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  #1   IP: 209.205.38.43
Old 12-09-2014, 11:21 AM
dtodd55 dtodd55 is offline
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Running engine for long periods of time

I'm a new Atomic 4 owner on a 30’ Pearson sailboat and I was wondering if anyone had any advice on the reliability of the engine, and with running at full throttle for long periods of time. I intend to move the boat 30 nm in the spring and I'm new to sailing and probably not going to use the sails right away.

Do you recommend just below full throttle? Take a break every hour?

Can I run the engine at full throttle for 6 hours straight?

Under fair conditions, can I actually expect to get my max speed of 5 knots at full throttle?

How finicky are these engines? Can I expect it to conk out on me half way through the trip?

Thanks in advance for any advice!
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Old 12-09-2014, 07:24 PM
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Marian Claire Marian Claire is offline
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Welcome to the forum.
1. I have run my A-4 for 8+ hrs a day, day after day, at a RPM that gives me 80+-% of hull speed. A lot of things play into performance and every boat is different.
2. You should be able to reach a good/useful/efficient speed below WOT, wide open throttle.
3. I do not know.
4. You should reach it at less than WOT. But again you have to consider, prop size, how clean is the hull/prop, how "tired" the A-4 is etc.
5. Give an A-4 gas, compression, spark and proper timing and they will run. Tough little beasts.
6. You never know. There are many things that can go wrong on any engine.
I always have a "what if plan" going on in my head. My A-4 has limited the times I have had to use them.
Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 12-09-2014, 08:47 PM
Rbyham Rbyham is offline
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With some frequency I run my A4 for full days on the ICW. She is vintage 1966 and never misses a beat on such trips. I almost never go WOT. But I am not a pusher. I baby her and find a comfortable speed at what feels like about 75% of WOT. I don't have a tach so not sure of rpms. I do have temp and oil pressure gauge that I keep an eye on whenever motoring. If I get back to slip after several hour hard run (against tide for example). I will let her idle at the slip for a few minutes. My temp gauge never goes above 140 no matter what I do but I still like the thought of letting her return to regular temp and pressures. Bottom line I have no fear of all day runs but like others I typically have a plan B in my mind just in case. I would sure have sails on the boat in case.
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Old 12-09-2014, 09:13 PM
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it is a great marine engine. I have run mine for 30 hours straight. There is no reason you would have to take a break. Maybe you could check the oil as you get to know t he engine.

Keep it in tune, with good gas and it will keep running. It has a simple carb and ignition system. The same type that was used on cars till the 80s. So breakdowns can always happen to any mechanical device, but I dont worry, I keep prepared.

Learn the engine and care for it..
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Old 12-09-2014, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romantic comedy View Post
Learn the engine and care for it..
Welcome to the forum!

The magic for you is the delta between where you are today, and where you will be in a few months of learning and caring. With care, the engine is reliable and forgiving, with readily diagnosed problem modes.

If the PO (previous owner) took care of the boat and engine, you should have no problem if you use clean fuel, perhaps new filters?, and watch the vitals of temp and oil pressure. If the PO didn't, then you will want to learn a bit first and think of contingency plans....

If you didn't find one onboard, I'd strongly suggest you get 'The Manual' offered for sale by our host. It's the best single source of information on the A4, followed/augmented by this forum. The manual is faster to read...

P.S. Bring the sails, and bring a friend who sails. You own a sailboat, and there's nothing better than being able to unfurl the jib and sail away from a potential problem. A sailboat without sails is crippled. Also, first year or two, a membership to BoatsUS is cheap insurance for the towing option alone. A commercial tow can be $500 - $1000. If available. If it's not an emergency. If it's not a salvage operation.... Be self reliant, but BoatsUS is AAA for the cautious.
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Old 12-09-2014, 10:33 PM
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dtodd55,

What shape is the engine in? Has it been maintained well? Is it original to the boat? Do you have compression numbers? How's the exhaust system? The fuel system? Any upgrades to the A-4? Do you have a picture?

As others have already mentioned, the A-4 is a very dependable and durable marine engine. A couple of "personality traits" include:

1. The updraft Zenith carb really loves good clean fuel. I think clean is more important than fresh for this carb. A good fuel filtering/polishing system will likely save you some fuel-related issues.

2. The valve springs on the older engines are not quite as strong as they could be. Given the marine environment and flathead engine style, sticky valves are not uncommon. The addition of Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) to the fuel (usually at 100:1) plus the direct squirting of MMO into the cylinders greatly mitigates the potential for stuck/sticky valves. (This is why I was asking about compression ratios)

3. There can be corrosion issues with the A-4 as there are with any Raw Water Cooled (RWC) marine engine.

4. The water pump can be a challenge to remove without the "extendo-bolt".

There are others I'm sure, but the A-4 is a marvelous and robust marine engine. I invested a little time here on this forum and read the Moyer Marine Maintenance Manual when I got my boat a few years ago and have been wonderfully happy with my A-4. With MMI providing parts and service (Ken and Don are truly magnificent gentlemen) and this forum so wonderfully shepherded by Moderator Bill, I can replace, repair, or upgrade any system on my A-4 that I choose. There is a wealth of knowledge, and not just A-4 related, that makes this forum a place I visit all the time even though my A-4 runs perfectly.

Welcome aboard.
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Old 12-10-2014, 01:58 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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55
Welcome to the forum.

If you raise the main sail before you start your motor sail you will have a lot more comfortable ride. If the wind is favorable the main sail will help push the boat along. If the wind is "on the nose" or if there is no wind having the main up and sheeted in will help to keep the boat from rolling as much.

Most sailboats have low initial stability but high final stability. That is it is easy to heel them the first ~10* but after the initial heel it takes a lot more force to get them to heel more. This comes about because of the "wine glass" shaped hull.

Anyway having the main sail up will dampen and cut down on the down on the first ~10* of easy rolling motion. Try motoring with and without the main up. You'll see.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 12-10-2014, 06:41 AM
smosher smosher is offline
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I have a 74 p30 and at 3/4 throttle I can easy do 6 kts with a clean bottom and the indigo prop. I have run the motor for more than 6 hours with no trouble. There are several items though I would consider.

First I would replace points, if you have them, plugs, fan belt and change the oil. Not too difficult in the p30

Original Motorola Alt only puts out @ 13.2 vdc, If you have the upgrade to a new alt the voltage would be 14.4. This is an issue with EI and it will heat up the coil more as the dwell is longer. Many folks use a ballast resistor to drop the amp flow through the primary side of the coil. I personally have had a pertronix coil die even with the resistor. I haven't had a problem with the new coil from Moyer and its been 2 seasons.

After running for several hours with 30 wt oil, the oil pressure will drop
when you drop into idle. I use 10w 40 and the pressure stays at 40 psi.

If its the original fuel pump, the membrane cracks with age and pumps gas into the crankcase. I replaced mine with the electronic fuel pump, or you
can rebuild it with a kit from Moyer

When beating into the wind and waves the p30 will bob around quite a bit. As John stated run with the main up and to an angle to the wind, this will stabilize
the movement.

Its a good sturdy boat that is fast to sail. At my marina there's a few who race, I don't, and I overheard them that they can't beat the p30.


Steve
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  #9   IP: 134.223.116.157
Old 12-10-2014, 07:07 AM
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I'll be the lone dissenter.

The boat is new to you, so you don't really know the maintenance history or what condition the engine is in. A healthy Atomic-4 will do this with no problem, but are you really willing to "put the hammer down" on an engine that may be tired?

I wouldn't run the engine at "WOT" the entire time. It's inefficient, and only shortens the intervals between major maintenance.

"WOT" on a Pearson 30 only gives you that last .5 knots of hull speed.
75-80% throttle will get you most of the way there, with a lot less wear and tear on the engine, and much greater fuel efficiency.

As someone already mentioned, a clean hull and propeller will greatly reduce the load on your engine. With a healthy engine and clean hull, you should be able to achieve at least 6.6 knots in a neutral current and no wind.

80% throttle should get you to 6 knots if the hull is clean.
No, you shouldn't need to give the engine rest periods. It'll either make the trip or it won't.
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Old 12-10-2014, 07:41 AM
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It's not about trusting the engine but rather trusting the care and maintenance by the previous owner(s). Before I subjected a new-to-me 30 or 40 something year old raw water cooled marine engine to prolonged runs - or even short runs for that matter - I'd give it a full maintenance following the protocols laid out in the Moyer Marine manual and the advice available on this forum. I'd also examine at least four ancillary systems critical to the engine but not part of the engine itself: fuel, electrical, cooling and exhaust.

Make this engine your own and it will serve you well. Trusting the previous owner is a gamble.
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:01 AM
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Ok Neil,

You were able to better articulate my thoughts on the matter better than I can.
...which is why I shouldn't be on the internet dispensing advice.
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:13 AM
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While maybe not on exactly the same page we were certainly in the same chapter.
Quote:
...which is why I shouldn't be on the internet dispensing advice.
Oh no you don't. You're not getting off that easy. If you don't chime in we are left listening only to blowhards with over 5,000 posts. Nobody wants that.
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Old 12-10-2014, 10:03 AM
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Al Schober Al Schober is offline
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Welcome to the forum!
I have a '73 Tartan 30 with a '76 Atomic 4 (original developed a crack in the block). As the engines age, there are certain things that can be expected to happen. Rings will wear causing loss of compression and smoke in the cabin, valves and their seats will degrade causing loss of compression and hard starting, exhaust systems have a finite life - the list goes on..
Good points made so far. All I'll add is to carry some spares - electrical parts including a coil, fuel filters, pump impeller - stuff you can't fix. Burned points can be cleaned up, but if the condenser dies you need a spare. You get the idea...
The engine will run happily until it runs out of fuel. An 8 hour day is no problem. You're not going to need or want wide open throttle. The engines with 1:1 transmission are limited in RPM by the propeller. You'll find you'll get to a certain throttle setting and the boat or engine won't go any faster - back off a bit from there and things will stay happy. Keep an eye on your water temperature and oil pressure.
Hope this helps.
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Old 12-10-2014, 10:49 AM
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Back in the day we ran the A4 at full throttle until the gas was low, dumped more in while still underway, and kept going. Probably 300 miles without a break. Fast forward some years and eventually the engine could not be run hard for long without overheating and losing oil pressure. When I removed that engine we took it apart and the block had rusted badly which clogged many cooling passages.
So.....you may have a great engine or it might overheat and/or lose oil pressure if run hard for a long time, depending on where it is in the A4 life cycle. I would suggest running for an hour at 3/4 throttle and watching the gauges to get an idea.
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Old 12-10-2014, 11:30 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtodd55 View Post
How finicky are these engines? Can I expect it to conk out on me half way through the trip?
Thanks in advance for any advice!
Engines aren't finicky. People are at times. As in when I do it it's called discriminating. When you do it it's called finicky.
In any case getting to know the person (or engine) well will reduce the chances of an unpleasnt encounter later.
Once you have the engine cruise ready I would recommend a one hour motor sail close to home port to be sure as possible that there will be no unplesant surprises.

TRUE GRIT

Last edited by JOHN COOKSON; 12-10-2014 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 12-10-2014, 11:59 AM
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Talking

Just to repeat suggestion - make sure your BOAT US unlimited towing insurance is in place before leaving the dock.
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Old 12-10-2014, 12:13 PM
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I can't add a dang thing to what everyone said. Heed the words. Learn about the boat before you go.

Welcome, stick around,
Russ
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Old 12-10-2014, 01:06 PM
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The Little engine that CAN!!

I could echo all here, but I'll just share the actual entry from Sea Havens Deck Log during our FIRST day of ownership.
Logs not only provide fond memories, but are valid learning tools. I learned a lot that day both positive and negative.

I also learned a LOT since from the group of A4 Mariners here.
I am thoroughly happy with this engine. Not afraid to work on it either. Every time I looked at my previous diesel, I saw paychecks disappear.
Like anything else, take care of your engine and she'll take care of you.
Note that AFTER Plum Gut, the remainder of the trip was INTO the wind.

FWIW, on runs greater than a 1/2 hour I lay below every 30 minutes to take temp readings with an IR Gun of both the engine and shaft and take a quick visual to insure all good. I call it the "Engine Watch"

2013-06-15: The Voyage Home

DATA

Voyage type: Passage

Destination: Mount Sinai Harbor Mooring 559

Depart: 0530

Arrive: 1809

Log: 65NM

Engine Hours: 12h51m

Meteorological Conditions: Sunny

Wind Direction: WNW

Wind Speed (KTS): 10-15 G22

Barometer: 29.95

Sea State: Moderate Chop

Sea Direction: East

Crew: EST, EEB, EMB

Passangers:
None


LOG

0519: Engine On

0530: Underway. Departing South Hampton Town Marina, Shinnecock NY. Homeward Bound!!

0938: Made Plum Gut, Passed Orient Point Light

1750: Made “F” Dock at Mt Sinai Harbor

1800: Underway.

1809: Arrived Mooring MSH559, L 40°57.709’N ? 073°01.634’W

1810: Secured Engine



NOTES

0530: Nasty backing out of slip, current swung us in the opposite direction. Fortunately I was able to continue the swing with enough room to continue on. Learned later that the Atomic-4/Walther V-Drive uses a friction clutch for reverse. Need to maintain pressure in reverse.

0545: Underway in Greater Peconic Bay, wind and waves off port beam as we headed eastward made for a rough ride until we made the lee side of Robin’s Island. Have to admit I was a bit nervous, first time out with her and all. After passing Robins Island and into Little Peconic Bay, the trip became quite enjoyable to Plum Gut. The only concern was navigating the channel north of Shelter Island w/o GPS, lack of NAVAID’s made for sure passage questionable. Would not transit at night without GPS or GOOD DR’s.

0938: Good timing for Plum Gut, just before tide turn for ride into Sound.

0955: Dropped the Time Capsule: L 41°10.592’N ? 072°14.153’W ***Lily Can***

1330: Refueled Underway: 5 Gallons. GPH ~1.5

1350: Contacted USCG Ch16 to report Hazard to Navigation. Large log ~ 12”x 15’ with multiple branches off Mattituck Inlet.

Other:

Engine appeared to smoke, possibly steam, especially at high RPM. Also, minor Exhaust leak in Engine compartment.

Monitored Stuffing box temp, ~ 20°F above ambient. Cylinder heads ~160°F

This was the day after taking possession of MALAMBO, now SEA HAVEN, and our first trip aboard her. I learned a powerful lesson reading taking an unproven vessel (to me) into unknown waters (to me). Thankfully it all went well. I see this as a long and rewarding relationship with SEA HAVEN.

Last edited by Sea Haven; 12-10-2014 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 12-10-2014, 01:06 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
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Exclamation Build "YOUR" confidence

If it will run at cruise for an hour it should keep going until you shut it down or run out of "good clean regular gasoline". I often run for more than 8 hours and I seldom even look at the gages once the throttle is set at my choice of cruising speed. If the sound of the engine changes I take a look at everything including the gages.

And so figure out how the sails can help if it does stall out, it will certainly ease your mind for an "enjoyable" trip instead of a stressed one.

Good advise in this thread.

Dave Neptune
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Old 12-10-2014, 02:25 PM
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
If it will run at cruise for an hour it should keep going until you shut it down or run out of "good clean regular gasoline". I often run for more than 8 hours and I seldom even look at the gages once the throttle is set at my choice of cruising speed. If the sound of the engine changes I take a look at everything including the gages.

And so figure out how the sails can help if it does stall out, it will certainly ease your mind for an "enjoyable" trip instead of a stressed one.

Good advise in this thread.

Dave Neptune
Agree with all the above statements from number 1 down. I'd like to give three area's to pay particular attention to.
-fuel supply: ask the previous owner how much he used the engine. An engine used generally has decent fuel and fuel system. An engine that sits is more problematic as crud develops in the tank and makes it's way through filtering into the carb and plugging passages.
-If the engine has electronic ignition a coil WITH an added external ballast resistor is a good idea. If the engine has points and condensor don't worry about it.
-Every couple of hours shut down and check the oil and turn the grease cap on the water pump...as for the oil...it is not uncommon for these engines to use oil and having to add oil is not necessarily indicative of a bad engine. I use 15W40 diesel oil and consumption is minimal...something you might want to consider once you get familiar with your engine....ensure to take oil with you.

I'm sure you will do fine...I'd jump on mine and run for 100 hours without batting an eye.
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The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.

Last edited by Mo; 12-10-2014 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 12-10-2014, 07:04 PM
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Advice from Captain Ron, but he got lucky

We don't know if it's safe.

- We'll find out on the ocean.



Anything's gonna happen,

it's gonna happen out there.
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Old 12-11-2014, 01:05 AM
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Jim, I see you went to the Capt Ron sailing school too.
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Old 12-11-2014, 08:47 AM
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Wow! Thanks so much for all of this helpful information, this will be invaluable as I gear up for the spring. Good news is that the previous owner was very meticulous so I suspect it's in good shape. At the very least I will be replacing the basic stuff. Thanks again and I look forward to reviewing the wealth of knowledge in the forum.
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Old 12-11-2014, 05:30 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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55

See FAQs general information #6.
I didn't supply a link because I want the new member\new owner to become familiar with the FAQs.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 12-13-2014, 01:21 PM
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I have a 1976 P30 with a standard 12" 2 blade prop. The engine and I have arrived at an agreement- I don't ask her to drive over 5.5 knots, she doesn't ask me to rebuild her. We can go 5.2-5.5 knots very comfortably all day long. We have been up to about 6.2 knots, but the engine makes complainy noises. I motor sail a lot- unfurl the jib for a couple more knots and ease off the RPMs a little.

You can expect to burn about 3/4 to 1 gallon per hour. For your first long trip, it is a good idea to bring along a 3 gallon gas can, since I discovered the hard way that the gas pickup tube in the gas tank had been cut off about 4" above the bottom, probably in attempt to not suck grunge off the bottom. I religiously add MMF and Stabil to the gas, and I also empty the gas tank every winter.

There are 3 systems that you could go through this winter:
- fuel lines: change out all of the rubber fuel lines for new EtOH-tolerant rubber. Also install a polishing filter between the fuel pump and carb.
- water pump- replace the impeller.
- distributor cap and innards (points, rotor, etc.)
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