#51
IP: 75.74.240.203
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Here's what a dead coil looks like
Here's what an earlier screaming hot coil looked like after I took it out. My mechanic had earlier moved the mount from the engine to the bulkhead (good!) but mounted it sideways (bad!). This is pre-ballast resistor, of course. When I saw this, there was no fluid left inside, which gave me another clue that the coil had failed.
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#52
IP: 107.0.6.150
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That does look bad, but please explain the part about sideways mounting being bad.
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#53
IP: 199.173.224.31
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I was one of the ones that had all the problems. Prior to the coil current issue being understood EI could be a pain.
That issue is solved now What EI does for you, among other things, is make the system much less sensitive to moisture. I got mine originally for this reason. It also has a good and bad effect of firing really nasty plugs. You can end up masking problems you really shoud be fixing Quote:
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#54
IP: 70.27.63.64
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Quote:
Accels' specs state 1.400 ohms for this coil - far too little for our A4 power. Were you running this coil with your electronic ignition? |
#55
IP: 24.152.132.65
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Phil, can you describe the sequence of events/decisions that led to the selection of the Accel coil?
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Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others |
#56
IP: 71.178.81.29
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Quote:
I've had ZERO trouble with my new (last year) Moyer spec coil when they started offering them again. Haven't we been thru all of this already?? I get confused there are so many threads...
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-Shawn "Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109 "Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!) Last edited by sastanley; 05-12-2015 at 10:11 PM. |
#57
IP: 24.152.132.65
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What do you find confusing Shawn?
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Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others |
#58
IP: 108.48.208.185
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We just keep talking about it, that's all. I realize that someone else will have the same problem from time to time, but we keep hashing this out over and over again and repeatedly drag the threads on and on. I am the guy with the OOW charging system, and even I haven't had any coil problems for years now.
Has pdecker got his stuff all straight yet? Moyer coil yet?
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-Shawn "Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109 "Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!) |
The Following User Says Thank You to sastanley For This Useful Post: | ||
ndutton (08-08-2015) |
#59
IP: 24.152.132.65
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Quote:
No comment beyond that.
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Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others |
#60
IP: 75.74.240.203
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Why the Accel coil, and my latest real data
Someone asked why I put in an Accel coil. I was running down the ICW about 18 months ago, and one morning the engine would crank but not start after anchoring in the Alligator River overnight. I spent four days in Belhaven, NC after a 20+ mile Towboat US tow down the Alligator Pungo Canal trying to get the engine to run after finding I had no spark. I went to a car parts store with the old coil from Moyer. They didn't have an exact replacement, but an old mechanic assured me the Accel would work fine. It didn't. It turned out that my points had failed, even though I had replaced the points a month earlier. (Big cudos to Ken at Moyer Marine for many hours of free help isolating the problem. I couldn't have found it without him.) I got a replacement set of points for $5 at an auto parts store and was on my way again. The A4 ran fine until I got south of Vero Beach, when I had the rough running problem. I nursed it along, going slowly, and finally installed the electronic ignition after the engine died at Lake Boca. The engine worked feebly until I almost made it to my new home slip in Fort Lauderdale. I had to be towed the last three miles.
Fast forward to current day. I have the new Moyer coil and a ballast resistor installed, and the engine starts fine and runs happy. I'll take the boat out this weekend to see if it's really fixed. Here's the actual data. Voltage from alternator to ground = 13.2 V. Voltage from coil + to ground = 11.5 V After 80 minutes of running at the slip in 85 degree ambient heat, the coil is between warm and hot to the touch. My thermocouple on my multimeter isn't working. But, the engine is purring and re-starts easily. I think this system is fixed. By the way, I think vertical mounting is better than horizontal mounting because if the container pops like mine did, you can still have insulating oil surrounding the internal coil. The coil actually worked somewhat when it was in the condition shown in the photo above, and might have worked better if it had oil. Phil Decker S/V Catmandu 1982 Catalina 27 |
#61
IP: 107.0.6.150
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Good to hear that you are closing in on a solution. That run down the ICW must have been nerve racking. Your voltage at alt+ sounds a little low but your voltage at coil+ is in a very safe range. Your experience demonstrates that this is not a "one size fits all" matter that is quickly and arbitrarily solved. It would be interesting to know what your amperage is thru coil+: far below 4 amps, I'll warrant. 0-10 amp analog gauges can be had for $4 plus shipping.
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#62
IP: 76.179.157.47
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Phil - 13.2 VDC is really low for an alternator output - is that measured right on the alternator? Where's the ground? 13.2 is barely charging, that's lower than nominal float charge of about 13.4. Here's where focusing on coil voltage potentially ignores other problems....
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Jeff S/V Bunny Planet 1971 Bristol 29 #169 |
#63
IP: 107.0.6.242
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Quote:
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#64
IP: 66.102.6.167
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Quote:
Bill |
#65
IP: 107.0.6.242
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Yeah, it's "messy". When the engine is running voltages can vary all over the system.
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#66
IP: 24.152.132.65
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It's time to put a stop to this
Quote:
For example, if your alternator output is 14 volts, you should not measure anything less than 13.6 volts anywhere in the boat's low voltage system.*** If you do, it's time for a wiring upgrade to handle the loads properly. No they shouldn't and the ABYC is clear on this point. Measuring objectionable voltage drops all over one boat does not establish the standard for everyone else to follow. Analyzing your own reported numbers using 14.8V alternator output**** as a starting point: Main buss @ 14.26V = 4% voltage drop, already substandard Fuel pump @13.2V = 11% voltage drop, nearly 4 times the allowable ABYC standard Coil + @ 10.5 - 11.0V = probably have resistor(s) in the circuit so the calculation would be skewed Don't agree? Take it up with the ABYC and the NEC (National Electric Code)***** Before repeating your "voltages can (and should be) all over the map" belief, for your benefit and that of the forum with Don's good name at the top of every page I implore you to read the ABYC Standard on allowable voltage drop (ABYC E-11.14.1.2.7). It is clearly presented, not subject to interpretation or opinion. Footnotes: * and the entire electrical industry ** poor connections, wire damage, etc. notwithstanding. We're not talking ignition secondary either so don't go there. *** for essential circuits. Non-essential circuits are allowed a 10% voltage drop per the ABYC **** far too high for conventional lead acid batteries according to Dan Pires, owner of the iconic Newport Beach Marine electrical business Lewco Electric. They've specialized in marine charging systems for 60 years. ***** Citations available if you really need them
__________________
Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others Last edited by ndutton; 08-10-2015 at 08:21 AM. |
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to ndutton For This Useful Post: | ||
Administrator (08-07-2015), Bratina (08-08-2015), Easy Rider (08-10-2015), roadnsky (08-08-2015), Tim (08-31-2015) |
#67
IP: 50.163.78.191
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Power
Wow, you guys had a lot to say between 4/15 and 4/19. Don't know why the thread is listed in the 'current' ones on the web site.
But anyway, it is Power, not current (amps) that heats the coil. Power (Watts) is the product of amps x volts. Furthermore, to get a bit more technical: In operation, it is not a DC system , but an AC system. In an AC system, particularly with an inductive load (the coil), the voltage and current are not in sync - one lags the other. That is why one needs a true RMS power meter to accurately measure power in an AC system. This may not be a big deal. Just shooting my mouth off.
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Ware When it's broke: "It's a sailboat. What do I need an engine for, anyway." |
#68
IP: 24.152.132.65
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Actually Ware, there are other contributing factors, dwell being a big one. Electronic ignition has roughly twice the dwell of points ignition and we found that to be the tipping point in old coil destruction when 'upgrading' to EI.
The extreme example is leaving the ignition on when the engine is not running. There is a 60% chance the coil will be energized (@ the dwell of EI) although in real life it seems it's more like 95%. This is the ultimate dwell scenario and is guaranteed to cook off a coil in short order regardless of voltage, resistance or current. The AC nature of the ignition system is more accurately a modified RMS system with only the positive side of the squared off sine wave and an unbalanced frequency partially as a function of dwell. edit (added after HC's following post): RMS = Root Mean Square
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Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others Last edited by ndutton; 08-10-2015 at 08:11 AM. |
#69
IP: 107.0.6.242
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Quote:
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#70
IP: 107.0.6.242
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If you think this forum chases it's tail on the subject - have a chuckle with this one: http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/.../443002/2.html
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#71
IP: 12.216.194.200
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Quote:
If I remember correctly the freq at which the dist revolves has little effect on the inductance on the circuit. As the freq increases the inductance increases. I did the calc and its posted. Steve |
Tags |
coil, ignition coil, resistor |
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