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  #26   IP: 173.67.45.252
Old 04-20-2019, 09:22 PM
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How do I go about disconnecting the exhaust and running the engine? Do you mean disconnect the pipe at the back of the manifold. Wouldn't water spew all over in the boat?
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Old 04-20-2019, 09:28 PM
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What malfunction in manifold would cause this do you think? If it had a crack internally, wouldn't the pressure test have failed? Just trying to learn here.

If I disconnect the exhaust and run the engine are you saying to pull the pipe off of the back of the manifold and run the engine? Wouldn't that spew water all over the inside of the boat? Not that it would really hurt anything, but is that what you are saying to do?

Edit: Sorry, duplicate posts of a sort. My tablet said the post failed when in fact it appears to have gone though.
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Old 04-20-2019, 09:42 PM
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Your successful pressure test leads us away from casting cracks which is a good thing.

The exhaust coming out of the manifold is dry exhaust. Water is injected after the high point in the wrapped pipe. The test Jerry is describing is loud and dangerous with exhaust gases inside the boat. Please take all available precautions.
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Old 04-20-2019, 09:50 PM
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Understood, but before I attempt this what is it that we are seeking to discern from this test? What's the thought behind doing it? I don't want to go into it not knowing what it's trying to determine.

I am eager to try anything that will help solve the issue without starting to tear the engine apart. It's crammed in a very tight space that's very hard to work in.

Of course I'll do whatever is needed but the more I understand and know about what a particular test is trying to accomplish the better I can diagnose it as I'm performing it. Make sense?

Edit:
I'm back now and can use a real computer. Here are some photos. The top shows how little pressure dissipated over one hour. The middle shows water in oil on the dipsick. The bottom photo shows how the oil change looked coming out. The last time it was literally full of water.
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Last edited by RobH2; 04-20-2019 at 10:10 PM.
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Old 04-21-2019, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobH2 View Post
Understood, but before I attempt this what is it that we are seeking to discern from this test? What's the thought behind doing it? I don't want to go into it not knowing what it's trying to determine
Jerry covered it pretty well:
Quote:
Maybe disconnect the exhaust and run the engine to see if water is still getting in? It would eliminate or point to the exhaust.
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Originally Posted by RobH2 View Post
I'm back now and can use a real computer. Here are some photos. The top shows how little pressure dissipated over one hour. The middle shows water in oil on the dipstick. The bottom photo shows how the oil change looked coming out. The last time it was literally full of water.
As I said earlier, I'm doubtful pump seal damage could ship this volume of water on its own and now I'm also doubting the same with the exhaust although the wetness of the wrap certainly needs to be chased down. Following the exhaust test I expect to be asking for some more but isolated pressure testing. It goes against the grain to follow up a successful test with more testing but the volume of water you are reporting keeps drawing me back.
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Last edited by ndutton; 04-21-2019 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 04-21-2019, 09:34 AM
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Thank you guys.

I'll do that exhaust exploration today. I think I'll pull the exhaust off and examine it. I may not be able to start the engine on Easter due to the noise it will create. I'm downtown in a nice residential area and it would be too disruptive. I can run the engine later this week.

Nine years ago when I bought the boat it had a failed head gasket and a severe overheating problem. I pulled most of the engine apart in the water except for the block. I knew it pretty well and knew what components I had on the engine.

I have to say, my working knowledge of the engine has slipped quite a bit. In the past 9-years all I've done is change oil, filters, plugs and wires. It's been a great engine. I guess in a way I've ignored it becasue it's ran so well. You can tell from my photos how dirty it is. Maybe it's a wakeup call to keep it cleaner and stay more plugged into it.
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Old 04-21-2019, 09:37 AM
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Hey Rob-
Please don't take this the wrong way.
IF this were my engine, I'd re-try the pressure test... to be certain.

As you can see, we're mystified by the amount of water, given the successful pressure test.
That water is coming from somewhere.
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Old 04-21-2019, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobH2 View Post
I may not be able to start the engine on Easter due to the noise it will create. I'm downtown in a nice residential area and it would be too disruptive. I can run the engine later this week.
Good on ya, I respect that.
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Old 04-21-2019, 10:49 AM
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10-4. Will redo the pressure test today. I appreciate your prudence. Plus, it's a 'quiet' test...
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Old 04-21-2019, 10:56 AM
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If that much water is backing up through the exhaust it seems like there should be some evidence of it inside the cylinders. Especially #4. Did you check the plugs or look in the cylinders after you discovered the water in the oil? If that much water is backing up through the exhaust, after running the engine the #4 plug should be wet, and/or there should be water visible in the #4 cylinder. I would redo the pressure test just to be sure. If it passes again, I would run the engine for a couple minutes and check for water in the cylinders.
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Old 04-21-2019, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roadnsky View Post
Hey Rob-
Please don't take this the wrong way.
IF this were my engine, I'd re-try the pressure test... to be certain.
As you can see, we're mystified by the amount of water, given the successful pressure test.
That water is coming from somewhere.
Maybe a bit of quality control is in order.
If the engine passes the pressure test again at the end of the test, while the cooling system is still pressurized, intentionally cause a small leak somewhere in the cooling system and see if the pressure drops.

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Old 04-21-2019, 04:38 PM
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check exhaust

the elbow at the top of your lift muffler assembly has a habit of clogging up. check from the end of the manifold to where the water joins the lift muffler.
I discovered this last fall after being stranded for 2 days! best of luck

Last edited by nyvoyager; 04-21-2019 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 04-21-2019, 08:51 PM
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I see the additional comments. Thank you.

Here's what I found.

1) I redid the pressure test with a brand new pump to make sure I was getting a good reading. The first time I pumped it up to 20 lbs. the air drained out in about 30-seconds. So, I decided to make sure that my connections weren't leaking so I put soapy water on them and found that my plug at the back of the manifold was making bubbles. I tightened that a bit more and pressurized again. That test was completely successful. I've attached a photo that shows that I only lost a couple of pounds, if that, in over an hour.

2) I pulled the exhaust pipe which is black pipe. I knew it was probably leaking as I had steam just above where the water is injected back into it. I've attached a photo of it and the fitting that connects to the brass "Y" is eaten through and separated. I don't think it was separated before I started tugging on it though. I think it just had a slow leak.

This is a significant degradation though. But, how could this cause water to backflow into the engine? The interior of the black pipe was clean and smooth with no scale or obstruction.

This might just be a coincidental leak and pipe failure and have nothing to do with the water incursion. I ran my finger around inside the manifold where the pipe connects and there was water. It was wet and it wasn't oil.

So I need to start the engine now and see if water is spewing out of the manifold in the exhaust. I'm assuming that's what we are looking for from the comment that suggested that I do this (with precautions).
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Old 04-21-2019, 09:14 PM
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Where did you pump air into the system?
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Old 04-21-2019, 11:58 PM
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I pulled the hose coming from the outlet of the water pump and put a Schrader valve there. I plugged the system by putting a plug in the hose that comes off of the back end of the manifold just above the exhaust pipe connection. I know it was pressurized all the way to that exit location because when I released the clamp on the exit, there was still a little pressure and it shot my plug out and dirty water all over me and the interior of the boat.
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Last edited by RobH2; 04-22-2019 at 12:03 AM.
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Old 04-22-2019, 05:53 AM
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possible additional test

Rob,

This appears to be great news - the block/head/manifold passed the pressure test! If I am reading your post correctly, you did the test after the water pump. I would be inclined to now pressure test the water pump itself as the onset of the problem correlated with your replacement of the pump impeller. As others have mentioned it seems unlikely the pump is the issue, but until you test it you will not know for sure.

Re the exhaust, it seems to me that a leak there would reduce the ability of the exhaust pressure to push the cooling water out through the water lift. Perhaps the water backed up past the water injection point? The fact that you were seeing some steam there suggests water was up past the injection point.

You will need to replace that hot section and please do not use galvanized pipe to do so. The metal coating off-gases toxic fumes. Use black iron or stainless. I have also found that cheap exhaust wrap also gives off a horrible stink.

Hope that helps,

Peter
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Old 04-22-2019, 08:57 AM
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Peter, thanks for the info.

To pressure test the water pump just test across it from inlet to outlet, that simple?

10-4 on the exhaust pipe. I used black pipe before and will do so again because I can make that up from standard lengths. For stainless I think I'd have to have a shop make it up and it would likely cost a fortune. However, on the plus side, it would probably last a lot longer.

So you think a small leak would be enough to allow water to back up and make it's way back to the engine? It would seem awfully coincidental if I were to all of a sudden have water in the oil "and" see a steaming leak in my exhaust and have them be completely independent of each other. I'm encouraged now and not so afraid that I need an engine rebuild.

I hope I haven't harmed the engine by running it with water in the oil for the few 4 or 5 minutes that I did so. I do need to get that last watery oil out of there ASAP. I didn't pull it out when I found it as I was so dejected. I just moped home... lol...
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Old 04-22-2019, 09:11 AM
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I agree, the successful pressure test is good news. The only possibilities left are the water pump, exhaust or both. I suggest the money saved by using black iron for the exhaust can be reinvested toward a new MMI flange pump.
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Old 04-22-2019, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobH2 View Post
To pressure test the water pump just test across it from inlet to outlet, that simple?
...
I hope I haven't harmed the engine by running it with water in the oil for the few 4 or 5 minutes that I did so. I do need to get that last watery oil out of there ASAP. I didn't pull it out when I found it as I was so dejected. I just moped home... lol...
Yes on the pump test question.

I had a water incursion event and the mechanic I was working with was deeply concerned about "flash rust" (I think that is the term he used) so his approach was to drain the engine, fill with oil and get running ASAP. Then the usual run for a while to get it all warm, change oil, fill, run, change etc. until oil was coming out non-milky.

Hope that helps,

Peter

Then a nice long motor to get the engine up to temp for a good while to get the last of the moisture out.
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Old 04-22-2019, 10:13 AM
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Good progress! While you are at it - check the brass Y for any blockage
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Old 04-22-2019, 11:58 AM
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+1 on the MMI flange pump

Man, I love my MMI pump I got a few years ago..which reminds me I probably should change the impeller.
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Old 04-22-2019, 12:25 PM
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Bingo

With all of the information you have given us, I personally feel that the break in the hot section is at the root of the problem. The pumping dynamic between the exhaust pressure and the waterlift would be greatly compromised with that break. It doesn't take much of a stretch of the imagination to to see "un-pumped" water building up at that point and flowing back into the #4 cylinder and being blown past the rings and into the pan. While you're at the task of oil changes, I have to ask the question "what access point are you using to extract the oil?". The factory designed removal point is through the 3/4" pipe plug hole under the carb. It is at the lowest point in the "V" on the bottom of the pan where any water would eventually settle. I would also recommend using your current water pump, just to verify that the hot section break was the problem.
Tom
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Old 04-23-2019, 06:06 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Another +1 On The MMI Pump

Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
Man, I love my MMI pump I got a few years ago..which reminds me I probably should change the impeller.
When I replaced my tired Oberdorfer with the MMI pump my RWC cooled engine dropped from 155 degrees to 130 degrees at cruise RPM.
The Moyer pump is just plain a better pump.

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Old 04-23-2019, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
When I replaced my tired Oberdorfer with the MMI pump my RWC cooled engine dropped from 155 degrees to 130 degrees at cruise RPM.
The Moyer pump is just plain a better pump.

TRUE GRIT
Two things:

1. Exhaust update: I rebuilt the exhaust black iron pipe today. I haven't installed it yet but when I got to the boat I noticed I had left my pump/gauge attached. I can confidently say I don't have a water jacket leak as the engine still had 5lbs of pressure left in it from two days ago.

2. This is interesting about the MMI pump. However, I seem to recall reading somewhere that the engine really should be running between 150° and 180° to prevent scale buildup inside the water jacket. Was that bad info? Is it better for the engine to run cooler? I ask mainly because my engine never gets over 150°, even in the summer. I even close off the bypass valve for the thermostat to force it to what I thought was the right temp, above 150° and can never get there.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:23 PM
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Closing the bypass valve has the effect of the engine running cooler.
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