Engine quitting when it reaches 160

[tenders]

Whatcha makin’ there, Shawn? Do you know how to use that sewing machine over there, or does it belong to the cat?

[Orion C&C 33]

Please consider this: creating a heat sink to dissipate excessive coil heat is a work around. Preventing excessive heat in the first place is the corrective action, address the real problem instead of manage it. Orion, please be advised the MSD Blaster® High Vibration coil in your picture has epoxy as its potting medium. Oil filled coils are known to tolerate heat better than epoxy filled so if coil heat is the concern . . . . . . y'know?

I get your point about about resolving the excessive... definitely! However I don't really think my engine is overheating even at 160 F on the gauge...

I believe my old coil, like lightbulbs they just go on the blitz with out any warning.
Since my old coil still works when cool I can always keep it on board if anything happens to the replacement for now. So, if nothing happens after replacing the old coil I'll just go out and buy another new coil just to have it on board in event of a another shut down.

[Orion C&C 33]

Orion...I like your helper..I have one of those too.

Oh my lord she looks like my second cat... !!!!

[Orion C&C 33]

Check this out for a coil heat shield design. I'm close to doing some real world testing to see exactly the difference it makes, will report the results when finished.

[ATTACH]13655[/ATTACH]

edit: Orion, please be advised the MSD Blaster® High Vibration coil in your picture has epoxy as its potting medium. Oil filled coils are known to tolerate heat better than epoxy filled so if coil heat is the concern . . . . . . y'know?

I didn't know that... Thank you for the advice

So, since I'm planning on keeping a spare coil on board I'll have the secondary spare coil on board for changing out in the future.

Lordco auto parts... advised that the one I purchased is rated for marine use. So I'll guess I'll have to see.

Again thanks for sharing !

[ndutton]

I get your point about about resolving the excessive [heat]... definitely! However I don't really think my engine is overheating even at 160 F on the gauge...

I was referring to excessive coil heat, the reason you're fabricating a heat sink.

I believe my old coil, like lightbulbs they just go on the blitz with out any warning.

Maybe but we have no evidence that's true. We hear about original coils lasting for decades.

Since my old coil still works when cool I can always keep it on board if anything happens to the replacement for now.

Our experience is following a [coil] heat related shutdown, restored operation after cooling becomes shorter and shorter the more the damaged coil is used.

So, if nothing happens after replacing the old coil I'll just go out and buy another new coil just to have it on board in event of a another shut down.

Maybe it's just me but wouldn't you rather find out why the engine shuts down instead of throwing fresh parts at it, the same parts as the last time it shut down, over and over again?

Case in point, a story of management vs. resolution
I've had a couple of shut downs over the years (2 come to mind in 13 years). When it happens I dig until the real problem is determined, then resolve it directly so it hopefully will never happen again. The last shut down was several years ago with a forum member on board. We were putt-putting along before dawn at just above idle in gear, the engine slowed even further, then stopped with a brief screech. The problem turned out to be the shaft stuffing box. The packing was worn beyond its serviceable life, I had been managing the drip by adjusting tighter. Well, it was too tight and applied enough drag on the shaft as it heated up from rotational friction to overcome the engine's HP at idle. The screech was the final protest toward seizure. Corrective choices were to mange the problem by loosening the stuffing box and let her drip all she wanted which I did for that day's excursion but that's management, not resolution. New packing flax was installed shortly thereafter with the boat in the water, problem solved, never to be repeated.

[Orion C&C 33]

I was referring to excessive coil heat, the reason you're fabricating a heat sink.

Maybe but we have no evidence that's true. We hear about original coils lasting for decades.
Our experience is following a [coil] heat related shutdown, restored operation after cooling becomes shorter and shorter the more the damaged coil is used.Maybe it's just me but wouldn't you rather find out why the engine shuts down instead of throwing fresh parts at it, the same parts as the last time it shut down, over and over again?

Hi Neil...

I get your point.... however, I haven't worked around engines since high school and having to take apart and put back together a 5hp Briggs and Staten engine.

Now that I'm back into boating albeit sailing... the Atomic 4, I'm surprised
at how easy it is to work on.

As I removed the coil I found a crack from top to bottom on the old coil... I'm glad I went ahead to change it out and install the new coil along with the heat sink. Otherwise I would still be guessing at what could be the issues with the shut down.

Started the engine and ran it for 20 mins and went below to check on things... First thing I noticed was how hot even the new coil was, you couldn't even touch it, it was that hot. All the wiring was cool even all the connectors.

But what was amazing, the 20"L x 1/2" thick x 6" W aluminum plate was warm to the touch... So it was definitely doing it's job of pulling the heat away...

I going to put aside some time to trace every wire back to it's source function... I see from the many wiring diagrams for the Atomic 4 has only has two leads connected to the coil. But for now it's working and I'm going to carry a spare coil on board for just in case.

I am now concluding that the heated coil... maybe caused by the unknown leads attached to the + and - posts of the coil and should be explored soon and take them off and wire correctly.

When I first took ownership of the vessel... I must admit I was pretty intimidated by this engine. But not anymore, I give credit to the many Afourians for helping me out..

Cheers

mel

[thatch]

Mel, Sorry to have to say this, but it seems that you have completely missed the boat on what is causing your coil over-heat issue. Do yourself a favor and go to the parts store and buy an ignition resistor and install it on that nice aluminum plate you have made. I will guarantee that your coil temp will drop, probably drastically. If you're concerned about the quality of your spark you can do a quick test by using a 5th spark plug just laying on top of the motor and plugged into one of the plug wires. As has been pointed out before, there are many coils out there that have seen many seasons, in the stock mounting position, without failing.
Tom

[roadnsky]

As Tom says, you need to verify your coil's voltage and resistance.

Did you ever read the thread I suggested way back in post #27?

[CajunSpike]

I just installed the pertronix kit.
Used the MMI coil that already supposed to have resistance built in.

Does 'add a resistor' apply automatically or ONLY if the coil you're using does not have a certain amount of ohms built in?

[thatch]

Bill, Absolutely not, the Moyer supplied coil is designed with the right amount of resistance built in. While doing some coil testing a couple of years ago, I reduced the voltage, via an adjustable resister, and was surprised at how low I could go on the voltage. My comment about adding "a resister" was a "seat of the pants" cure for what is actually really a "math problem which should take into consideration the resistance of the coil and whether it is a points or electronic ignition system.
Tom

[sastanley]

Whatcha makin’ there, Shawn? Do you know how to use that sewing machine over there, or does it belong to the cat?

To make sure I contribute to the thread, I have the same experience as Tom. You can keep the engine running supplying only 9-10 volts or so to the coil. (I did this with resistors in series ahead of the coil in my experiment.) If you use Moyer's coil, with its approximately 4.3 Ω resistance (that is from memory without looking it up), you should generally be fine in any electronic ignition application.

Mel, first, measure the static resistance across the (+) and (-) posts of a good coil (not cracked or that has previously killed the motor) with NOTHING hooked up to it. A standard voltmeter in (Ω) mode should handle this. If it is not 4+ Ω you are likely to continue to have issues if you are running electronic ignition. Second, you should know what the INPUT voltage is to the coil with the engine running (and not at idle ~700 RPM, measure it with the engine at normal cruise RPM..the alternator output is likely drastically different between those extremes.) This is measured on the coil (+) post while the ground on the meter is going somewhere like the mounting bracket on the alternator (NOT the (-) on the coil..this is not ground.)

Use Jerry's link to read the history on this..we've already been thru it..Post your voltage and resistance numbers and we will help you. (Neil has a cool/simple spreadsheet that does the math.) If your coil resistance is out of whack, or your input voltage is out of whack, it can be adjusted with an ignition resistor ahead of the coil to feed the coil the correct voltage to help avoid overheating. This is unlikely to be necessary if you are running the Moyer coil, however, we can still work around it otherwise. Places like NAPA sell various little ceramic ignition resistors with blade connectors you can add in front of the coil to lower input voltage if necessary.

I will also second or third the notion that once a coil has failed, its days are numbered. It will run for 45-60 minutes and die on you again and again, only after it cools off thoroughly. Get the input voltage right, and/or get the right coil, and solve the problem for good. I tried all the same things you did..moved the coil off the motor, had dual coils with quick change fittings, etc.

The problem was too much input voltage into the coil, and too little internal resistance inside the coil.. Once those issues were balanced out, I have had no coil related engine failures since. I do still run my coil off the engine mounted on the wall like yours, I see no problem with that! (except vertical..not sure if an oil filled coil is designed for horizontal mounting.)

Now, on to fun stuff, I don't want to sidetrack the thread too bad, but I will follow up on tender's post which I just saw this evening. First, everything obviously belongs to the cat, but, he let me use his room and equipment to make some cushions.

I worked in a sailloft as a youth and learned industrial sewing there in the early 90's. That sewing machine that you can't quite see is a 1950's vintage (I think) Viking/Husqvarna I got for free.

You can see in the first pic what I replaced..lovely 1977 plaid. I would never try to make something like this for anyone else, I'd lose money...but I am pleased with the outcome for my 40 year old sailboat. I sure am glad my wife picked a striped pattern I had to match up tops and bottoms for my first major sewing project in almost 25 years!

(I edited this several times adding more detail on the coil part..sorry it got so long, but I think this is an important subject, especially for new owners..don't relive the crap I already did!!!)

[Orion C&C 33]

Hi All...

Thanks for the input sorry for my delay.... I do need to work to pay the bills.

All good points.... I bought a solid core on the coil with the built in resistor on the specs it reads 4.5 ohms.

So to answer the question I do not have EI...

I still have a Delco rotor (identified by the two screws mounting the rotor cap) with still the points and condenser... which I plan to change out later.

I will get a multi meter and run the tests as suggested... and will post the results later today

[Orion C&C 33]

Mel, Sorry to have to say this, but it seems that you have completely missed the boat on what is causing your coil over-heat issue. Do yourself a favor and go to the parts store and buy an ignition resistor and install it on that nice aluminum plate you have made. I will guarantee that your coil temp will drop, probably drastically. If you're concerned about the quality of your spark you can do a quick test by using a 5th spark plug just laying on top of the motor and plugged into one of the plug wires. As has been pointed out before, there are many coils out there that have seen many seasons, in the stock mounting position, without failing.
Tom

My choice to select and replace the old coil is from the info gleamed not just from my post but other threads as well...

So I went with a solid core coil with a built in resister...

I bought my coil from Lordco rather than Napa.. although good suggestions by all the one thing nobody or at least I haven't read it on any of the threads the running temperature of a coil...

I've read that the resister is supposed to be between the ignition and coil and some have installed it between coil and rotor.

Which leads me after testing the ohms... and voltage. Do I still need a resister if there is one already built in on my solid core coil.

I looked closely at the old one to see if there was an origin of manufacture... non found which leads me to believe it most like produced by a second tier manufacturer in some country other than the US.

Being as curious as I am in life... I'm going to test the ohms and output

This is getting terribly frustrating having to chase down someone's else's wiring abortion.

Other than that, the boat is excellent condition

Cheers all

[Orion C&C 33]

To make sure I contribute to the thread, I have the same experience as Tom. You can keep the engine running supplying only 9-10 volts or so to the coil. (I did this with resistors in series ahead of the coil in my experiment.) If you use Moyer's coil, with its approximately 4.3 Ω resistance (that is from memory without looking it up), you should generally be fine in any electronic ignition application.

Mel, first, measure the static resistance across the (+) and (-) posts of a good coil (not cracked or that has previously killed the motor) with NOTHING hooked up to it. A standard voltmeter in (Ω) mode should handle this. If it is not 4+ Ω you are likely to continue to have issues if you are running electronic ignition. Second, you should know what the INPUT voltage is to the coil with the engine running (and not at idle ~700 RPM, measure it with the engine at normal cruise RPM..the alternator output is likely drastically different between those extremes.) This is measured on the coil (+) post while the ground on the meter is going somewhere like the mounting bracket on the alternator (NOT the (-) on the coil..this is not ground.)

Use Jerry's link to read the history on this..we've already been thru it..Post your voltage and resistance numbers and we will help you. (Neil has a cool/simple spreadsheet that does the math.) If your coil resistance is out of whack, or your input voltage is out of whack, it can be adjusted with an ignition resistor ahead of the coil to feed the coil the correct voltage to help avoid overheating. This is unlikely to be necessary if you are running the Moyer coil, however, we can still work around it otherwise. Places like NAPA sell various little ceramic ignition resistors with blade connectors you can add in front of the coil to lower input voltage if necessary.

I will also second or third the notion that once a coil has failed, its days are numbered. It will run for 45-60 minutes and die on you again and again, only after it cools off thoroughly. Get the input voltage right, and/or get the right coil, and solve the problem for good. I tried all the same things you did..moved the coil off the motor, had dual coils with quick change fittings, etc.

The problem was too much input voltage into the coil, and too little internal resistance inside the coil.. Once those issues were balanced out, I have had no coil related engine failures since. I do still run my coil off the engine mounted on the wall like yours, I see no problem with that! (except vertical..not sure if an oil filled coil is designed for horizontal mounting.)

Now, on to fun stuff, I don't want to sidetrack the thread too bad, but I will follow up on tender's post which I just saw this evening. First, everything obviously belongs to the cat, but, he let me use his room and equipment to make some cushions.

I worked in a sailloft as a youth and learned industrial sewing there in the early 90's. That sewing machine that you can't quite see is a 1950's vintage (I think) Viking/Husqvarna I got for free.

You can see in the first pic what I replaced..lovely 1977 plaid. I would never try to make something like this for anyone else, I'd lose money...but I am pleased with the outcome for my 40 year old sailboat. I sure am glad my wife picked a striped pattern I had to match up tops and bottoms for my first major sewing project in almost 25 years!

(I edited this several times adding more detail on the coil part..sorry it got so long, but I think this is an important subject, especially for new owners..don't relive the crap I already did!!!)

Thanks Shawn!! I will do as suggested... wow love the new upholstery !!

[tenders]

Beautiful cushions there, Shawn, great work. I love sewing but am QUITE sure I will not choose a pattern like that when I hack together my replacements! Matching that stuff up is a real skill...that I don’t have.