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  #26   IP: 73.55.66.163
Old 04-19-2015, 09:38 PM
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It is all about what works and reliability. You have got that down.
My engine has the original coil, as far as I can tell. It gets pretty hot. I have often wondered how hot, and what the current is. I just never got around to measuring it. It keeps going. I have 3 spare coils aboard, just in case.

I have thought of going with the electronic ignition, but dont see the need. My access is great. The engine is in the middle of the cabin. I ran the ICW from Annapolis to Florida. Great trip.

I keep threatening to do it again. Maybe come see you Hanley.
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Old 04-19-2015, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by romantic comedy View Post
It is all about what works and reliability. You have got that down.
My engine has the original coil, as far as I can tell. It gets pretty hot. I have often wondered how hot, and what the current is. I just never got around to measuring it. It keeps going. I have 3 spare coils aboard, just in case.

I have thought of going with the electronic ignition, but dont see the need. My access is great. The engine is in the middle of the cabin. I ran the ICW from Annapolis to Florida. Great trip.

I keep threatening to do it again. Maybe come see you Hanley.
I am going to add an ammeter for coil+ ---just to put this argument to rest.

Last edited by hanleyclifford; 07-13-2016 at 08:27 PM.
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  #28   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 04-19-2015, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romantic comedy View Post
It is all about what works and reliability. You have got that down.
My engine has the original coil, as far as I can tell. It gets pretty hot. I have often wondered how hot, and what the current is. I just never got around to measuring it. It keeps going. I have 3 spare coils aboard, just in case.

I have thought of going with the electronic ignition, but dont see the need. My access is great. The engine is in the middle of the cabin. I ran the ICW from Annapolis to Florida. Great trip.

I keep threatening to do it again. Maybe come see you Hanley.
See your PM box.
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  #29   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 04-19-2015, 10:44 PM
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Okay, another round.
  • The 4 amp number comes from the manufacturer of our typical electronic ignition, Pertronix and is a maximum. Nobody suggested we need 4 amps to function but rather that the manufacturer specifies their product should not be subjected to greater than 4 amps. This has been clearly stated time and time again, as recently as post #16 in this thread only a few hours ago. Why is it still in question?
  • About your question of how many amps to get a coil to produce spark, we can get a coil to produce spark with a fraction of an amp but it will take longer for the coil to reach saturation, a minimum amount of voltage being present. The amperage factor affects the time it takes for the coil to reach saturation, not if it will. The question was a misdirection because it has nothing to do with Phil's shutdown problem, the subject of this thread.
  • Why the continued avoidance, resistance if you will (pun intended), of the extensive studies performed here with a proven track record? It matters not who did it but that it was done, resolved, solution reached and applied successfully. I cannot understand the motivation.
  • Still avoiding my 9 volt example?
  • Again, sorry Phil and others but it's painfully obvious I've had it up to here with this constant obfuscation of a resolved issue. Time for a sabbatical.
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Last edited by ndutton; 04-19-2015 at 11:00 PM.
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Old 04-19-2015, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
t I 1.5Ω e (there are 3/4Ωest of luck.
I for one greatly enjoyed reading that very long thread on coils. From it I learned several things.
If you use EI amperage is a coil eater, normally because our alternately are so much better than they used to be.
To solve the "problem" the simplest way is to buy the correct coil.for the EI system you using. If you have an EI from MM it will work nicely and reliable with the coil sold by MM for the EI.
If you choose not to run the prescribed coil then it is wise to stay With points. Which is what I have thus far done because other necessary parts depleted the banal a tad for now.
I also learned, from reading that thread that their is room for those who want to tinker to make a square peg fit into.a.round hole. Some do it so well and with such grace that it makes less qualified wannabes, like me, "think" it's worth trying. Sometimes it's is. Sometimes that trying to save $50 ends up costing much much more in time and $ and then I end up going back,sometimes, and following the recommended advice that I should have from.the start.

Just one question.
How do you make you make the ohms sign? Do you use a Greek letter ?

Btw
Thanks to You Guys who have been sorting all of this.out and sharing it with us who are trying to.
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  #31   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 04-19-2015, 11:17 PM
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[Off topic]
Quote:
Just one question.
How do you make you make the ohms sign? Do you use a Greek letter ?
For those with a PC, hold down the 'Alt" key while you type 234 on the numeric keypad. There's a whole world of Alt codes: arrows, Greek letters, algebraic signs, degrees symbol, all kinds if stuff. My sincere thanks to Shawn Stanley for enlightening me.

edit: Mr. Bing, might want to work on how you quoted me
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Last edited by ndutton; 04-19-2015 at 11:35 PM.
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  #32   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 04-19-2015, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romantic comedy View Post
It is all about what works and reliability. You have got that down.
My engine has the original coil, as far as I can tell. It gets pretty hot. I have often wondered how hot, and what the current is. I just never got around to measuring it. It keeps going. I have 3 spare coils aboard, just in case.

I have thought of going with the electronic ignition, but dont see the need. My access is great. The engine is in the middle of the cabin. I ran the ICW from Annapolis to Florida. Great trip.

I keep threatening to do it again. Maybe come see you Hanley.
Actually the main reason to go EI with an A4 is to escape the problem of distributor lobe wear which requires ever decreasing gap to achieve specified dwell. The main reason for all this discussion of coils is the increased dwell of the EI which puts the screws to coils that might be functioning fine with points.
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Old 04-20-2015, 08:20 AM
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My $0.02:
I had EI before the coil issue was known and went through quite a supply of them. Once they go bad ONCE, they are doomed. It might be days or weeks later, but they will fail again and eventually they fail for good.
I know Indigo now sells a ballast resistor, Moyer Marine has the correct resistance coil for Pertronix, and I think Pertronix quit suggesting the wrong coil. This forum gets credit for the first two and maybe the third as well

* the old hand at the local Western Auto here knows which of his coils works for an A4 with no ballast. You don't see THAT every day

Last edited by joe_db; 04-20-2015 at 08:22 AM.
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  #34   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 04-20-2015, 08:48 AM
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As with so many electrical components heat is the enemy of the ignition coil. This is one reason why coils should be mounted on bulkheads rather than the engine block. If your coil is too hot to touch, it is probably working too hard and action is indicated.
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  #35   IP: 71.59.69.172
Old 04-20-2015, 09:11 AM
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Neil.
There is much more than just how I quote you that I should work on.
Regardless on my thumbprint skills, or lack there of, I deeply appreciate the wealth of experiance, knowledge and hard earned wisdom shared here.
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  #36   IP: 69.254.112.254
Old 04-20-2015, 11:29 PM
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What is the best way to check the distributor for lobe wear?
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  #37   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 04-21-2015, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romantic comedy View Post
What is the best way to check the distributor for lobe wear?
Just put a dwell meter on coil -. Adjust the points until you get the dwell spec for your distributor. Then use a feeler gauge set to determine the gap. If the gap is below .012" consider EI and all the drill that comes with it. I've had engines running on much smaller gaps but the points get chewed up faster.
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  #38   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 05-03-2015, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Okay, another round.
  • The 4 amp number comes from the manufacturer of our typical electronic ignition, Pertronix and is a maximum. Nobody suggested we need 4 amps to function but rather that the manufacturer specifies their product should not be subjected to greater than 4 amps. This has been clearly stated time and time again, as recently as post #16 in this thread only a few hours ago. Why is it still in question?
  • About your question of how many amps to get a coil to produce spark, we can get a coil to produce spark with a fraction of an amp but it will take longer for the coil to reach saturation, a minimum amount of voltage being present. The amperage factor affects the time it takes for the coil to reach saturation, not if it will. The question was a misdirection because it has nothing to do with Phil's shutdown problem, the subject of this thread.
  • Why the continued avoidance, resistance if you will (pun intended), of the extensive studies performed here with a proven track record? It matters not who did it but that it was done, resolved, solution reached and applied successfully. I cannot understand the motivation.
  • Still avoiding my 9 volt example?
  • Again, sorry Phil and others but it's painfully obvious I've had it up to here with this constant obfuscation of a resolved issue. Time for a sabbatical.
This might answer a few questions - or raise a few.

Last edited by hanleyclifford; 07-13-2016 at 08:27 PM.
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  #39   IP: 71.178.81.29
Old 05-06-2015, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
[Off topic]
For those with a PC, hold down the 'Alt" key while you type 234 on the numeric keypad. There's a whole world of Alt codes: arrows, Greek letters, algebraic signs, degrees symbol, all kinds if stuff. My sincere thanks to Shawn Stanley for enlightening me.

edit: Mr. Bing, might want to work on how you quoted me
Hi everyone..I am not dead, just busy.

Everything else is being hashed out, but I can provide this to help close the loop on the Alt codes Neil mentioned a few posts back, even though I am a couple weeks late. My whole life is a couple weeks late these days.

http://www.alt-codes.net/
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Last edited by sastanley; 05-06-2015 at 11:05 PM.
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  #40   IP: 70.27.63.64
Old 05-08-2015, 03:36 PM
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Oh...excuse me, I was looking for an "oil" thread.

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  #41   IP: 72.224.197.223
Old 05-08-2015, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by 67c&ccorv View Post
oh...excuse me, i was looking for an "oil" thread.

lmfao
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  #42   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 05-08-2015, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by 67c&ccorv View Post
Oh...excuse me, I was looking for an "oil" thread.

Run a few more volts into your c"oil" and lean over it with your necktie.
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Old 05-09-2015, 03:15 PM
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Yet another thread on electronic ignition/coil problems. Everyone I know who has gone this route has had problems.
After reading thru all this I have to ask, Why would anyone want to put themselves thru this BS when the original AC Delco system works just fine.
I've owned my 73 A4 since 1986 and have only replaced the coil once. $40 worth of tune up parts every couple of years and this marvelous old machine keeps running like a top!
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Old 05-09-2015, 07:14 PM
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De`ja vu all over again

jsmickey, your post is nearly word for word identical to my first post on this forum several years ago. The problems of electronic ignition on the A-4 have since been determined and resolved. Anyone still having problems is either not aware of the proper and complete system installation or is and decides to go their own way. A third possibility is they might not have followed the prescribed installation to the letter. We shouldn't blame electronic ignition for the choices of the latter two.

Thus far there have been no reported EI failures for those who followed the protocol precisely. None, zero. It's been 3 or 4 years since the resolution was reached. Do it right and there's no problem.

In addition, MMI now offers a coil specifically manufactured to the requirements of electronic ignition on the A-4. You'll not find a coil off the shelf at the corner auto parts store that meets MMI's specification.

But you're right. Points type ignition works fine as long as it stays in adjustment and the cam lobes aren't worn and the condenser isn't faulty.
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Last edited by ndutton; 08-04-2015 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 05-09-2015, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
jsmickey, your post is nearly word for word identical to my first post on this forum several years ago. The problems of electronic ignition on the A-4 have since been determined and resolved. Anyone still having problems is either not aware of the proper and complete system installation or is and decides to go their own way. A third possibility is they might not have followed the prescribed installation to the letter. We shouldn't blame electronic ignition for the choices of the latter two.

Thus far there have been no reported EI failures for those who followed the protocol precisely. None, zero. It's been 3 or 4 years since the resolution was reached. Do it right and there's no problem.

In addition, MMI now offers a coil specifically manufactured to the requirements of electronic ignition on the A-4. You'll not find a coil off the shelf at the corner auto parts store that meets MMI's specification.

But you're right. Points type ignition works fine as long as it stays in adjustment and the cam lobes aren't worn and the condenser isn't faulty.
But the points don't stay in adjustment; and the lobes continue to wear and cannot be replaced (yet); and condensers continue to be faulty (sometimes right out of the box). EI is rapidly approaching a requirement (for all but the most stubborn, of which I was one until quite recently). Add to that the ever increasing requirements and complexities of electrical systems on cruising boats, and we can see the increasing importance of total electrical system planning and monitoring.
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Old 05-10-2015, 10:43 AM
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In conclusion ...

Last weekend I installed a brand new MMI coil, and a 1.5 Ω ballast resistor on the coil + side. I took voltage and resistance data, but do not have it in front of me right now. It reduced the voltage to the coil to somewhere between 11.5 and 12.0 V. The engine started up and ran fine, so I motored out to our favorite anchorage with a thermocouple attached to the coil. The coil temperature never got above 145 F, which was great.

Unfortunately, the engine did a hard shutdown again after 90 minutes, like before, and would not restart. I checked for spark, and it had plenty. I checked for fuel flow going to the carb, and there was NONE. I am going to conclude the ignition system is now fine, and my problem is now fuel related. And for that, I am going to start a new thread, and ask for advice on the fuel issue. Thanks for all your help on this one.

Phil
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Old 05-10-2015, 11:14 PM
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Mechanical or electric fuel pump?

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Old 05-10-2015, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by pdecker View Post
Last weekend I installed a brand new MMI coil, and a 1.5 Ω ballast resistor on the coil + side. I took voltage and resistance data, but do not have it in front of me right now. It reduced the voltage to the coil to somewhere between 11.5 and 12.0 V. The engine started up and ran fine, so I motored out to our favorite anchorage with a thermocouple attached to the coil. The coil temperature never got above 145 F, which was great.

Unfortunately, the engine did a hard shutdown again after 90 minutes, like before, and would not restart. I checked for spark, and it had plenty. I checked for fuel flow going to the carb, and there was NONE. I am going to conclude the ignition system is now fine, and my problem is now fuel related. And for that, I am going to start a new thread, and ask for advice on the fuel issue. Thanks for all your help on this one.

Phil
Those voltage and ohms figures are just about right and I'm guessing will give around 2 amps at coil+ which is more than enough for the Atomic 4, and your coil worries should be over.
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Old 05-10-2015, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
Those voltage and ohms figures are just about right and I'm guessing will give around 2 amps at coil+ which is more than enough for the Atomic 4, and your coil worries should be over.
To quibble ever so slightly, you'll remember that in a series circuit, current is the same everywhere. At a nominal 14.4 VDC charging, and about 5.7 Ohms total resistance, our friend will have 2.5A measured anywhere along the coil circuit.

Sounds like it works for him!
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Old 05-11-2015, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by BunnyPlanet169 View Post
To quibble ever so slightly, you'll remember that in a series circuit, current is the same everywhere. At a nominal 14.4 VDC charging, and about 5.7 Ohms total resistance, our friend will have 2.5A measured anywhere along the coil circuit.

Sounds like it works for him!
He said his voltage was between 11.5v and 12v at coil+. Current may be the same in a series circuit but voltage is not constant in the dynamic system.
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