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Old 09-10-2014, 01:46 PM
A4B4Sea4 A4B4Sea4 is offline
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Broken 1/8" drain plug & "T-fitting"

My son and I are preparing to do acid and pressure flushes on his late-model A4. I've read everything I could find on the forum, but have two Qs-
-What are the dimensions of the "T-fitting" replacement referred to by Don, "...between raw water intake and intake to engine driven water pump." I searched, but can't find info about replacement, dimensions, or where to buy.
-Also, we did indeed break off the aft 1/8" drain plug while trying to remove. Could someone please provide detailed info (or point me to a link) on removal, replacement? Thanks very much!
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Old 09-10-2014, 05:45 PM
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Welcome to the Forum!

The tee fitting is the same size as your raw water inlet hose - mine's 5/8" by memory. Ask at the hardware store where the plumbing fittings are - get a brass hose tee - it will have hose barbs on all three legs. Then get a length of the same size hose for off the tee fitting to the bucket. Doesn't have to be special.

Instead of that, I just pull the raw water hose off the inlet to the pump, and replace it with another length of temporary hose. When I'm done, I hook back up the raw water.

The lower rear water drain is, sadly, a PITA to get to. You'll need to remove the alternator (if you haven't already) to see what you're doing. If you want to avoid removing the distributor, you'll need a long (like 8") 11/32" tap drill for 1/8 NPT. A left handed drill is even better, if you can find one, as it may help remove the part that's stuck in the block while you're reaming out the hole. Drill carefully, and don't go much deeper than the thickness of the block ~ 3/8" deep to avoid poking into anything else. Then run (by hand) a 1/8 NPT tap into it to clean out the old fitting and threads. Use thread goop or teflon to keep it from sticking in place when you replace it. Good luck!
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Old 09-10-2014, 08:48 PM
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Here's the raw water intake Tee on Kalina. Everything is 3/8" NPT fittings, hose bib connection (1/2" bushed down to 3/8") for the auxiliary suction hose when in use, valve seals off the Tee during normal operation.
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Old 09-11-2014, 01:56 AM
A4B4Sea4 A4B4Sea4 is offline
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Don't try this at home!

Thanks Guys!
You make it sound easy... fingers crossed!
This morning, before I read your posts and relying on the advice of Ace Hardware, I tried using a #2 extractor. Well, there wasn't enough room to get a drill in there horizontally so I used a 90 degree drill attachment which worked pretty well except it, (I), wobbled and my pilot hole was off center. Then the extractor never took hold cuz the plug is evidently badly corroded. So I went out and bought a #3 extractor- drilled a slightly bigger hole. The extractor bit, but wouldn't free the #*^_<>!!! plug. I was concerned that I might break off the extractor in there so I backed it out. ...then I read your post...
So now we're going to buy the proper tool for the job- a 1/8 NPT tap (what does NPT mean?) and try again in a couple days. Will the pilot hole being off-center be a problem? Arghhh...
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Old 09-11-2014, 08:49 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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NPT= National Pipe Thread~a standard reference.

Dave Neptune
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Old 09-11-2014, 03:42 PM
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A4B4Sea4,

When my aft 1/8" tube broke off, I noticed the PO had gooped/marine tex'd/who-knows-what? the thing back on & the area was a mess. So, I upsized the new drain to 1/4" NPT. A lot of folks here are removing the long nipple altogether and simply putting a small plug in its place..this decision is really based on your access to it. (you'll notice the larger tube does put it close to the alt. pulley.)

I still have mine in place, because it has not given me any problems yet..I have good access to this area and if it became an issue, I'd remove it.

Sometimes a good ol' sharp pic is the best thing to try and pick out the pieces of broken tubing as you slowly drill out to the original drill bit sized for that tap. You may be able to chase the threads and re-use the hole.

I shy away from things like extractors..I think they often create more problems than they solve..just my opinion though.

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Last edited by sastanley; 09-11-2014 at 03:46 PM. Reason: add picture
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Will the pilot hole being off-center be a problem? Arghhh...
This really depends on how big the hole is, and how far the hole is off center. At this point you're in the realm of careful surgery, not just drilling out a hole.... And like surgery: 'above all else, do no further harm'

Looking at the 'easyout' Irwin webpage, if you used a #3 you might have a 5/32 hole drilled? And it's off center? I would seriously consider using a small round file to slowly round up the hole to the center.

I'd suggest drilling it up just a bit to 3/16, and then get a chain saw file. They make them in 5/32, 3/16, etc.... They're long enough, not tapered, and cheap. Get a handle too. You may need to grind the end off the business end of the file so you have teeth all the way from the end. It will be tedious, and depending on your access, a bit awkward, but I'd go slowly until the hole looked more or less on center. Don't rush, it's a Zen thing, and a few thousand tiny strokes will do the trick....

Once the opening is centered, and more or less round, open it up slowly with progressively bigger drill bits till you reach 11/32 (the tap drill for 1/8 pipe). You'll have better control with a long drill bit and a normal drill, but you may not have enough room. And seriously, if you can find left handed bits (probably not at Ace, but who knows...) sometimes the heat and the left-handed drill bits do the 'easyout' thing for you.

Without knowing your skills, this is a difficult place to work on the engine even on a good day. Take your time.

Others may have better suggestions....
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
I shy away from things like extractors..I think they often create more problems than they solve..just my opinion though.
I agree. I'm honestly not sure that I've ever heard of an easy-out working. Worst case, they break off and leave a really hard bit in the hole. I've definitely heard about that!
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Old 09-11-2014, 08:55 PM
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Whatever you do keep in mind that less than an inch inside that hole is the cylinder sleeve the condition of which is unknown. One slip with a drill and you could be rebuilding that engine. As BP said, you are in surgery now.
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:49 PM
Rod Worrell Rod Worrell is offline
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Left-handed Drill Bits

Experienced a similar dilema with removing the rusted-on exhaust manifold flange that the hot section exhaust pipe threads to. After a lot of soaking with penetrating fluid, the first bolt came out fine. The second didn't. Doing much the same process as described by the other guys, we had success. Found the left-hand drill bit set at O'Reilley Auto Parts, about $12 for the set.
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Old 09-12-2014, 03:11 AM
A4B4Sea4 A4B4Sea4 is offline
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do no more harm

Awesome info guys. Thank you all!
Indeed, ...do no harm... or no more harm anyway.
Love the Zen file/pick ideas. especially since the plug seems so corroded. Gonna do it- I'll burn some incense and play some sitar music-Ooommmhhhhh...I also found a 1/8" NPT tap today at a plumbing supply store for $7, but I'll keep in back pocket until...
Also great advice about not digging too deep- Word!. I poked a coat hanger in there and it doesn't go too far- yeeeesh! What drama!
Thanks too, Rod, for the O'Reilly's lead. I'm goin'! (BP- I initially thought you were jokin when you first mentioned, "...a left-handed drill..." -I thought it was akin to a left-handed monkey wrench). I never knew that they made left-hand drill-bits.
If we do have to use the 1/8 tap, are we trying to find the old threads or carving new ones? Is oil recommended? Is it ok for the filings to wind up inside the block? Sorry to be so anal- haven't done it before and don't want to screw it up.
It would be a lot less stressful if I could actually see what I'm operating on. Does O'Reilly's sell any kind of fiber-optic/arthroscopic kits? Don...?? Maybe a series of cleverly placed mirrors in concert with +10 reading glasses...
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Old 09-12-2014, 12:36 PM
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The ideal scenario is you get 95% of the old corroded nipple out with undersized drill bits and picks, and hopefully the block is still in good shape and the 1/8" tap would then chase (clean up) the existing threads.

Believe it or not, this was one of the first projects on my engine many years ago, and I went down the same path you did. Mine had been fiddled with in the past & was heavily corroded, so I enlarged my drain to 1/4".

BTW - pretty soon you will end up going to Lowe's and buying their ~$40 tap kit instead of buying them individually. 39-piece tap & die kit Sadly, this "new" kit does not include accompanying drill bits like the old Kobalt kit..

I also find NAPA to be a good place for taps. You will also need the link to the tap/drill bit sizing guide that Hanley put up a while back..pairing the correct diameter bit is important so the tap can cut the threads correctly.
I can't find Hanley's link but here's another one I found.. US-tap-drill-size chart

If you've never tapped/re-tapped a hole before, it is an art, the tap can break off if you aren't careful...This applies moreso to a new hole..chasing a tap in an existing hole is usually much easier, and it will just turn right in. Use a lightweight oil and once the tap starts to bite, you need to go slowly and only cut about 1/4-1/2 turn at a time. In between, you back the tap out a 1/2-3/4 turn to clear the bits & pieces out (the oil helps here)..and then slowly work it in until complete.

edit - I also have a "thread chasing kit"...this is designed to clean up existing holes or nuts that may have a burr/junk in them. I use this for existing stuff, and the tap & die kit for new stuff. Thread Chaser - The thread chasing kit has paid for itself many times over just in the time I have saved by being able to re-use an otherwise cross-threaded/burred/busted nut or bolt, instead of stopping a project in its tracks to go find replacement fasteners.
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Last edited by sastanley; 09-12-2014 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 09-12-2014, 12:53 PM
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Trying to find the old threads, but it's more by feel than automatic. Best if you can get most or all of the old stuff out first. You may end up with crossed threads, but you can reseal with Permatex goop, and it'll be fine.

No worries about chunks or filings... that's going into the water jacket, not the oil-wet areas. Always use a little lubricant when threading, but it only really matters when you're cutting. In this case, you'll be cleaning out junk first, and then cleaning up threads..

Have you removed the alternator? I wouldn't even attempt it without doing so.

I was thinking that if I had one chance to do this right, I would make myself a tool. Take a piece of 1/2 ply, and trim it to fit up against the block, clamped firmly to the accessory drive pulley. Measure the distance from the surface of the plywood to the center of the 1/8 NPT hole. Drill a 1/8" diameter (or 3/16") hole in two blocks of hardwood, at this distance from one face. Thread the two blocks onto a 8" or 10" long drill - like a shishkabob - and line the drill and blocks so that the drill is perpendicular to the place you want the hole to be. 5 minute epoxy the blocks to the plywood with clamping pressure. Check your alignment, adjust the big clamps if necessary, and then drill very gently and allow the drill tip to do all the work.

For ideas only.... you may not have the room on the side of the engine to do this, but an 8" drill would clear the accessory drive and distributor....
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Old 09-13-2014, 06:02 PM
A4B4Sea4 A4B4Sea4 is offline
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Many Thanks, Fingers crossed

Many thanks again guys!
I greatly appreciate the detailed info- just what I was hoping for. We'll give it a go tomorrow armed with proper tools, patience, and greater confidence due to your generosity.
I'll let you know how it goes.
Dave
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Old 09-29-2014, 03:45 PM
A4B4Sea4 A4B4Sea4 is offline
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Update on "Broken 1/8" drain plug"

Hi All,
We got it out, thanks to everyone's advice!
We took the Zen approach over a couple weekend visits and carefully drilled with progressively larger bits- 9/64, 5/32, 3/16, each one with a piece of tape on it marking the depth to not go beyond in order to avoid drilling into the cylinder wall. Sprayed a lot of Liquid Wrench each time and picked away at the old, corroded plug threads with a pick set purchased at Loews, and kept wiping away crud with a paper towel. We also bought a small, round file and alternately filed away until the hole became centered. Finally, we used the 11/32 bit very gently and followed with the 1/8" NPT tap dipped in oil. We slowly, carefully rotated the tap which found the block's original threads and turned quite easily, again being very careful to not tap too deep. Sprayed more Liquid Wrench, wiped out the hole with a shop paper towel wrapped around the file, and... the 6" nipple screwed in, like butter!!! Hooray!!!
Now, because we removed the alternator and the accessory drive (?) under and connected to the distributor (the water pump is bolted to the back of it), the engine won't start- we assume because the distributor needs to be reset, timed. We wound up buying Don's video on installing/timing the distributor and plan on trying again later this week.
Once we get in running again... then we do the acid flush!
I'll try to load some pics... attached.
Again, many thanks to all for your patient and sage advice!
Dave
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Old 09-29-2014, 04:37 PM
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Nice work in a tight space - that's not an easy task and you got it done!
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