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  #1   IP: 71.181.37.42
Old 03-03-2014, 05:31 PM
ArtJ ArtJ is offline
 
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Engine Compartment Fire Extinquishing System

a season or two ago I contemplated adding a Fireboy extinquishing system
to my engine compartment. I ended up not doing it because of limited space
in the engine box. The Tartan 34c has a small fiberglass compartment/seat
which lifts off right in the center of the main salon.

I have removed two of 4 batteries with more space available, now am reevaluating a fire extinquishing
system. I have looked at the Fireboy systems in Hamilton Marine's Catalog.

The problem is the catalog states that they will automatically go off
at 165 degrees F. The problem is that the engine runs at 180 degrees F
normally and the tiny box approximately 2 ft x 3ft x 4ft (guess only)
get much hotter normally due to engine and dry exhaust to standpipe.
if the engine is ran for hours with the top cover on , it almost gets too hot to touch
normally. I leave cover off on long engine runs presently.

So I would be worried that the alarm would go off automatically too early
I called Fireboy and asked if they made a version with either a higher
trip point or strictly manual control. Also if they had a version in which
a hose could allow the extinquisher to be mounted remotely .
The tech person was gone for the day, but the operator insisted
that they automatically go off at 175 degrees F , not 165. Still too low
for my application. She also stated it is not Halon.

Does anyone have suggestions for how to solve this issue with
various extinquishers. I would like to be able to pull
a cord remotely in case of fire, or have it go off around 300 degrees F??

Comments appreciated

Art
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  #2   IP: 216.115.121.240
Old 03-03-2014, 07:11 PM
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I'm not trying to be a smart-alec, but I think if your engine box is too hot to touch, you have a fire hazard!

I wish I had your extra heat though. I could use it.

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Last edited by lat 64; 03-03-2014 at 07:18 PM.
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  #3   IP: 71.181.37.42
Old 03-03-2014, 07:18 PM
ArtJ ArtJ is offline
 
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Not too hot to touch, but hot. That's the way the T34C runs by design.
Even with Normal temperature on engine.
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  #4   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 03-03-2014, 08:17 PM
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In an engine room the best fire suppresant is CO 2 since it offers the restart option which you must have. Halon is no longer sold for this purpose. In your situation I would find a way to cobble a remote CO 2 B-2 unit thru a pipe and dispersal fitting in the engine room. You don't need automatic because you're going to be there when it happens. You need a chain pull manual set up that allows you to fight the fire without opening that hatch.
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  #5   IP: 174.58.84.3
Old 03-03-2014, 09:16 PM
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I had a buddy that had a halon bottle mounted on the inside of his engine box on the t 34. Far as I know it was halon. Almost 20 years ago.

Yes the t34 is a very hot enclosure. I have been trying get mine cooler for years. I am amazed that none have caught fire. Seems most guys just avoid the issue.
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  #6   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 03-03-2014, 09:27 PM
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I have a halon automatic mounted in my engine room but it is near to the bottom of acceptable pressure range. The USCG has always honored it on inspection but will not allow it to be replaced or recharged. I will soon be shopping myself.
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  #7   IP: 71.181.37.42
Old 03-04-2014, 10:09 AM
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THanks for the inputs guys. I will look into the remote co2 option

I keep the blower running always whenever the engine is running.
I also, as mentioned above, remove the cover when running engine for extended
periods of time.
Thirdly, a particularly hot spot is where the dry exhaust bends upward
at a 90 degree angle. This spot is very close to the plywood battery
compartment corner. It originally had a plugged T there I replaced it
with a elbow, which helped a little. I also double wrapped the area
with exhaust wrap and covered that will a piece of stove pipe.
The Tartan factory originally used asbestos plaster, which may have
helped insulate that. But that is long gone before I owned the boat.

I wonder if there is a way to combine the Tartan standpipe with a
double walled water cooled exhaust pipe for the first couple of feet instead
of letting it be dry and wrapped only?

Best Regards
Art
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  #8   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 03-04-2014, 10:14 AM
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Art - Is it possible to increase the size of the motor box to get more clearance?
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  #9   IP: 71.181.37.42
Old 03-04-2014, 11:48 AM
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Hanley there is a adjacent outboard compartment that can hold 4 large
batteries which when only 2 are mounted has room for a extinquisher.
The only question is what ambient temperature can the (co2 ?) extinquisher
withstand.
To enlarge the box would be very impractical due to space constrains
for passage, table, bunks.

Thanks

Art
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  #10   IP: 174.65.48.149
Old 03-04-2014, 07:23 PM
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For shits and giggles can you get some engine compartment temps?
I have a fireboy mounted about 1 foot away from my engine. It also says it goes off automatically at 165F. It never has gone off though. You might be pleasantly surprised at the temps you get.
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  #11   IP: 71.178.87.84
Old 03-04-2014, 09:25 PM
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Art, my hot section is only 1/2" from the bottom of my teak plywood galley cabinet. I bought some of that self-adhesive firewall insulation lots of folks put in their cars...it at least keeps the wood from catching fire by close contact and disperses the heat.

No solution for your immediate issue of an extinguishing system though.
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  #12   IP: 174.58.84.3
Old 03-04-2014, 09:48 PM
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My dry exhaust section got so hot, I finally just wrapped tubing around it. Sorry but I dont know how to make the image smaller.

Try right click, then view image.
Attached Images
 
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  #13   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 03-04-2014, 11:06 PM
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Oddly enough this old Windows 2000 allows me to save the image from the post and resize it, but the right click and view option does not work. Shawn, help us out here. BTW, RC; that's a lot of copper - are you makin' sumpthin' down there?

Last edited by hanleyclifford; 07-13-2016 at 08:30 PM.
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  #14   IP: 71.178.87.84
Old 03-04-2014, 11:22 PM
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Hanley, I use paint.NET. It is free and works on Windoze just fine..maybe even Windows 2000 according to the link. You need the Microsoft .NET framework 3.5 framework though, which it will install if needed. For a free product, this far exceeds regular old MS Paint and other products out there, although Paint will re-size pics just fine too.

Cameras on phones these days have so many megapixels they overwhelm us. I re-size all my pics with the tool mentioned above. I e-mail it to myself or move it to the HDD or whatever, and then re-size with this tool and then post it.

Like any other free product, don't fall for all the other links and free stuff on the site. Just keep an eye on what you click.

http://www.getpaint.net/download.html#download

RC, have you plumbed some antifreeze into that copper line!!?!???!?!?!?

Another trick is to use CTRL and (+) or (-) to change the total Internet browser aspect..this often works with huge pics.
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Last edited by sastanley; 03-04-2014 at 11:31 PM.
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  #15   IP: 174.58.84.3
Old 03-05-2014, 12:34 AM
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I was planning on running some sort of fluid thru the tubing, probably anti freeze. It is 110 feet of 1/4 tubing. A lot of resistance. Maybe just blow air thru it. As of now, it is just there. It seems to be keeping cool enough. I have not run the engine for very long yet, so am still in the testing phase.

I think that I should have really tried to ventilate the space much better, rather then doing this. I was trying to stay more mechanical.

To run anti freeze, I might need another pump. maybe I can tee the salt water, or the anti freeze. Choices...

BTW, I have a Mac. I resized a picture a while ago, but cant remember how I did it. Cant remember much now a days. I will eventually ask wife. She loves computers.
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Old 03-05-2014, 10:05 AM
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The more I look at that coil the more I see a new (to me) concept in exhaust system cooling. Why not run the raw discharge thru it and then overboard? Of course it will not take the full volume at pressures our pumps develop but a diverter system would cure that....hmmm
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  #17   IP: 161.213.49.150
Old 03-05-2014, 10:57 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Maybe a handy dandy cabin heater? All you would need is a pump and a radiator in the living space. I think anyway - I'm not an expert in such matters.
Lat 64 are you logged on?

TRUE GRIT

Last edited by JOHN COOKSON; 03-05-2014 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 03-05-2014, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
The more I look at that coil the more I see a new (to me) concept in exhaust system cooling.
Quote:
Maybe a handy dandy cabin heater?
This is actually an experiment on my to-do list. I was just waiting to come across a cheap heater core from a suitable truck or car. And saving up for all the copper
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  #19   IP: 174.58.84.3
Old 03-05-2014, 12:28 PM
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Hanley, that was the concept.

I have only started with it. I dont know that it has much application though. I know that the Tartan 34 has a big problem with exhaust heat. Again, I am surprised that none have caught fire.

What seemed the easiest, was to send some salt water thru the tubing. At 110 feet long, there would be a lot of resistance, and probably little flow. It might be plenty enough though.

It still seems rather Rube Goldberg still.
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  #20   IP: 161.213.49.150
Old 03-05-2014, 01:23 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romantic comedy View Post
Hanley, that was the concept.
I have only started with it. I dont know that it has much application though. I know that the Tartan 34 has a big problem with exhaust heat. Again, I am surprised that none have caught fire.
What seemed the easiest, was to send some salt water thru the tubing. At 110 feet long, there would be a lot of resistance, and probably little flow. It might be plenty enough though.
It still seems rather Rube Goldberg still.
I think it sounds like a neat idea.
When (and if) you plumb it do it so the water goes up through the tubing. If you do it this way I think you will get quite a bit of cooling with a small amount of water flow.
There are sort of two schools of thought on this: Move the liquid in the tubing slowly so it adsorbs as much heat as possible on its way through the cooling coil or move the cooling liquid fast so it stays as cool as possible. Or of course somewhere in between the two.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 03-05-2014, 01:31 PM
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FYI - You could save some copper by running a 1.5 inch copper pipe inside of a 2 or 2.5 inch copper pipe and running water through the space between, As a matter of fact, some old boats come with exhaust systems made just that way
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Old 03-05-2014, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
FYI - You could save some copper by running a 1.5 inch copper pipe inside of a 2 or 2.5 inch copper pipe and running water through the space between, As a matter of fact, some old boats come with exhaust systems made just that way
I have done a little checking on that and the price comes up around $400. What distinguishes RC's idea is that it remains dry to the iron but the system keeps the strength of the iron and shape of the riser so that a reduced amount of water can still be run thru the waterlift as before. The objective is to reduce the ugly work the exhaust gases have to do driving water uphill but still cool the system for safety. Hence RC's first move should be to install a diverter valve at the hot section and then plumb the copper with an overboard discharge.
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Old 03-05-2014, 02:58 PM
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I have a stand pipe, so no worries with a water lift.

If I sent some salt water thru the tubing, then back to the stand pipe, it might not flow at all. There needs to be some pressure difference, and I dont know if I would have it. With a separate discharge, some water might flow. i could also make another entrance to the standpipe. I dont want to fool with a 40 year old piece of copper though. Else I cold introduce the tubing water down stream of the standpipe. I would have to tap into the exhaust hose, i guess.

The anti freeze side might also work.
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romantic comedy View Post
I have a stand pipe, so no worries with a water lift.

If I sent some salt water thru the tubing, then back to the stand pipe, it might not flow at all. There needs to be some pressure difference, and I dont know if I would have it. With a separate discharge, some water might flow. i could also make another entrance to the standpipe. I dont want to fool with a 40 year old piece of copper though. Else I cold introduce the tubing water down stream of the standpipe. I would have to tap into the exhaust hose, i guess.

The anti freeze side might also work.
So your main benefit is a cooler hot secton which is what Art needs too. I would not tap into the standppe or exhaust pipe but rather install a new discharge fitting well above the water line.
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Old 03-05-2014, 05:25 PM
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When deciding whether to use salt water or anti-freeze, know that at a certain temperature threshold* salt precipitates out of sea water and can form salt crystals resulting in blockage. This is not uncommon with water jacketed exhaust elbows.


*Somehow I remember the temp threshold is ~165° but please don't rely on that figure.
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