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  #26   IP: 71.252.23.95
Old 10-25-2011, 09:27 PM
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Question Oooooo..a new theory!~??!?!?!?

So...is the E.I. module maybe shutting down before total coil failure, allowing an engine to limp home in 15-20 minute chunks?
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Old 10-25-2011, 10:04 PM
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Could be

Shawn,
My guess is that's probably what's going on.
Tom
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Old 10-26-2011, 03:18 AM
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Coil and EI

When I finally reproduced my engine shut down problem while still in the slip a few weeks ago, I was able to immediately swap in a different coil. Switching the wiring over took about two minutes and the engine subsequently started with no hesitation. No amount of cranking was producing any effect with the first coil still in place.

And just to be sure, I then stopped the engine, swapped coil #1 back into place and tried to start the A4. No dice.

For me, this was proof positive that the coil was the culprit.
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Old 10-26-2011, 08:38 AM
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Around the time I got my Indigo system the boat was rewired and presumably the voltage at the coil got closer to 13.8-14.4, depending on the stage of battery charging going on. Also last night I checked one of my spare coils and it is 3.1 ohms. I wonder if a ballast resister of 1 ohm would have solved some of these issues back then?
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Old 10-26-2011, 10:02 AM
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WARNING - Shawn blabbering-long post alert!

Kelly, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment. And, I've had a similar experience. I guess I was trying to figure out from Tom's theory is if in some cases where if a particular boat's 12v system may be on the ragged edge of "too much voltage" that the E.I. may shut itself off, & the unintended consequence of that is a not totally fried coil...(provided it is not an underspec'd 1.5 ohm coil, as was in my most recent case.)

Since it has been spread out quite a bit over various threads & posts, here is my history over the last 30 months or so:

I ran the original 30 year old coil (early 2009) for several days in 45-60 minute chunks (when it would then shut off) while chasing what I thought was a fuel problem. On the 3rd day, some friends I was cruising with came over and helped me wire up a spare 3.0 ohm Pertronix coil & also do some more work on the fuel line (obviously unnecessary in hind sight.) Day 4 was a windless day, the damn thing ran for 45-50 minutes and WHAM...off...... Switched over the coil and she instantly fired and ran without a flaw for the rest of the week and the next two seasons...including some 8 - 9 hour runs, until I started some re-wiring in spring 2011. I think in my case I likely introduced less resistance into the system, upping the voltage in the ignition circuit, and hence breaking thru that 4 amp threshold we've been discussing. In this case, I was able to limp home in 15 minute chunks or so after letting everything cool off for 30 minutes. This setup was a 3 ohm Flamethrower with a Pertronix E.I.

An e-mail to Pertronix yielded the following suggestion, which lasted about 90 minutes of motoring:

This most recent episode of it failing and NOT restarting was a 1.5ohm coil and a 1.5 ohm resistor (Pertronix's recommendation...) coupled with the Pertronix E.I. - Neil & I have decided their tech department may not be reading their own technical documents, since clearly a 1.5 ohm resistor in front of a 1.5 ohm coil does not solve the problem of a 12v system at 14.1v with 3 ohms of total resistance...which clearly exceeds the 4 amp threshold.

So, last night I ran a 0.8 ohm resistor with my 3.0 ohm Flamethrower for 1h20m at the dock with no problem.. - For now, I've even switched back to the OEM Motorola 13.8v alternator..which further drops the voltage in the entire system. I know, I know, that is two things at once, but I also suspect that my other regulator has failed, but I needed to get the engine running again..there is more testing to do there to see if I can keep the engine running with the voltage I want in the system (14.1-14.2) and the proper resistance in front of a 3 ohm coil.

It will be interesting to see if I can get the motor to run with the 1.5 ohm coil again just for fun, but I doubt it. Another nice byproduct of running the engine while I do other stuff around the boat at the dock when it is cold is that the engine heats up the cabin very nicely!
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Last edited by sastanley; 10-26-2011 at 10:07 AM.
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  #31   IP: 24.152.131.155
Old 10-26-2011, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
It will be interesting to see if I can get the motor to run with the 1.5 ohm coil again just for fun, but I doubt it.
Please keep in mind Shawn that this test may put undue amperage through your EI module.

Quote:
there is more testing to do there to see if I can keep the engine running with the voltage I want in the system (14.1-14.2)
Why did you choose this particular voltage? Anything to do with the voltage loss through your isolator?

Quote:
Another nice byproduct of running the engine while I do other stuff around the boat at the dock when it is cold is that the engine heats up the cabin very nicely!
Better the engine than the coil
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Last edited by ndutton; 10-26-2011 at 10:22 AM.
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  #32   IP: 206.125.176.3
Old 10-26-2011, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Please keep in mind Shawn that this test may put undue amperage through your EI module.
Good point.. I have a 2 ohm resistor that should be sufficient at normal voltages....maybe I should throw that coil away or stack more than one resistor in front of it.

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Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Why did you choose this particular voltage? Anything to do with the voltage loss through your isolator?
Yes...I may have to ditch the isolator if I cannot get my voltage where I want it with fixed regulators. 14.1-14.2 charging is my target voltage under normal conditions. While it seemed like a great solution at first, the extra complexity of the adjustable regulator is beginning to wear thin. The possibility it is blowing up $35 coils left & right isn't keeping it in my good graces either.

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Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Better the engine than the coil
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  #33   IP: 75.200.196.196
Old 11-28-2011, 04:00 PM
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Question resistor in weird place

i have discovered an A four with electronic ignition with a resistor wired between the black terminal of the ignition module and coil -. Has anyone ever heard of such a thing?
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Old 11-28-2011, 08:41 PM
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FYI- You can tell if you've burned up your Pertronix module because it has a sticker on it that is temperature sensitive. It'll be melted if the unit has failed.
I believe this only applies to the original Pertronix module and not the Pertronix "II" that has supplemented or replaced it.

Last edited by msauntry; 11-28-2011 at 08:45 PM.
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  #35   IP: 24.152.131.155
Old 11-28-2011, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
i have discovered an A four with electronic ignition with a resistor wired between the black terminal of the ignition module and coil -. Has anyone ever heard of such a thing?
I've never seen one that way but thinking on it I don't have a problem either. It's the circuit amperage that matters and the negative side plays an equal role.
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Old 11-29-2011, 08:51 AM
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Thats how I have my ballast resistor wired in.

Steve
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Old 11-29-2011, 10:41 AM
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If you have a resistor on the negative side, then you don't have to worry as much about mounting location, and about something laying against it and shorting it, as it's already on the ground side?
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  #38   IP: 24.152.131.155
Old 11-29-2011, 10:52 AM
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I don't think so.

With the resistor on the ground side, a short there will cause current to flow constantly and will eventually cook the coil, EI module or both. The ground side of the ignition isn't a solid ground, it actually switches the the ignition circuit on and off. A short on that side negates the ignition function.
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  #39   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 08-21-2015, 05:45 PM
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I wanted to bump this thread and reinforce an advisement.

For those with electronic ignition who choose to follow the recommendations set forth in this and other threads aka the Rule of 2011, whenever you replace a coil I advise measuring its internal resistance and running the calculation described in the first post in this thread NO MATTER WHERE YOU BOUGHT THE COIL.

This is about taking personal responsibility for your own installation, your own engine, your own boat. Do not blindly take published specifications at face value or in other words, trust but verify. If you changed the spark plugs you'd check their gap, if you replaced the alternator you'd measure its output voltage, same goes for the coil.

Be vigilant my friends
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  #40   IP: 107.0.6.150
Old 08-21-2015, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
I wanted to bump this thread and reinforce an advisement.

For those with electronic ignition who choose to follow the recommendations set forth in this and other threads aka the Rule of 2011, whenever you replace a coil I advise measuring its internal resistance and running the calculation described in the first post in this thread NO MATTER WHERE YOU BOUGHT THE COIL.

This is about taking personal responsibility for your own installation, your own engine, your own boat. Do not blindly take published specifications at face value or in other words, trust but verify. If you changed the spark plugs you'd check their gap, if you replaced the alternator you'd measure its output voltage, same goes for the coil.

Be vigilant my friends
Lot of Truth there--- especially the part about " adjusting as necessary" and "not taking published specifications at face value". One thing we might agree on---everyone needs a good multi meter and knowledge of how to use it.
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  #41   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 08-21-2015, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
Lot of Truth there--- especially the part about "adjusting as necessary" . . . . .
Where is that part you quoted?
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Old 08-21-2015, 11:04 PM
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Where is that part you quoted?
Post #1 by ndutton
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Old 08-21-2015, 11:14 PM
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I see, adjust the safety margin as necessary, the only factor we applied in consideration of Pertronix's MAXIMUM specification. Hasn't been necessary.

I apologize if the quote mentioned from the first post in this thread was confusing. Perhaps a paragraph, provided here in its entirety for full context, from another recent thread will help clear the haze:
Quote:
For the record, even though it has been suggested occasionally, we don't make up our own target values. This trip point was the result of solid testing. The 4 amp ignition system maximum described in the Rule of 2011 was a specification from the manufacturer of MMI's electronic ignition product. I'll admit the 15% safety margin applied in the Rule of 2011 was ours but subject to change after subsequent testing if the testing lead us in that direction. It didn't.
In the same thread it was suggested our conclusions in the Rule of 2011 were reached independent of experience (post #33) which of course is untrue (we seem to go through that a lot, don't we?). The postulates were fully and successfully tested in real world applications by multiple members before conclusions were published. Anyone who takes the time to read the 5 star thread Coil Input Information knows this.

To repeat the advisement so it doesn't get lost in other superfluous chatter, be sure to measure the resistance of any new coil prior to installation regardless of its source or pedigree. For those so inclined, apply the measurement as described in the first post in this thread.
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Last edited by ndutton; 08-22-2015 at 08:19 PM.
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