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  #1   IP: 70.91.159.33
Old 03-25-2011, 01:21 PM
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Yet another Used A4 Newbie

Greetings Afourians.
I am, like so many others who happen upon this site, the new owner of a later model sailboat with an ailing A4. I just moved up from a 1967 27' Bristol to a 1973 33' Pearson. The boat is in pretty good shape considerring her age and having been on the hard these past 6 or so years with very little attention.
I was fully aware that the engine was non-functioning when I made the purchase. During my pre-purchase inspection I did note a fairly new looking coil and distributor as well as a fresh water cooling system and electronic fuel pump. The engine itself is not too bad looking at it externally, Far better than some I looked at during my shopping around. The previous owner was quick to demonstrate that she does turn over from the starter very well, but has virtually zero compression in any cylinder. Still, I am encouraged that someday she'll run again.
With spring here and having completed several correctional projects in preparation for the upcoming season so I can at least sail, it's time to get busy with that engine. That in mind and for the past few weeks I've been gleening over this site and reading many of the forum postings and collecting information.
I have to tell you I have not happened across a more helpful, insightful and encouraging site on any subject as I have seen here, Kudo's to all! I will also add that were it not for this site and the resource it represents, my level of optimism for getting the engine operational again would probably not be as great as it is.
Thank you all in advance.
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Old 03-25-2011, 05:38 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
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Talking Welcome

Bold, welcome to the forum! Get ready to get familiar with the valve train galley or perhaps a head removal due to zero compression. Good thing she spins so get some spray oil into the spark plug holes to start the stems and guides soaking a bit.

Dave Neptune
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Old 03-25-2011, 05:51 PM
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I am encouraged by your story because
  1. The engine has the outward appearance of being well cared for. If the previous owner took care of the outside both in appearance and function (FWC is a huge indicator) he likely took care of it on the inside too.
  2. The engine is spinning. This implies it hasn't been backflooded through the exhaust.
I think you have a lot to work with and it probably won't take too long to get there. When it comes to resurrecting an engine that's been idle for years, among others around here, Dave's da man!

Plan on thoroughly going through all ancillary systems too (fuel, exhaust, electrical). They don't like sitting idle either.
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Old 03-25-2011, 06:14 PM
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Bold,
To elaborate on Dave's comments, the most likely reason for your zero compression readings are because an A4's valves and valve guides are made of steel. Sitting for any length of time will routinely cause them to "bind'" together resulting in your "stuck valve" situation. Pouring MMO (Marvel Mystery Oil) into the cylinders will free them up sometimes, but on some occasions a head removal is in order. Having a "rotating" engine assembly is definately a good sign so hang on while we help you through the rehab process.
Tom
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Old 03-25-2011, 06:44 PM
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Rascal-
To add to the other's advice, here's a quote from our "Great Father" Don regarding an engine that has been idle...


Precautions when starting up an engine that has been sitting idle
Assuming that the previous owner followed the simple procedure of “fogging” the engine with Marvel Mystery Oil when it was last shut down, and/or that the engine still turns freely, there are only a few things that you need to be concerned about.

1) During early attempts to start, we recommend keeping the raw water thru hull valve closed until the engine actually starts, to insure that you won't flood the exhaust system (and engine) with water. As soon as the engine does start however, be sure that you open the valve immediately.

2) Remove the spark plugs and turn the engine over a few times on the starter to check for compression. The compression should be enough so as to make it practically impossible to hold your thumb over the each of the spark plug holes while the engine is turning over. If one of two cylinders are weak, it might be that one of the valves is slightly hanging up. This condition will probably clear up as soon as the engine starts. A few squirts of Marvel Mystery Oil in the weak cylinders would be helpful.

3) Check all fuel filters, and inspect the fuel supply by removing one of the plugs in the bottom of the carburetor (preferably the “main passage plug”). Then pump some fuel through the carburetor and into a small glass container, by either working the manual priming lever on the mechanical fuel pump, or by powering the electrical fuel pump.

If the fuel appears clean and free of water, reprime the carburetor, and inspect the choke valve to insure that it fully closes when you pull the choke control in the cockpit. You should then be ready to start, fuel-wise.

NOTE: There is frequently a lot of concern over old fuel. If later, the engine won't start and you think that it is due to old fuel (like if it smells funny and has a strange color), I would suggest that you pump off enough to try it in a lawn mower or other small engine prior to going through the rigors of draining and replacing all the fuel. Not that you may not want to do a lot of heavy maintenance on the fuel supply at some point, but you can probably pick a better time when you're dealing with a lot of other start-up issues. In most cases, the concern over old fuel is overstated.

4) Clean the points by rotating the engine until they are closed, and then run a piece of cardboard between them. Then, with the ignition switch on, flick the points open and closed a few times while holding the main coil lead from the top of the coil about a quarter of an inch from the head, while observing for a good spark. If the spark is healthy (a half inch or better), the engine should be ready to start, ignition-wise.

5) Check for good oil in the crankcase, charge the batteries, and start the engine.




Keep us posted as you dive in...
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Old 03-25-2011, 06:52 PM
smosher smosher is offline
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I wonder if the po thought it was electrical by swapping out the ignition system.

Wouldn't hurt to see if you have spark.

Whats the condition of the exhaust ?

Steve
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Old 03-25-2011, 08:36 PM
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Thumbs up

BR, I was an A-4 newbie in late 2008. Everyone else has provided all the pertinent information.

We are here when you need it.
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"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
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Old 03-27-2011, 09:19 PM
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Thanks all for the welcome and helpful tips, and above all the encouragement.
Where to start? When I was first able to last november, I did pull the spark plugs and literally poured 2 qts of MMO into all the cylinders and just let it sit.

Last week after getting my batteries into thier proper places and having replaced some badly corroded cables I eventually got round to cranking her over. All spark plugs were removed and the intake sea cock closed. I had no intentions on getting her fired, I just wanted to turn her over a few times and see if there was any improvement with the compression. There was but still not enough to blow by finger pressure on any cylinder. I had also disconnected a fuel line to see what the fuel supply might be doing, Nothing...

I did hear a slight muffled continuous clicking noise that came on and off with the ignition switch, Not the start button, Electronic fule pump? Still no fuel though.

Folding my 6'4" frame down into a side locker removed the fuel line and pick-up tube fitting. It's lower 6" had a coating of some heavy thick black crusty residue.

Yesterday I hand pumped 12 gallons of some very green old gas out of the fuel tank. I also replaced the paper element inline filter and thoroughly cleaned (Gum-out) the Racor style filter.

Given the observed build up on the pick-up tube I decided to remove the tank and give it a good cleaning. I need to repack the propeller shaft stuffing box anyway. The tank is now out and has a gallon of well swished around acetone in there breaking things down. The pick-up end of the pick-up tube was pretty much clogged and will be cleaned this week. Any insights on tank cleaning?

I also pulled the carburator, It was full of MMO and while draining it out noted lots of sediment. Time to order a rebuild kit from MM.
Any suggestions on what to do with the old fuel? Any tips on cleaning the Carb? I want to get the fuel system right before moving on to the next system.

Thanks.
Mike
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Old 03-28-2011, 02:06 PM
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Mike,

Welcome to the forum!. Looks like you've waded right in and aren't afraid to get your hands dirty. I'm sure we'll be able to get you up and running.

My guess at this point is that are almost certainly multiple stuck valves. Use lots of MMO, repeatedly. If they' re not too bad, you may be able to free them by pressing down (not too hard!) on them with the short arm of an allen wrench inserted through the spark plug holes.

Failing that, your next best bet is accessing the valve bottoms through the valve cover side plate, located behind the carb and manifold.

And, if all else fails, there's always removing the head. But one step at a time. And patience, lots of patience. They WILL come free, it may just take a lot of repeated gentle persuasion (and lots of MMO!).

On a different note, as a new Pearson owner, there's another group you may want check out: The Pearson Sailing Assoc. of the Chesapeake Bay. If you're interested, send me a PM and I'll fill you in.
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Old 03-28-2011, 10:21 PM
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Old gas woes

Not that I want to start a new thread or anything. I'm sure those with more experience than I have already seen how old gas can morph into a less than desireable cumbustible.
Following are photo's taken today of water? collected from the 12 gallons of old gas I pumped out of my 20 gallon tank this past sunday. The container is a clear plastic 1 gallon jug. Sooo glad this stuff separates. much relieved I took the time and trouble to pull the tank and drain it. BTW, the acetone did a great job of breaking down old deposits inside the tank. I drained out the first gallon and swished around another gallon as a chaser. After an hour or so I drained that out and was happy with the result. much clearer but still a little brown, like weak coffee. I now have 3 gallons of white distilled vinager in the tank and will let that work on whatever might be remaining until I power wash it this weekend.
The interior of the pick up tube was cleaned using a small bore riffle cleaning brush.
I lucked out and was able to contact the 2nd (of 4) PO's who had the FW cooling system installed back in 2000, whole nother story but the gent also let me know that the interior of the engine itself had been cleaned out prior to installing the FW system. New fuel lines and all other hoses were installed as well.
I have ordered a Carb rebuild kit and some new side cover gaskets as I plan to remove the intake manifold and get into the valve chamber this weekend. Thanks all for your helpful tips.

PS: I'm a little nervous about rebuilding the carb myself.
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Old 03-28-2011, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bold Rascal View Post
I have ordered a Carb rebuild kit and some new side cover gaskets as I plan to remove the intake manifold and get into the valve chamber this weekend. Thanks all for your helpful tips.

PS: I'm a little nervous about rebuilding the carb myself.
Don't fear the carb! With the exception of the needle valve, it's pretty easy to disassemble and clean. The needle valve and float assembly are a little pesky, and somewhat fragile. You will need to remove them in order to replace the carb's main gasket. The float hinge pin may be a little corroded in place, but it will come out. Check out this thread
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4727
on my first foray into the A4's carb. Dave Neptune's info on measuring the float adjustment are invaluable!

Also, as I learned, modern EPA-compliant carb cleaners are a pale shadow of their former selves. Most deposits and varnish found in a dirty carb will require some scrubbing, and jets will require a fine wire to clean them out properly. Carb cleaner and compressed air alone won't do it!
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Old 03-28-2011, 11:16 PM
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In addition to solvent and compressed air, this is the tool I use to clean out the tiny ports in the carb.
http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hardw...51&catalogId=1
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Had my hands in a few others
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Old 03-28-2011, 11:17 PM
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Mike - +1 what Ed said. The carb is the first (of many) tasks I tackled the first winter with much trepidation. It must be in tip top shape. You've already started to tackle the big job of making sure the fuel supply is good (which it obviously wasn't)..that is 90% of the battle in my opinion.

There are some small parts, but if you can, have yourself enough workspace and lay it out as you go, piece by piece...it goes back in the same way.

Read up on the tips about things like Permatex on particular sides of the gaskets, which help to insure a seal, but allow possibility for quick disassembly in the future. (i.e. permatex on one side of the manifold/carb flange gasket in case you have to remove the carb in a hurry and hope to not ruin the gasket.) Sometimes, the carb comes off clean, and sometimes it doesn't. I don't put Permatex on the carb side, in case I need to quickly clean & reinstall or install a spare carb without the chance to clean flange surfaces. Like I said, sometimes a clean break, sometimes not.
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"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
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Old 03-28-2011, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
... this is the tool I use to clean out the tiny ports in the carb.
http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hardw...51&catalogId=1
That's the exact same thing I use!
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Old 03-29-2011, 07:09 PM
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What is your fuel tank made of?

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Old 03-29-2011, 09:10 PM
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I won't argue with success and I admit to using tip cleaners for numerous tasks other than cleaning oxy/acetylene tips but do keep in mind that each little wire in the set is a miniature round file. It will remove metal and enlarge holes if one is not careful.

Mark
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Old 03-30-2011, 01:01 PM
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The wire peeled out of a bread twist tie also works to ream out those little holes.

Don't fear the carb. Once you have it apart you'll be surprised it's complicated enough to do anything at all, much less what it does.
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Old 03-30-2011, 08:17 PM
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You guys are the greatest! Not that I appreciatte anyone having difficulties in thier efforts but, your willingness to share insights and discoveries, knowledge and know how are the best tool of all!

I did order a carb rebuild kit from MM, just waiting for it to arrive. I do have an air compressor and a decent work area so thats my project for the weekend? Hopefully all will go well (it will be warmer) and there will be time for other things, Like repacking that stuffing box.

The fuel tank is made from Monel, Pretty sure it's the original. It still has distilled white vinegar sloshing around in there. The tank looks pretty clean inside.

Looks like a timing light, tack and dwell meter are in my future. How do use the timing lights if there are no timing marks?. I'm harkenning back to my earlier years when I did my own tune-ups.

Thank you all again for the tips and encouragement. I'll keep you up to date on my progress.
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Old 03-30-2011, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bold Rascal View Post
Looks like a timing light, tack and dwell meter are in my future. How do use the timing lights if there are no timing marks?.

Here's the basic procedure for STATIC TIMING:

1) Remove all spark plugs and rotate the engine in a counterclockwise direction until you begin to feel compression in the first cylinder.
Stop turning at the first sign of compression, and then continue to slowly rotate the engine while observing the roll pin in the center of the flywheel.
Stop turning when the roll pin is vertical.
The engine is now set with the first cylinder at Top Dead Center (TDC) of its compression stroke.

2) Connect a 12 volt timing light across the primary terminals of the coil and rotate the housing of the distributor a small distance in each direction (with the ignition switch on) to locate the point where the light turns off.
Retighten the hold-down bracket.
This is the point in the engine rotation where the secondary discharge occurs which will be sent to the number one cylinder (at the flywheel end of the engine).

You may also want to look at this thread about finding TDC...
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...ming+procedure

Hopefully that makes sense?
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Old 03-30-2011, 09:14 PM
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You may want to read this thread as well as long as you're finding TDC.
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4743
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prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
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Old 04-11-2011, 09:08 PM
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Aaaargh, broken valve, "Idiot"<<<

Greetings all! had to take some time away from working on the boat these past couple of weeks. Moyer Marine was very prompt in sending me the carb rebuild kit and other gaskets I orderred. Love that quick turn around.
The weather here on the lower Chesapeake was great on saturday so my best mate and I took the Bold Rascal out for an afternoon sail. I have an outboard motor rigged up on the transome to get us out and in until I get the A4 running again. It was so nice getting back out on the water again. I took the day off today and dedicated it to freeing up those stuck valves.
I did remove the side cover, the 2 bolts holding it in place were not tight at all. Bumping the engine over off the starter I was able to easily see which valves were stuck, 3 of the 4 exhaust valves and a few lifters as well. The forward most valve just would not budge. Plenty of MMO and PBB had no effect as it did with the others. I tried the allen wrench down the piston hole and tapped and tapped and tapped, nothing. I finally gave up and accepted that the head would have to be pulled, this took some time but eventually it came off exposing the one stuck forward most valve standing tall. More PBB letting it soak several minutes again. Took my trusty ball peen hammer gave it a couple good taps and the head snapped off! My fault, quietly cursing all the while. Yes, I Should have been more careful.
Ultimately I was able to drive the remaining stem post down, bumping the engine to push it back up the driving it down again. It's still not "free" but at least I have a shot at getting it extracted. It's soaking in PBB until next weekend. So what's involved with getting that stem out? Gonna be searching the forums for tips and insights. That forward most valve stem and spring are gonna be real hard to work on given the configuration of the engine compartment.
It's probably a blessing in disguise though, Many of the valves have a substantial amount of build up on the tops and around the seats, an "in boat" valve job? Wish me luck!
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Old 04-12-2011, 02:31 PM
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If you do not have one already, order the valve spring compression tool from Myer right away. While I have recently found it is possible to replace the springs with out it (story to be posted soon :-) ) I have found the minimal price to be well worth it if you do not have the tool already. I could not find one locally for less then 100.
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Old 04-12-2011, 02:58 PM
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Thanks for the advice Bryan. I was "this close" to orderring it last night while orderring my new exhaust valve and head gasket. I'm still kicking myself for breaking that valve. Should have been much more carefull.....Regarding the tool, I have a co-worker who has one, maybe not the exact same item but it should do the job.
I am not looking forward to this at all...
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Old 04-12-2011, 10:13 PM
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Bold Rascal,

Call the Moyer parts line directly...Ken will steer you in the right direction regarding parts. He is just as valuable a resource to the Moyer team as Stephen, Don & Admin Bill.

Since you are on the Eastern Shore it is one day via UPS.
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"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif
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Old 04-14-2011, 09:47 AM
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Ken is awesome!

My friend and co-worker did bring in his spring compression tool. Much as I appreciatte it, it's HUGE! So Sastanley, I took your advice and called Ken in parts, he was super helpful and has my replacement valve, (8) new springs, some keepers (just in case) and, a nifty (more managable) spring compression tool on thier way to me, hopefully in time for the weekend. Ken also mentioned that one of the forum users has a valve service related thread/post which is nicely illustrated and complimentary to the Moyer Manual. If anyone can point me in it's direction?

Sastanley, I see your in Solomons, MD. without a doubt one of my favorite places on the bay, Count your blessings my friend. Hopefully we'll have this A4up and running in a few weeks and will be moored there over the Memorial day weekend.

Thanks Ken!
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