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  #1   IP: 198.151.13.8
Old 08-04-2008, 10:22 AM
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Believe I have stuck exhaust valves. Still have a question

Don,
I attended your seminar this spring and called you about a week ago about a coil for my Atomic-4. It appears that my exhaust valves are stuck and I am planning on attacking the problem tonight.

Here is a quick question for you if you don't mind:
Can you explain why I was able to run the motor last week (it took awhile but it did start). The engine ran fine for the 20 mins or so it took me to get out to the race course. I then was unable to get the motor started again and that is when I determined it was related to the exhaust valves.

Is it possible for exhaust valves to get unstuck just from trying to start the motor for quite a while? I was trying to start the motor for 20+ mins before it did finally start.

1. This whole year I do NOT open the raw water intake until the engine starts
2. The most recent time, the engine ran fine although there was some awful 'metal on metal' sound in the engine for 10-15 seconds then went away and the engine ran fine

I plan on trying to free up the valves via the top of the cylinder today. If that doesn't work I plan on getting to them via the side of the engine and finally via the head if that is necessary.

Any other recommendations?

David Hagler
Pearson 30
Annapolis, MD
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Old 08-04-2008, 05:46 PM
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David,

The simple answer to your question relative to exhaust valves is that they definitely do not normally unstick simply from cranking for a while.

This reply of course leaves unanswered the question of why your engine did not start. If an engine won't start in the first 15 or 20 seconds of cranking, it is usually best to troubleshoot and determine why. This would involve the process of pulling the coil lead out of the center of the distributor cap and checking for a secondary discharge to the head or block, removing the flame arrestor to check for raw fuel puddling in the intake throat of the carburetor, and lastly, a thumb check of each spark plug hole for compression.

Did you try a thumb check of your compression to determine that the exhaust valves were in fact sticking? If your exhaust valves really were sticking, they must have been sticking very, very lightly and literally fell down and began working after you cranked for a while, which doesn't seem very likely.

Don
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Old 08-05-2008, 11:09 AM
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I know it is hard to believe. Here is what happened

I know it sounds crazy.
Here is what happened:
All of a sudden the motor took a long time to start. I put a priming 'bulb' in the fuel line to help get fuel to the carb to help start the engine more quickly. (Problem solved I thought. The motor started right away (or close to it) once I primed the fuel system.

Recently it was not starting even with the bulb. Two weeks ago it took a long time but it did start and ran fine.

Last week it didn't start at all. I checked the compression and there was NO compression on any cylinder. I am hoping that all I have to do is tap down the valves but it literally went from running fine to nothing in that short of a time period.

I hope the engine can be revived.

David Hagler
P30 Annapolis, MD
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  #4   IP: 198.151.13.8
Old 08-07-2008, 11:05 AM
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Strange things keep happening (don't know what to do now)

It must be me!
Background: My engine ran great for the time I have owned the boat (coming up in two years). Last year someone 'tuned' it up for me. Since then it hasn't run as well.
Recently: Wouldn't start and I had a bad coil. Replaced the coil and the engine ran well.
Engine stopped running again so I did a compression test. 0 compression in all four cylinders. I assumed it was exhaust valves. Don mentioned it was more likely intake valves (he has never seen all four exhaust values stick from water coming into the engine). And reading his manual I did come across his comment saying the same thing.

Don recommended using a dowel in the cylinder to test if the intake valves were moving. I did this last night. Result:

1. Three of the four valves did move when the engine turned over. The valve on cylinder #1 did move once, then I didn't really feel any movement. Each time I initially turned over the motor I did feel something.
Then out of nowhere -
2. The engine started. I don't know how, but after 4+ mins trying to get it to start it finally did start. (I kept trying because I could tell from the sound that the engine wanted to start)

It appeared to run rough initially, but after a couple of mins the engine was smooth and running fine. Then after about 15 mins of motoring the engine just died without warning (we were getting ready to start the race so not a big deal). I tried a couple of times to start it with no luck. I didn't keep trying.

I don't know what to do here. I am considering pulling the motor and doing an overhaul. (Feeling like there must be SOMETHING going on here). I don't mind trying to trouble shoot issues, but it seems to be a different thing each week and I find myself not going out on the boat as often because I am worried about the motor starting.

Here is my question to those who have pulled/worked on the motor:

What is a reasonable amount of time to expect to pull the motor, get parts and have things fixed and then re-install the motor? I realize a big part of the time has to do with me doing the work, however, if I need parts or machine work done, do people turn these tasks around in hour/days or weeks? I wouldn't mind giving up the boat for August and working on the motor if it meant that I would have it for Sept-Nov/Early Dec as those are great months to sail. However, if this is a really long process, I will just wait until the early fall, pull the boat and make it a winter project. Any suggestions?
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Old 08-07-2008, 12:34 PM
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Time

I just rebuilt my A4 this spring. Six weeks from start to finish. Lost a week with the machine shop due to my order error and the fact that they where moving at the time. All times are +_. Remove 1-2 days, disassembly 2 days. Shop time 2 to 3 weeks. Cleaning and reassembly 1 week. Bench test 1 day. Reinstall and adjust reversing gear, drive shaft etc 2 days.
Moyer can get you parts in about two business days, so try and order before Wed. Good luck. Dan
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Old 08-07-2008, 06:20 PM
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Dave,

The fact that your engine runs so well when it does start is clear evidence that it does NOT need a general overhaul.

Frustrating though it is, you must continue to methodically diagnose these mystery shutdowns and especially these episodes of total loss of compression on all cylinders one day, and then miraculously running OK the next.

Try to reach me by phone again. We need to come up with a diagnostic strategy.

Don
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Old 08-10-2008, 05:03 PM
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Still with a question

Don,
I will try to call you on Monday. I know it sounds crazy and I am not discounting the possibility that I am overlooking something really simple during this whole episode. It is possible that I messed up my compression test, but I was able to easily put my thumb over the spark plug hole and I tried each cylinder twice when I determined that there was no compression. While at your workshop I used one of your demo motors to feel what 'good' compression feels like so I think I have an idea of what to expect.

Anyway- the good news is that someone donated a old A4 to me and I took it down almost all the way to the block on Saturday. While I still have my issues with my other engine, at least I now have more comfort with the engine overall and if I need to get into the engine on my boat, at least I now have taken almost all the major components off the 'donor' engine. (As always happens to me, there was one bolt (accessory drive bolt under the water pump) that won't come loose so that is still attached. Everything else came off without a problem.

David
Annapolis, MD
Pearson 30
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Old 08-10-2008, 09:01 PM
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I once had zero compression on all my cylinders this past spring. It turned out that my gauge was bad. I'm pretty sure that even with all the valves stuck open you'd get some kind of reading above zero in the cylinder.
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Old 08-12-2008, 10:42 PM
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More interesting happenings with Engine

Re: Compression testing - I did the 'thumb' compression test, not a measured test. I didn't do a good job explaining what I was doing so I apologize. It was a thumb test (thumb should be pushed off cylinder and I didn't fell anything (granted, this was my first time trying this test so I might not have been savvy enough to pick up on the difference in pressure under my thumb.

Tonight I was on the boat and she started up on the first or second attempt. (Hasn't done that in a few months.) She was running rough but was did run (at idle, not under load). We had a theory that she was running rough due to lack of combustion on one or more of the cylinders. While the engine was running we started pulling spark plug wires. When we pulled #1 then #2 (one at a time) you could tell that the engine was feeling the effect and ran a little more roughly. When we pulled the plug wires for #3 and #4, there was no noticeable difference in how the boat ran. It appears that I am running on just 2 cylinders. (Unless there is an explanation why the engine would not change its behavior by pulling wires 3 or 4.)

I pulled the valve cover and the valves are moving up and down on #'s 3&4 and there is spark. I stopped then started the motor up again and she sputtered along fine. (Rough, but able to run). I did notice that the oil pressure was higher after taking off the valve cover and then putting it back on. Originally when the motor was just above an idle the pressure was 32psi and when we pulled off then re-installed the valve cover the pressure was more like 40. Odd but I am not sure what if anything that means.

I added a little more MMO to the engine. I am putting my fall plans on hold and hope to finish out my Wednesday night racing until I can come up with a plan of action.
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Old 08-13-2008, 10:45 AM
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> (Unless there is an explanation why the engine would not change its behavior by pulling wires 3 or 4.)

If your wires and plugs are OK, I think you have a blown head gasket between cylinders 3 and 4.
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Old 08-13-2008, 01:45 PM
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Great insight

I will pull the head in the next week or so and see if that is indeed the case. I didn't see water in the oil so I discounted the head gasket, but I guess that would make sense that it is possible. Thanks much.
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Old 08-14-2008, 08:59 AM
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Getting worse. Now it barely idles

The motor started last night but it had no power and was barely able to get out of the slip and into the river. Don't know what is up now. Time to dive in and find out what is up.
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Old 08-14-2008, 11:53 AM
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Get wet if you want, but with no compression in two cylinders I'd get dirty and pull the head before I got wet.

Edit: sorry, I thought when you said "dive in" that you had received signals from space telling you that this could be a prop or shaft problem.

Last edited by tenders; 08-14-2008 at 03:51 PM.
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  #14   IP: 68.55.7.9
Old 08-14-2008, 01:14 PM
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You are correct Sir! Head about to come off.

Knowing this isn't just a run of the mill issue anymore but a full blown 'problem' here is my plan:
1. start taking apart the pieces (check exhaust to see if clogged)
2. pull head off motor and check for head gasket
3. if nothing is obvious, start taking apart and get the pieces worked on as I go.
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Old 08-15-2008, 07:23 AM
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You might want to try to first replace plugs and/or plug wires. This made a difference on my engine. Good luck.
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Old 08-15-2008, 11:26 AM
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Seeing as the engine ran fine a short while ago, and then has episodes of poor running, I'm inclined to believe you don't need a head job.

Have you ruled out two things? 1. Exhaust backpressure 2. Fuel clogs

If the exhaust system gets clogged, it can run better on three cylinders than on four since the extra air from the fourth can't squeeze through. If you're about to do head surgery, pull the exhaust off first and do an autopsy on it.
Watch Beverly Hills Cop to see what effects a banana in the tailpipe has on Taggert's car.

Why have you ruled out fuel? I noticed you had success after priming the bulb in the beginning. Perhaps that cleared out some clog but another has taken its place? I'd clean the carb out and try again.

Before this happened did you see any signs? No oil in the water, no water in the oil, no smoking exhaust noted, valves seem functional, no exhaust fumes noted in the engine compartment...
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Old 08-17-2008, 09:38 PM
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David,

I'm not an expert but maybe a fresh set of eyes and ears may be of some help. I live in Crownsville so I'm not far from your boat.
Let me know, I'm more than willing to take a peek at your engine.

BTW: I also race (trying to learn anyway) with RBSA. I have the old black Pearson that hardly ever finishes before TLE..

Mike
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Old 08-18-2008, 02:21 PM
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Love to have another set of eyes

Regarding the other questions:
1. the plugs and wires are less than a year old
2. I have tried using 'new' gas and the behavior is the same
3. I am going to look for blockage in the exhaust and see what else I can find.

Mike-
I am heading down to the boat this Wednesday (hoping to get out somehow to race on Wednesday) and would love to have another set of eyes on the boat. Please email if you are available. If Wednesday isn't good just let me know when might be good for you and we will go from there.

David Hagler
dshag1@comcast.net
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:27 AM
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Strange but true (I have witnesses) Still don't know what to do

I am at a loss what to do with the engine but last nights events give me a little hope that there might be a simpler answer to my current engine problems:

The most current events are:
1. Two weeks ago the engine started, ran really rough (shut down because it ran so poorly)
2. Last week it started up and ran fine (a little rough initially but then ran fine)
3. Four days ago, no life at all when trying to start. (only tried for a minute or two and just sailed in/out of the slip.
5. Yesterday, started up on the second attempt to start. Ran rough for 4-5 mins (backfire, no power -yet good water flow out the exhaust) then like a switch flipped and the engine went right up to full power and ran smoothly for the next 20 mins or so with no problems at all.

Someone on the boat asked if I had looked inside the distributer. He thought maybe the timing advance springs were maybe bad or something.

Am I overlooking something really simple ??

David Hagler
Pearson 30
Annapolis, MD
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Old 08-28-2008, 12:26 PM
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During my last round of engine power problems, a neighbor of mine who calls himself a marine mechanic looked in my distributor and told me that my advance was messed up. He also hooked up a timing light to "determine" this problem. We oiled the springs and no change. I bought a new distributor - no change. Point here is that these distributors are REALLY robust and VERY simple. Basically, if you can push the rotor to one direction (I forget what direction, but it only goes one way) and it snaps back, your springs and advance are probably just fine. That's how you might want to rule this issue out. My problem turned out to be an exhaust restriction in the hot exhaust area that necessitated an entire new exhaust system. Your reported no compression at times is a headscratcher in light of the fact that the engine runs fine sometimes. You might want to spend $30 on a compression gauge to determine once and for all exactly what your compression is on each cylinder. Automotive stores have 'em and they are a nice diagnostic tool for these engines.
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Old 08-28-2008, 12:44 PM
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David,

Something in one of your earlier posts caught my attention. It's the horrible metal on metal sound you experienced when these problems began.

A few years ago I had a confounding problem that ended up being broken valve springs in cylinders 3&4. Initially I diagnosed stuck valves by a finger test. I squirted Mystery Oil in there and pushed the valves down with a bent screwdriver and cranked and when I tried compression testing they were fine--110 psi. But still the engine was running rough and under load or revving, I was getting no power from no.s 3&4. Finally, I put the compression tester on the cylinders with the engine running and revved it and the compression dropped to zero as the RPMs rose. It seems the valves were dropping down under their own weight and creating compression when run by the starter motor or at idle, but not when the RPM's were high. When I pulled off the valve plate everything looked fine, but when I touched the springs I could see that though they appeared fine I was only looking at a few pieces of spring. The rest had fallen into the bottom of the valve access.

While I recognize your problems are almost opposite, the kicker is that all of my problems started after the season start up when the engine was running perfectly, then suddenly there was a horrible metal on metal noise. Check those valve springs!

Good luck, Greg Haegele
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Old 09-04-2008, 11:45 AM
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Many thanks to those who responded. I am without a computer for awhile

My computer blew up over the weekend so I couldn't respond to the posts. Thanks so much for the story of the valve springs. I just raced my last Wednesday night race in Annapolis and my goal now is to get the motor running so I can enjoy the fall season here in Annapolis.

Cheers,
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Old 09-12-2008, 09:28 AM
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Found the problem. Now looking for best solution

I almost have my home computer back up to speed. In the mean time I am taking a coffee break to update this thread.

Well I found two sticking valves. The intake valve closest to the flywheel and the second from the end (non flywheel side) exhaust valve. Along the way I have discovered that the carb is in desperate need of cleaning and that the exhaust manifold must not have been sealed against the block. (There was discoloring on the outside of the manifold near the non-flywheel side and my wife always complained of exhaust smell in the cabin after the engine ran.)

It appears that I was able to run at times because these valves must have somehow become 'unstuck' at some point which allowed my engine to run (at times very well) but then at other times not start.

Should I just pull the engine and do a valve job or try to do the valves or just 'unstick' and clean the valves while it is in the boat?

Is it possible to just 'unstick' them and then have everything be ok? This problem has been going on now for about 2 months so I am not really happy with the thought of a temporary fix as it has not helped up until this point.

I am going to check the exhaust for blockage (but it is less than 5 years old with only a few hours on the exhaust system.
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:05 AM
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End of the saga for now. (From back this fall)

Well thanks to all who posted replies about my issue. (My computer blew up and I was away from the site until March or so).

It turned out I had two sticking valves (exhaust). I pulled the engine, took it to a local engine shop (they build engine for race cars and dragsters). The folks there were great. The did a valve job and re-machined the head and block, cleaned it up and re-assembled the whole thing (including paint) for less than paid a local company to give me a tune up/oil change two years ago.

It was slow, but kind of easy to get the engine out of the boat. I had it over the winter and rebuilt the carb, cleaned the exhaust manifold and fixed up some problems with the manual fuel pump.

The crew helped me put the engine back in the boat. The hardest part was getting a freeze plug back in the block (the one behind the starter). My friend came over and re-tapped the hole and got it back in. I put all the pieces back together.

She started on the first try without the choke! She ran better than she ever ran before (I have only had her for three years but she always stalled but ran fine under full load until my problems started last summer). Seems like all is good for now. She is really pretty sitting there in her mounts. No vibration at idle and no stalling when going from forward to reverse! I tried adjusting the idle on the carb but she liked it right where she started. I never even bothered to make timing adjustments since she ran so well.

Thanks to Don and the forum for all the help and encouragement! It was a great experience and hopefully I will have good season with her this year. I also attended the spring 'training' in Penn. last year which was a HUGE help once I got to taking all the pieces out and messing around.

P.S.
The only problem I had was one time she stopped drawing water into the engine for about 2-3 mins. I noticed the temp and the lack of water and shut her down. I pulled the thermostat and started her again after a rest and cool down and she ran a little cool (110-120) but the water was going through the system fine. Not sure what to make of that. I did install the Moyer space and used the less expensive thermostat. I checked the therm at home and she worked correctly (Opened when she should have) so I am not sure why they system couldn't get water through it with the therm in.)
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Old 04-22-2009, 12:21 PM
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The new thermostat I installed did not function properly on the boat. It would stick open some times and then not open at all the next time. It worked fine when tested in a pot of water. I ended up removing it and using a ball valve to control the flow. I can get her to run at any temp I want. If you try this the valve should be installed in the line from the engine to the exhaust. Dan S/V Marian Claire
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