my friend's "new" atomic 4 cause small explosion

[Atominoob]

A few months ago I saw a 1962 columbia 29 sailboat posted for sale. $5000. I really liked it from the pics, but never went and saw it. I live in an anchorage, and routinely get deals on great little old boats in need of some TLC in the 1-3 thousand range.

A month or so ago, a friend told me they were buying a boat from one of their friends, and it turned out to be this one! Apparently she had been sailing with the previous owner on it for years and he was going away for a PHD program. I knew she had crewed to the bahamas and been sailing with friends for years and was passionate , and a very intelligent young lady so I was excited to hear she got a boat.


She says they never had any problems really in their journeys and was enchanted with the boat. I figured at 5k, at this age, it was going to be a really really nice boat! But when I pulled up to it, my heart sank. All by herself in the shadow of key biscayne for young kids to raid on their drunken escapades, overgrown with barnacles and missing such critical pieces as rubrails, toe rails, etc... and what was there was improperly made, what appeared to be florist foam coated in topcoat to form the cockpit structure. Aluminum ports, ragged running rigging, a depressed mast stepping, and cob jobbed hatches made out of particle board and doorskin. The sails were beyond blown out, ragged and torn. Literally the worst sails i have ever seen on any boat. They did not even fit and were clearly the wrong size. The entire rig was jerry rigged to the max, involving multiple modified cams just to get the topping lift to work, and a pull pin to get it... i can't go on... the boat was a mess. Inside i won't even begin to speak of. I learned that this previous owner had spent the last few years "restoring" and then somehow sailing this boat around south florida and the keys. Now he had passed on this great project and frankly horrible burden onto an unsuspecting and new to boats 26 year old young woman who was apparently his friend. She assures me that he truly believed his boat was worth the money....im still not convinced.


Surprisingly the engine turned on, and sounded pretty quiet other than the horrendous screech of a belt. "The alternator belt still needs to be changed" he said. Apparently they had just changed the plugs, oil, and other such things, and that was the one thing they had not yet gotten to...oh...and there's no blower installed !!! Funny I just read a story of a boat exploding for just this reason not too long ago!

The engine was squeeling away in a way that if i didn't know it was just an alternator i would not be running the engine. It was also smoking... but "it always does that" One thing i noticed on that god given 4 mile downwind run to the new anchorage is that the A4 was not providing what i would expect 30 HP of inboard to do. Ive moved similar boats faster with 5 HP outboards. I would say it was not even getting us to hull speed even with all the growth i would think it should. well end of story is we made it there and ended the day without incident. Before leaving that day i investigated the prop underwater with snorkel and it was heavily encrusted for sure.

supposedly they went out together (the new and old owner) one more time before he moved away and that was also without incident.

But one week later, a couple girlfriends of hers and myself went out, and initially had trouble getting the engine started. When we finally did, it was making strange noises. It was also smoking a lot more than last time. New owner reassures me that the old guy had just added something to the fuel that was supposed to burn off. We get out in the channel, barely moving the boat against a bit of current and 15 kn of wind. We decide we are out far enough and to fall off now that our main is up, and unexpectedly drift a ridiculous amount backwards, the boat is losing headway. We decide to return to the channel, but its too late, just a few feet outside the channel we hit an old wreck, or some underwater ridge that despite living in the area for a while now on the water i apparently didn't know about. Ok my mistake, but we aren't grounded badly. We put the A4 in reverse and are able to get off, but we have to rev it like crazy to do so with all the current and wind. The engine doesnt sound good. Its making all kinds of crazy noises now, and the owner wants to kill it and try to sail off. Impossible I tell her with the boat so barnacled and no functional sails. So we keep the motor running, but it seems to have lost its punch. Its making pretty shitty noises and they are getting worse. Its only about a minute before the engine is barely giving us anything and we start blowing back into the anchorage. I believe at this point the A4 stalled, or it might have stalled while we were aground...anyway we got it running again, but barely, and it stalled again. We threw out anchor 40 feet off my friend's boat to avoid hitting him drifting in.

We waited a few minutes, then decided to try and start the engine again. After a dozen or so tries, the starter engine was cranking but nothing was happening, finally it fired up. It ran for a few seconds made horrible noises as we revved it, and then there was a boat shaking bang as loud as a canon going off, and the entire cabin filled with thick billowing smoke. We quickly killed all engine related things, including the battery switch just in case, and the engine continued to smoke for about 10-15 minutes afterwards. Needless to say, we did not start the engine again that day. I actually used my diving skills to pull the anchor and reset it about two dozen times until we had narrowly navigated a mooring field and drifted right back to our mooring a half hour later.

So the new owner and I took the compartment covers off finally yesterday. Investigation revealed to us only one thing. A snapped alternator belt. Strangely, the belt looked rather new, had no cracks or missing chunks...reads Napa autoparts on it so I'm guessing not original to the a4???LOL The new owner optimistically believes that this is the whole problem right here, but I'm telling her a failed alternator/belt is not enough to make an engine backfire/explode flames back into the boat. I am thinking that either the belt was not sized appropriately to begin with which is not unlikely considering it is clearly not a genuine part. But more than that, if it was loose, and in otherwise good condition , why would it snap? I have read things about frozen pulleys... which could signal greater problems in the engine that may relate to the explosion.

So i guess my main question is what to do as far as diagnosis, was what we experienced a backfire?
Ive thought of the following possible problems

Dirty propeller,
bad piston rings/blowby
leaking oil
gummed up carb as always
under tensioned alternator belt
frozen pulleys leading to alternator belt snapping

any comments welcomed, please help us keep this new captain's adventure alive!

[roadnsky]

Uh wow. Where to begin?...

My first suggestion is to get the MMI Manual immediately. Post haste.

• Do you know if this is a late model or early model?
• What size is the Alternator? Is there a tag or label you can read?
• Do you know how to do a basic timing and if so are you certain that it's timed?
• Does it have basic points/condenser or EI?

Please be aware that if the engine won't start after a few short attempts you need to close the raw water intake until it starts.

[alcodiesel]

I know, where to start, Right? Welcome to the forum!

Firstly I am so very glad about the boat I bought a few months ago for $1300 more that really was "ready to sail" and was lovingly maintained.
Second- great handle- Atominoob.
Third- Is it too late for your friend to get the guy to take it back?

[JOHN COOKSON]

Originally Posted by Atominoob

and was passionate , and a very intelligent young lady so I was excited to hear she got a boat.


Sovergrown with barnacles and missing such critical pieces as rubrails, toe rails, etc... and what was there was improperly made, what appeared to be florist foam coated in topcoat to form the cockpit structure. Aluminum ports, ragged running rigging, a depressed mast stepping, and cob jobbed hatches made out of particle board and doorskin. The sails were beyond blown out, ragged and torn. Literally the worst sails i have ever seen on any boat. They did not even fit and were clearly the wrong size. The entire rig was jerry rigged to the max, involving multiple modified cams just to get the topping lift to work, and a pull pin to get it... i can't go on... the boat was a mess. Inside i won't even begin to speak of. I learned that this previous owner had spent the last few years "restoring" and then somehow sailing this boat around south florida and the keys. Now he had passed on this great project and frankly horrible burden onto an unsuspecting and new to boats 26 year old young woman who was apparently his friend.

Surprisingly the engine turned on, and sounded pretty quiet other than the horrendous screech of a belt. "The alternator belt still needs to be changed" he said.

The engine was squeeling away in a way that if i didn't know it was just an alternator i would not be running the engine. It was also smoking... but "it always does that"o

But one week later, a couple girlfriends of hers and myself went out, and initially had trouble getting the engine started. When we finally did, it was making strange noises. Isound good. Its making all kinds of crazy noises now, and the owner wants to kill it and try to sail off. Impossible I tell her with the boat so barnacled and no functional sails. So we keep the motor running, but it seems to have lost its punch. Its making pretty shitty noises and they are getting worse. Its only about a minute before the engine is barely g
We waited a few minutes, then decided to try and start the engine again. After a dozen or so tries, the starter engine was cranking but nothing was happening, finally it fired up. It ran for a few seconds made horrible noises as we revved it, and then there was a boat shaking bang as loud as a canon going off, and the entire cabin filled with thick billowing smoke. We quickly killed all engine related things, including the battery switch just in case, a
So the new owner and I took the compartment covers off finally yesterday. Investigation revealed to us only one thing. A snapped alternator belt. Strangely, the belt looked rather new, had no cracks or missing chunks...reads Napa autoparts on it so I'm guessing not original to the a4???LOL The new owner optimistically believes that this is the whole problem right here, but I'm telling her a failed alternator/belt is not enough to make an engine backfire/explode flames back into the boat.
alive!

First off if the PO repaired and "maintained" the engine like he did the rest of the boat who knows what you have.
The new owner I'm sure is very intelligent. Unfortunately she knows very little about sail boats or engines. I hope the new owner has the time, money and temperament to restore this boat and engine if she choses to keep it. Be careful. A boat is a hole in the water into which one throws money. (underlined)
Strange noises, horrible noises, shitty noises. Can you be a little more specific? (bold)

TRUE GRIT

[Atominoob]

Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON

First off if the PO repaired and "maintained" the engine like he did the rest of the boat who knows what you have.
The new owner I'm sure is very intelligent. Unfortunately she knows very little about sail boats or engines. I hope the new owner has the time, money and temperament to restore this boat and engine if she choses to keep it. Be careful. A boat is a hole in the water into which one throws money. (underlined)
Strange noises, horrible noises, shitty noises. Can you be a little more specific? (bold)

TRUE GRIT

irregular metal on metal, ricketing, sounded internal but what do i know

[JOHN COOKSON]

The first thing I would do is check the timing.
What's the oil pressure? Has anyone pulled the dip stick?
TRUE GRIT

[ndutton]

With the big bang event I suggest the basics need checking as a starting place and in this order: compression, spark, fuel. That should point you in a direction.

[joe_db]

Cut the boat up, sell the lead for scrap, and get a working boat. This boat sounds like it needs about $10,000 invested to make it worth $3,000 on a good day

[Atominoob]

Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON

The first thing I would do is check the timing.
What's the oil pressure? Has anyone pulled the dip stick?
TRUE GRIT

not sure how to check pressure, but dip stick is at first line, about a quarter inch from the line near the word Full

[Atominoob]

Originally Posted by roadnsky

Uh wow. Where to begin?... :roll eyes:

My first suggestion is to get the MMI Manual immediately. Post haste.

• Do you know if this is a late model or early model?
• What size is the Alternator? Is there a tag or label you can read?
• Do you know how to do a basic timing and if so are you certain that it's timed?
• Does it have basic points/condenser or EI?

Please be aware that if the engine won't start after a few short attempts you need to close the raw water intake until it starts.

seems to be the original 1962 model
will have to check the alternator
no i don't but I'm pretty handy and good at learning, not sure if its timed
seems to have one spark plug in each cylinder, not sure about points. plugs are new

[capnward]

Hey Atominoob, great handle, welcome. Sorry to hear about your friend's new boat project. Don't despair, it gets better.
Like they all say, There is no such thing as a cheap boat. You either pay for it up front, or pay for it later. Or you just have a wreck to be abandoned, or sold to the next unfortunate owner. The marinas and anchorages are full of great boat deals that the owner couldn't deal with after purchase. However, sometimes people with time, energy or money do learn how to deal with their boat, and painstakingly bring it back from the dead. Hopefully your friend is one of those. Getting a Moyer manual is a good first step. This forum is also a big help. It sounds like the old owner should have paid your friend to take that derelict off his hands.
Sounds to me like the engine overheated. Or the engine ran out of oil. Could be a lot of things. After a dozen tries to start, you probably had a gas puddle in the air intake leaking from the carb, and with no blower in an enclosed space, it exploded. Glad you survived.
Some general advice: if the sails are weak, the bottom and the prop are fouled, there is no blower, and the engine is powerless and making strange noises, don't take the boat out on a trip. Fix it first. If something can go wrong, it will. A series of smaller problems put together can create disaster. Take care of your A-4 and it will take care of you.

[roadnsky]

Originally Posted by Atominoob

seems to be the original 1962 model
will have to check the alternator
no i don't but I'm pretty handy and good at learning, not sure if its timed
seems to have one spark plug in each cylinder, not sure about points. plugs are new

Timing is one of the key basics to an A4 running well. A symptom of poor timing is backfiring.
There are many good posts and documents on this site explaining how to do it.
Our host even has an excellent video with step by step direction.
12 bucks, worth every penny.
http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/s...ey=CLIP_01_552

I don't mean to sound insulting here...
Do you understand the difference between points and EI?
Don's video will explain this as well.

I will repeat my admonition to get the MMI Manual as a good start.

[Atominoob]

Originally Posted by roadnsky

Timing is one of the key basics to an A4 running well. A symptom of poor timing is backfiring.
There are many good posts and documents on this site explaining how to do it.
Our host even has an excellent video with step by step direction.
12 bucks, worth every penny.
http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/s...ey=CLIP_01_552

I don't mean to sound insulting here...
Do you understand the difference between points and EI?
Don's video will explain this as well.

I will repeat my admonition to get the MMI Manual as a good start.

Spark plug vs electronic ignition?

[roadnsky]

Originally Posted by Atominoob

Spark plug vs electronic ignition?

Points... as in "points & condenser" in the distributer vs EI.

[JOHN COOKSON]

Originally Posted by Atominoob

Spark plug vs electronic ignition?

No, Jerry was asking about POINTS (not spark plugs) vs ELECTRONIC IGNITION. Google "points based ignition" and you will learn how an ignition system works. The electronic ignition is an upgrade that takes the place of points with an electronic module.

TRUE GRIT

Quizz question: What is the function of the points in a gasoline engine ignition system?

[joe_db]

If the alternator belt comes off, the only result you will notice is less voltage. There is no smoke, fire, banging, fumes, or exploding going on. If you somehow have the alternator seize up and melt the belt, you might get some nasty smelling melting rubber smoke, but still no explosions.
It seems like this boat has MANY severe issues, but I would totally clean up the engine room and check every inch of the fuel and electrical systems. BTW - did the engine do something like put a rod through the block?

[sastanley]

joe, by the description, I thought about it throwing a rod too..

[JOHN COOKSON]

Originally Posted by joe_db

If the alternator belt comes off, the only result you will notice is less voltage. There is no smoke, fire, banging, fumes, or exploding going on. If you somehow have the alternator seize up and melt the belt, you might get some nasty smelling melting rubber smoke, but still no explosions.
?

Agree with Joe.
The best I could come up with was something was\is terribly wrong at the other end of the belt ie the accessory drive. Don't want to bet any money on this idea..........

TRUE GRIT

[Atominoob]

Originally Posted by joe_db

If the alternator belt comes off, the only result you will notice is less voltage. There is no smoke, fire, banging, fumes, or exploding going on. If you somehow have the alternator seize up and melt the belt, you might get some nasty smelling melting rubber smoke, but still no explosions.
It seems like this boat has MANY severe issues, but I would totally clean up the engine room and check every inch of the fuel and electrical systems. BTW - did the engine do something like put a rod through the block?

we would be able to see that right? i can't see anything sticking out

[joe_db]

Does the engine turn freely?
Photos would be a help.