other, they both perform essential functions.

Neil
77 Catalina 30
Neil, I a recent owner of a 77 Catalina 30. I couldn't understand why I had limited air flow in my blower. I found water in the exhaust hose of my blower line (between the clamshell & blower motor, port side on my boat) and it allowed for very little air flow. Detaching the hose from the blower and cleaning out, increased flow ten fold. Just a friendly suggestion from a fellow C-30 owner, just in case.

I figure 20+ years of rain/hose water from previous owner had collected.

Dave, I went and answered the separate poll thread..my answer..it depends

edit - Incidentally, I recently read at another sailing forum (Sailing Anarchy) that there was recent a A-4 powered boat (C&C 35 I believe) that was a total loss due to an explosion after refueling. Delivery crew OK, but still speculation on what happened. Refueling occurred with jerry can(s) on deck (post-Mac race I think, boat's name was Gandalf) and blower was run for one minute prior to restart. One crew was blown off the boat, the others jumped soon after when they realized they couldn't save it & help was nearby. To avoid speculation, I won't post any theories, but the person in charge of the delivery reported there was no abnormal fume smell, etc., and was familiar with Atomic 4's. Just a note to everyone to be careful!
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Last edited by sastanley; 09-11-2009 at 01:35 PM. Reason: add lost boat info
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Old 09-10-2009, 11:44 PM
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Bob's quote:
"I am very close to wiring the bilge blower fan directly to the ignition so that it runs at all times when the engine is running, the only problem being that I need a parallel switched line to the blower so I can turn on before switching the ignition on"

A few of us have already done it and its very easy. Cole-Hersee sells a 4 position start switch that takes care of this. AUX-OFF-IGN-ST.
Blower gets wired to the auxiliary post so its on when the engine runs, or just turn the key to aux and only the blower goes. Its one of my favorite mods I've done to my boat since it used to be down on the cabin's breaker panel and was a pain to get to.
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Old 09-12-2009, 12:37 AM
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What msauntry said.
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Old 09-12-2009, 10:44 AM
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As Shawn read most blow ups occur after refueling and involve fumes.
With the motor running and the boat underway they don't blow,they burn when there is a system fuel leak.

That's why the final link in your bilge safety plan should be a haylon automatic.
That's why running your blower when underway does little if any good in reducing a fire risk in the event of a leak.

Boat us claim in 1990,Deal Md,K-35 w/a4 total loss fire. After sailing the engine was started while sails were bagged. Owner returned to the helm and found engine had stalled. Blower was running and when he attempted to restart a fire erupted in the motor box. Cause found to be no oil safety switch for the electric fuel pump. When it stalled the fuel pump kept clicking, flooded and leaked out of the carb. An ignition source found the fuel when restarted.

USAA claim in 1986,down town Annapolis MD,city dock Catalina 30 w/a4 total loss explosion. Owner refueled,ran blower and when starting engine she blew. Cause found to be small fuel leak around fill system. Fumes were around the tank aft and were not evacuated by the blower and the boat was wide open. An ignition source found the fumes when restarted. The force buckled bulkheads, cabin sole and detached the deck to hull joint aft. The only fire damage involved flash burned blower hoses,trash bags holding gear and the owners eye brows.

I have many others that involve gas powerboats.
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Old 09-12-2009, 04:56 PM
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But only two A4's from 1986? That's good news for 21 years of service.
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Old 09-14-2009, 08:43 AM
keelcooler keelcooler is offline
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Steve, Those are local bay claims I handled when I was a surveyor.I'm sure there are many more. Most accidents are not reported to USCG unless there is a fatality. I know that's unlawful, however that's just the way it is.
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Old 09-14-2009, 11:39 AM
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Keel,

There are a lot of A4's out there. So do you see that A4's are more prone to explosions or fires than diesels? This is an old debate, but I have not been able to get any hard numbers. I suspect there are more A4's than any type of diesel engine out there on the Bay. So what is the percentage failure of A4's compared to say Yanmar's?

I had a galley fire on my boat. Not a nice experience. With respect to putting out fires, I suspect that there is not a lot of experience using fire extinguishers. I found that they put out a large blast but not only for a short time. Aiming is critical. Pointing at the flames does not work. You only get 2 -3 shots per tank.

I have three on my boat. I am planning to add 2 more topside, but I have not figured out where to put them yet.

I would recommend sailors try to put out a fire with an extinguisher. It is a very educational experience. Use of the extinguishers takes practice. Seeing how they behave during a life threatening fire could be too late.

Steve
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Old 09-14-2009, 02:02 PM
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Steve, The only trend I observed was the owners who poorly maintained their boats had the dis-masting,sinking and fire claims.

Most boat fires involve AC shore power and or electric heaters.

Lot's of galley fires involving alcohol fueled stoves, none with propane( I know what fuel you had).

Fighting an engine compartment fire w/a 3 lb dry chem is a joke. Like your self owners always reported "the dry chem ran out by the time I learned to aim it"

As you can see above my unit of choice is a auto haylon. A 6 lb horn nozzle co2 accessible from the cockpit is next.
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