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Old 04-30-2014, 07:19 PM
Val V Val V is offline
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Water coming through the carb

The block of the engine was rebuilt and a used (newer than older) head was put on and torqued by the shop. I put on the rest of the parts including manifold and the carburetor. I am starting the engine for the first time and while cranking water started coming out of air intake of the carburetor. I took the carb off and put a cup under manifold intake. Continued cranking for another 10 seconds or so and I got little less than 1/4 of a cup with water.

Do you think the manifold is gone or could there be other possibilities of a problem?

Is there a way to rule out manifold for sure?
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:36 PM
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Hi Val,

You can pressure test the manifold but that's allot of water to be coming out during cranking...so there's probably an easier test for you in this circumstance.

1. Remove all the spark plugs..look for water droplets on the plugs...remember where they came out from. There could be water on one or two or all of them depending if the manifold is broken from frost or major rust etc.
2. Remove the hose coming from T stat to Manifold at the manifold.
3. Blow into the nipple on the manifold (where you took the hose off) and listen for air in the head where you removed the spark plugs.

This sounds like a major leak so you should easily hear air in the head. I diagnosed mine like that in 2007 when I bought my boat.
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Last edited by Mo; 04-30-2014 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:40 PM
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Question

Was the water intake thru hull open during cranking?
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
Was the water intake thru hull open during cranking?
This was in my garage. So no thruhull but the hose was in a bucket of water, which I guess would be equivalent of fully open sea cock.
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Old 04-30-2014, 10:10 PM
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Thumbs up

Good point Hanley. Val, leave the water hose out of the bucket until the engine starts then stick the hose back in the water...if the engine stalls right away likely manifold shot. Do you have a T-stat in that engine right now? Need to check oil for water now as well, OK.
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Old 04-30-2014, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo View Post
Good point Hanley. Val, leave the water hose out of the bucket until the engine starts then stick the hose back in the water...if the engine stalls right away likely manifold shot. Do you have a T-stat in that engine right now? Need to check oil for water now as well, OK.
No T-stat. By pass half open. I looked quickly in the transmission and didnt see oil milky. Will run these tests tomorrow!
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Old 05-01-2014, 03:31 PM
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No good news yet. Removed water from the equation completely but still engine would not start other than few isolated pops.

Removed each plug and tested spark on each of them.
Checked oil and cylinders for water. All is clean.
Fuel is definitely going in the carb but I have no sure way of knowing its going inside the block.

So what about this theory? When water was on, it was coming through the carburetor and on the floor. One might think the mani is shot. So IF there is a hole in the manifold, could it stop the fuel from getting into the block ???

Should I get a can of starter fluid and just spray in the manifold intake?

Val
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Old 05-01-2014, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Val V View Post
No good news yet. Removed water from the equation completely but still engine would not start other than few isolated pops.

Removed each plug and tested spark on each of them.
Checked oil and cylinders for water. All is clean.
Fuel is definitely going in the carb but I have no sure way of knowing its going inside the block.

So what about this theory? When water was on, it was coming through the carburetor and on the floor. One might think the mani is shot. So IF there is a hole in the manifold, could it stop the fuel from getting into the block ???

Should I get a can of starter fluid and just spray in the manifold intake?

Val
If the manifold is shot is will have difficulty starting or may not start at all. The water would mix with the fuel and actually put the fire out...therefore no combustion. There may be drops of water on the plugs...gas doesn't leave drops. No starting fluid...don't need it...we fix what is going on there.

Check: Air, Spark, Fuel and Compression for it to run. Just do the quick blow into the manifold with the plugs out to see if there is a major leak.
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1976 C&C 30 MKI

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...Sir William Arthur Ward.
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Old 05-01-2014, 03:43 PM
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Can we get a manifold pressure test please? It's time.
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Old 05-01-2014, 03:46 PM
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This is the only place I have ever heard of "manifold pressure". I know it actually is a pressure, but every gauge I have seen, calls it vacuum.

Texts cal it vacuum. if we had a supercharger, then it would be pressure.

just curious as to why
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Old 05-01-2014, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romantic comedy View Post
This is the only place I have ever heard of "manifold pressure". I know it actually is a pressure, but every gauge I have seen, calls it vacuum.

Texts cal it vacuum. if we had a supercharger, then it would be pressure.

just curious as to why
Because we block both ends and pressurize it. I think!
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1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
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Old 05-01-2014, 04:00 PM
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Mo is correct. Close off the manifold water jacket with a Schrader valve and gauge, pressurize to [fill in preferred test pressure here] and see if it holds the pressure. This will determine if there's an internal breach of the manifold water jacket (the suspected source of the water).
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Old 05-01-2014, 04:09 PM
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Old 05-01-2014, 04:13 PM
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First couldnt find it but google helped. so its schrader to 1/8 and then i guess i would get a step up to 1/2.

Thanks will report back today.
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Old 05-01-2014, 04:25 PM
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Whatever it takes. Some guys thread it all up, others use inner tube remnants clamped in place. Remember Home Depot has a test assembly for $10 in their plumbing dept.
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Last edited by ndutton; 05-01-2014 at 04:29 PM.
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Old 05-01-2014, 08:24 PM
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pressure test set up

Here is how i did mine.

Bike tire pump w integrated pressure gauge. Schrader valve from auto parts store. Clipped off mushroom end and clamped into 1/2" hose. In photo, follow red hose. This photo was block test, but manifold same principle. (i also dipped pump assembly into water to make sure no air leaks).

Tried Home Depot gauge first, but my hose barb didnt thread cleanly (must have been a NPS vs NPT thing) so took it back.Name:  compression test.jpg
Views: 629
Size:  66.9 KB
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Old 05-01-2014, 09:40 PM
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Neil, I got the same one you show from home depot with all the adapters I needed. Closed both sides properly, no clamps, all threaded NPT with teflon tape.

The result is I think the manifold is bad. 25-30 psi pressure escapes in 1-2 seconds. It sounds like the hissing sound is heard coming from the exhaust pipe.
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Old 05-01-2014, 09:52 PM
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And there we have it, good find. At a minimum the manifold needs replacement. We'll see how it runs after that.
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Old 05-01-2014, 09:59 PM
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Thanks to everyone who helped diagnose it but I cant help wondering if this is enough to cause engine to not fire up without water at all?
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Old 05-01-2014, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Val V View Post
Thanks to everyone who helped diagnose it but I cant help wondering if this is enough to cause engine to not fire up without water at all?
Maybe but let's get the known problems resolved before chasing the as-yet unknowns.
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Old 05-05-2014, 08:11 PM
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Brand new manifold arrived today and I put it on promptly. Did not even try water but engine would not start. Again, puffs and huffs but no cigar.

Whats worse is that at some point starter just couldnt turn it anymore (after about 2-3 minutes). I checked the battery it was fine and so went to try turning it with a pipe wrench holding by the flywheel stub. It seemed as if it seized. I could turn it back a little and then forward but VERY VERY hard. My friend had to hold the block while I used all my might to turn. I was able to make full 360 turn but it took a lot of effort. Something must have expanded inside because after about 10 minutes we were able to turn it and then it became relatively easy for the starter to take over. After about another 45-60 seconds of cranking it stopped again and as before I could barely make it move. I did not try it anymore after that.

It has about 4+ quarts of oil. Removed valve plate and made sure all valves are moving. Added little oil right through the plug holes but it seems to not have made any affect.

One thing to point out it has never been started since the rebuild. I dont know of any good way of making sure oilpump is working as it should.

Thoughts?
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Old 05-05-2014, 08:53 PM
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Hard luck.

The engine, when working well, will start on the 3rd or 4th turn. Sounds like the starter may now be history. Need to find the cause of the no fire...no amount of turning it over is going to correct a non fire situation.

A few questions.
1. Was the manifold actually gone.
2. Is there fire/spark; fuel; air and compression.
3. Is the distributor in correctly and not 180 degrees off...it's happened before.
4. Are all the wires on properly.
5. Have you cleaned up the plugs and again check plugs by having plug wire on them when they are our...turn over engine and should see the tip spit spark.

Get back to us on that and lets see where we are. As for the starter...I'd be surprised if you get much more out of it. Once they do continuous turning they heat up and the armature warps...that's the beginning of the end and they short out and can't work any more...keeping it simple.

PS...drop a line and let us know where you are in your troubleshooting. Think about things that go with systems...ie fuel...valves need to be opened...think from the tank to the carb when you think fuel. Spark...think from distributor to the tip of the plug in the head. Ignition do not leave the key on when not running the engine...it can ruin points or EI ..just trying to give you some heads up along the way because it's easy to forget and or get overwhelmed when you are not used to this stuff.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.

Last edited by Mo; 05-05-2014 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 05-05-2014, 09:25 PM
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Mo,

No, I think the starter is ok (at least for now). I had difficulty turning the engine over by hand until something cooled off inside to allow it to turn "easier". Easy enough for the starter.

So to answer the questions in the same order:

1) Old manifold was replaced with brand new one but water wasnt on yet.
2) Yes there is spark on every plug.
3) Distributor is on but not ideally timed yet (I can still turn it by hand). It is however in a general direction. Piston #1 up, valves closed and distributor rotor is pointing away from the block and is on 1st wire.
4) Wires are 1,2,4,3 starting from the flywheel.
5) Plugs have been wire brushed and spark fine.


Other things to point out about wiring. Distributor is going to the coil '-'. The '+' is going to the battery. Also going to the battery '+' is the fuel pump. Aside from spark plug wires there is no other wiring. Alternator is not installed. I am using screw driver to connect 'S' with '+' on the solenoid.

Battery '+' is going to the solenoid'. Battery '-' is going to one of the bolts on the block.

Last edited by Val V; 05-05-2014 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 05-05-2014, 09:48 PM
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I think first thing you can do is get a compression test with a gauge. The thumb test isn't up to par for something like this. Also ensure the correct parts are on there.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
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Old 05-05-2014, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo View Post
I think first thing you can do is get a compression test with a gauge. The thumb test isn't up to par for something like this. Also ensure the correct parts are on there.
Thanks Mo, I will try that tomorrow. Which parts you referring to check they are correct?
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Old 05-06-2014, 04:49 AM
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Confirm compression...then.
-double check that distributor is in correctly...we have had situations of no start and backfiring coughing etc related to dist being of 180 degrees.
-double check correct rotor button and cap for the distributor.
-double check that you have fuel.

where your wires are 1243 looking in over the engine keep in mind looking at distributor..1..9 O'clock; 2..12 O'clock; 3..3 O'clock; 4..6 O'clock...as you look in over the engine. Just check it all.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.

Last edited by Mo; 05-06-2014 at 04:58 AM.
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