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  #1   IP: 71.232.145.132
Old 01-20-2010, 07:19 AM
ArtJ ArtJ is offline
 
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Transmission neutral redesign?

Is it possible to modify the design implementation of neutral to allow for
running in neutral for extended periods of time without wearing something
out in the transmission?

This is useful for those who wish to operate accessories such as refrigerators.
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:17 AM
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Why is running in neutral bad?

What parts get worn when running in neutral?

I commonly idle the engine in neutral for 10 minutes to charge the battery.

Is this a bad practice? I suppose I could shift to forward if that is a better practice.

Advice?
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:35 AM
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According to Don, lengthy running in neutral can cause transmission wear.
I do not know the exact details. I don't think 10 minutes is a issue though
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:29 PM
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As I under stand it the main shaft is turning when the motor is running but the tranny is just sitting their ,guess it might wear on the clutch plate but doubt it..
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:37 PM
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Perhaps Don Moyer could shed some light on the wear mechanism?
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Old 01-20-2010, 03:07 PM
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Art,

The two sets of small pinion gears which provide reverse when the large brake band tightens around the gear cage assembly are what wear when operating the engine in neutral - and of course - in reverse. If you examine these gears you can sort of get the idea that they were not intended for continuous duty.

True (unlike when operating in reverse), there is really no load on the gears in neutral but there is non-the-less some wear on the gears and shafts on which they're mounted when spinning them for hours at a time.

I view operating in neutral like any other bad habit; a little now and then isn't going to have much of a negative impact, but operating several hours every weekend to charge your batteries will definitely result in some wear and will no doubt increase the typical whining sound you hear in reverse.

Don
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Old 01-20-2010, 03:25 PM
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Thanks for the clarification Don

I don't know what the requirements of a small freezer drawing 2 or 3amps would be, but (hopefully) it wouldn't require more than a hour a day in neutral charging.
Since I don't anticipate using it except for a couple weeks (14 days) of cruising per
year, hopefully the wear would not be excessive?
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Old 01-22-2010, 08:03 AM
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Don A question please

Currently I have a 60 amp alternator. Does upgrading to a 100 Amp
alternator sufficiently and practically decrease the charge time, and resulting engine run time inneutral? Or is 60 amps probably all the deep cycle batteries can absorb?
Thanks

Art
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Old 01-22-2010, 11:57 AM
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Art,

There are several extremely capable Forum contributors who will hopefully step in to give you a more complete answer than I'm able to provide. In the meantime, the short answer is that the amp rating of an alternator does not in of itself determine charging rate.

Regulators will control the alternator output to meet the demands of the DC system, most notably of course, the condition of the batteries. This means that the output of a 55 amp alternator and a 120 amp alternator will be essentially the same in most normal circumstances. The higher output of larger alternators will only kick in if high draw electrical equipment is used (air conditioning, radar, anchor chain windless, etc).

Don
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Old 01-22-2010, 12:22 PM
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Thanks Don

You have confirmed what I suspected. The 60 amp is fine for my use
with a small refrigerator.
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Old 01-22-2010, 01:22 PM
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oops

I am simply glad I read this post. I will now change my habits.

I Think the best solution to long battery charging and running a fridge is a separate genset. The Honda 1000 eu is on my wish list. it will cure a plethora of shortcomings about my boat for around $800. I have used these little gems and they are everything they advertise. Hey it's a Honda!

r.
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Old 01-22-2010, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lat 64 View Post
I am simply glad I read this post. I will now change my habits.

I Think the best solution to long battery charging and running a fridge is a separate genset. The Honda 1000 eu is on my wish list. it will cure a plethora of shortcomings about my boat for around $800. I have used these little gems and they are everything they advertise. Hey it's a Honda!

r.
Does anyone make a DC generator. I, myself, would prefer DC since the refrig and
TV's I have are DC and only used a couple weeks per year. Also, using
AC may cause issues with thru hull galvanic action being accelerated.

What experiences have people who use refrigerators /freezers with
the atomic 4 had?
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Old 01-24-2010, 04:13 AM
pearson coyote pearson coyote is offline
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Wink transmission neutral redesign

When I am not plugged in at the marina we will use one of the small Honda generators. It works great and will run for seems like days on a tank of fuel. When it's not being used it tucks neatly down below adjacent to the engine and securely held in place while sails are up. Before I moved the generator to the boat I used to run the boat about an hour a week (mostly in neutral) when I could find neutral that is.
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  #14   IP: 71.232.145.132
Old 01-24-2010, 07:12 AM
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Does this Honda generator supply DC?
Otherwise would need to power a battery charger as well.
(I have no use for AC other than charging battery)

Thanks

Art
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Old 01-24-2010, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pearson coyote View Post
When I am not plugged in at the marina we will use one of the small Honda generators. It works great and will run for seems like days on a tank of fuel. When it's not being used it tucks neatly down below adjacent to the engine and securely held in place while sails are up. Before I moved the generator to the boat I used to run the boat about an hour a week (mostly in neutral) when I could find neutral that is.
Isn't it good to run the engine a hour a week or so just to keep it operating
properly and dispell moisture?

With regard to refrigerators, when on a cruise and no shore power ( mooring)
does anyone have experience with how often to run a small refrig/freezer
and how often the batteries need to be recharged. Can small freezer run
4 or 5 hours on battery alone? then recharge batteries?.
What cycle time is to be expected?

Thanks
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Old 01-24-2010, 09:19 AM
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Refrigeration

Quote:
With regard to refrigerators, when on a cruise and no shore power ( mooring) does anyone have experience with how often to run a small refrig/freezer and how often the batteries need to be recharged. Can small freezer run 4 or 5 hours on battery alone? then recharge batteries?. What cycle time is to be expected?
Art,
Cycle time is dependent on a variety of factors, i.e., insulation quality, door/lid design, how often it's opened, how full it is, location in the boat, etc.

On board Kalina I converted the standard top loading ice box to a refrigerator by installing a Nova-cool refrigeration system. I added 3" of insulation to the opening lid and plugged the bottom drain to keep the cold air from running to the bilge. At the slip, sunlight exposure is on the same side as the frige. With that setup, its cycle is a 4 minute run with a 4 minute interval or 50% of the time. The system draws 5 amps so it adds up to 60 amp-hours daily. This figure decreases in the winter.

On a cruise, I need to produce 60 A-H daily just to keep up with the frige, more for lighting, stereo, blender, etc. I don't have solar yet but it's on the list. I did install a 100 amp alternator but was criticized heavily for doing so on another forum. Their feeling was the output was determined by the battery state rather than the alternator capacity (I agree totally). My position was, what if the battery bank wants more than 35A? My strategy was to reduce recharge time if possible.

Battery storage capacity is a factor too. You want enough capacity to last at least a full day to be able to choose when you recharge (run the engine or generator and annoy everyone within earshot in a quiet anchorage). An old rule of thumb is to add a battery with the addition of refrigeration.

I currently have 5 batteries on board: 4 - group 27 lead-acid batteries paired up in 2 banks for the house and 1 - group 24 isolated as an engine starter. With that, I can survive 24 hours on a single bank (G27 pair) without any regard for power conservation or recharging. In theory, I could recharge once every other day. In practice, I recharge daily, always like to have a reserve.

Finally, I don't know if this applies to our engines but I took a diesel course many years ago and the instructor felt there was nothing worse for a diesel than to run it in neutral at the dock. He said the engine takes too long to reach operating temp if at all and accordingly the nasties in the crankcase oil aren't sufficiently evaporated out causing premature wear. His mantra was if you need to run your engine, take your boat out, put some load on it. Based on what I've read on this thread, this would apply at least to our trannys.
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Last edited by ndutton; 01-24-2010 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 01-24-2010, 01:35 PM
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Thanks for the great info Neil. Wow! so many batteries.

I have 2 marine/ rv large deep cycle batteries "Die Hards" from Sears.
Not sure how long one of these could survive running at 50 percent
cycling. based on earlier info I am looking into one of the recommended
Honda 1000 Watt generators. Looks like it is capable of supplying around
8 amps DC as well as AC at some other rate.

I would plan to run the freezer off the engine while traveling during the
day, and apparently, need to run a generator nearly continuously
to keep batteries up in port. Maybe I would use the freezer to keep
things frozen at the begining of the cruise, then later let things defrost
and use it in refrigerator mode. Definately seems as though it requires
a real plan. ( and I thought going thru lots of ice was bad!!)

I choose to buy the Dometic model 25 small capacity freezer, cooler
hoping that it would solve my problems. The ice box on the Tartan 34c \
is massive and seemed very difficult to insulate and expensive .

I bought a 6 day cooler from walmart as well as a thermoelectric refrigerator
the refrig was only around 150 bucks. The Demetic was around 450 from
Defender. Now i am adding another 800 bucks or more for a generator.
"Lots of cash to do away with ice".

Thanks again guys much appreciated
Art
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Old 01-24-2010, 02:30 PM
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Art,

One inefficiency with a door type fridge is when you open the door, all the cold air spills out. A top loader doesn't do this. You might also look into dropping that $800 on solar, works when you're not there.
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1977 Catalina 30
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Had my hands in a few others
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Old 01-24-2010, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Art,

One inefficiency with a door type fridge is when you open the door, all the cold air spills out. A top loader doesn't do this. You might also look into dropping that $800 on solar, works when you're not there.
Thanks again Neil

It certainly seems as though it is a process, and there is no
quick fix to the energy issue. By the way, I have purchased top loading
units. How much charging capability does solar offer?

Regards

Art
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Old 01-24-2010, 04:53 PM
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Art,

Started new thread in off-topic.
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1977 Catalina 30
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prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
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Old 01-24-2010, 05:59 PM
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Neil I don't see your thread. What is it's name please

thanks
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