Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Cooling System

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 134.223.230.158
Old 11-16-2015, 08:19 AM
Ajax's Avatar
Ajax Ajax is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 518
Thanks: 4
Thanked 27 Times in 18 Posts
RWC Engine temperature question

Gents-

What is the expected engine operating temperature with a wide open system (no thermostat or adjustable ball valve) on a RWC engine with ambient water temp at around 60F?

I'm trying to verify that I've adequately flushed the crud out of my exhaust manifold. I *was* running at 120-140F with insufficient exhaust water and a lot of steam.

After power flushing the engine, I am down to 100-110F, at WOT, with little or no steam and more exhaust water. Am I there yet, or do I need more flushing?

Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 132.147.29.249
Old 11-16-2015, 09:13 AM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,474
Thanks: 49
Thanked 1,026 Times in 721 Posts
Sounds fine to me.
If the exhaust manifold is the issue and not the entire engine it is easy enough to remove and boil out if it gets clogged again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajax View Post
Gents-

What is the expected engine operating temperature with a wide open system (no thermostat or adjustable ball valve) on a RWC engine with ambient water temp at around 60F?

I'm trying to verify that I've adequately flushed the crud out of my exhaust manifold. I *was* running at 120-140F with insufficient exhaust water and a lot of steam.

After power flushing the engine, I am down to 100-110F, at WOT, with little or no steam and more exhaust water. Am I there yet, or do I need more flushing?

Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #3   IP: 161.213.49.150
Old 11-16-2015, 11:31 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,500
Thanks: 54
Thanked 855 Times in 629 Posts
Ajax
You're good on the temp. You're running only 40 or 50 degrees over the ambient water temp.
After I rebuilt the cooling system on my RWC A4 that has a thermostat I run ~ 70 or 80 degrees over the raw water temp. That is if the water temp is 70 degrees I run ~ 145 to 150. I'm happy with things the way they are.
As I'm sure you know if the temp is too low for you the way things are you can you can put a thermostat in and raise the running temp.
Did you try to localize where the blockage was? Or did you just pressure flush the whole shebang? The manifold has been mentioned and certainly is a prime suspect. You can localize the blockage by disconnecting hoses and seeing where the water flow is decreased.

TRUE GRIT
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 134.223.230.153
Old 11-16-2015, 11:51 AM
Ajax's Avatar
Ajax Ajax is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 518
Thanks: 4
Thanked 27 Times in 18 Posts
John-

I had done two acid flushes of the engine.

It seemed that output from the hose connecting to the exhaust manifold (from the t-stat housing) was sufficient, but I had very little exhaust water and a lot of steam, and the manual indicated a clogged exhaust manifold in that case. I suppose the crud from the cooling jacket had been pushed into the exhaust manifold.

So, I power flushed the exhaust manifold with fittings and garden hose as prescribed. Some solid bits of junk flushed out and the color was very rusty. After about 10 minutes, everything was clear.

Even though I had enough output from the t-stat housing hose, I flushed the block and also got some solid bits and funky colored water for a while. Once the water was clear and without solid crud, I stopped.

That's where I am now. I motored for awhile yesterday with the system wide open, and couldn't get the engine any hotter than 110F. My OEM thermostat is DOA. I'll either buy the manual ball valve setup from Moyer or the Indigo t-stat kit. I haven't decided which one, yet.
Reply With Quote
  #5   IP: 174.91.0.110
Old 11-16-2015, 09:09 PM
Jimmy Jimmy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: London Ontario
Posts: 128
Thanks: 3
Thanked 15 Times in 5 Posts
Ajax
For what it's worth, I would go with the ball valve kit......in fact I did.
After my first season, of removing the T-stat for winterizing, I was sold!

I adjust the valve a couple times a season.as the lake starts around 50 degrees in April, and peaks around 75.

The still good T-stat lives it life in a zip lock bag, stored with other spare parts.

Cheers
__________________

Jimmy
C&C 29 MK1
Erieau , Lake Erie
Reply With Quote
  #6   IP: 134.223.230.157
Old 11-17-2015, 07:16 AM
Ajax's Avatar
Ajax Ajax is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 518
Thanks: 4
Thanked 27 Times in 18 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post
Ajax
For what it's worth, I would go with the ball valve kit......in fact I did.
After my first season, of removing the T-stat for winterizing, I was sold!

I adjust the valve a couple times a season.as the lake starts around 50 degrees in April, and peaks around 75.

The still good T-stat lives it life in a zip lock bag, stored with other spare parts.

Cheers
Your point about the mess of winterization is well made. However, I intend to convert to FWC at some point, and would no longer need to remove the t-stat.

I always thought that the ball valve was kind of "Rube Goldberg" compared with having a proper thermostat to regulate engine temperature, but I'm re-evaluating that opinion.
Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 137.200.32.6
Old 11-17-2015, 08:07 AM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,474
Thanks: 49
Thanked 1,026 Times in 721 Posts
It needs attention every now and again, but it does work and is cheap too


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajax View Post
Your point about the mess of winterization is well made. However, I intend to convert to FWC at some point, and would no longer need to remove the t-stat.

I always thought that the ball valve was kind of "Rube Goldberg" compared with having a proper thermostat to regulate engine temperature, but I'm re-evaluating that opinion.
Reply With Quote
  #8   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 11-17-2015, 09:20 AM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajax View Post
Your point about the mess of winterization is well made. However, I intend to convert to FWC at some point, and would no longer need to remove the t-stat.

I always thought that the ball valve was kind of "Rube Goldberg" compared with having a proper thermostat to regulate engine temperature, but I'm re-evaluating that opinion.
The by pass valve is, in effect, a thermostat - utilizing human brain and dexterity as opposed to spring and lump of metal.
Reply With Quote
  #9   IP: 134.223.230.158
Old 11-17-2015, 09:42 AM
Ajax's Avatar
Ajax Ajax is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 518
Thanks: 4
Thanked 27 Times in 18 Posts
If running with no thermostat, do you want the little check valve in conjunction with the ball valve, or just the ball valve by itself?
Reply With Quote
  #10   IP: 137.200.32.6
Old 11-17-2015, 09:49 AM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,474
Thanks: 49
Thanked 1,026 Times in 721 Posts
You don't need both. The check valve is used as a fixed restriction and the valve is a variable restriction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajax View Post
If running with no thermostat, do you want the little check valve in conjunction with the ball valve, or just the ball valve by itself?
Reply With Quote
  #11   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 11-17-2015, 09:49 AM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajax View Post
If running with no thermostat, do you want the little check valve in conjunction with the ball valve, or just the ball valve by itself?
I do not use a check valve, just the by pass (FWC).
Reply With Quote
  #12   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 11-17-2015, 09:52 AM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
You don't need both. The check valve is used as a fixed restriction and the valve is a variable restriction.
And restrictions are the enemies of a cooling system, especially RWC systems.
Reply With Quote
  #13   IP: 137.200.32.6
Old 11-17-2015, 10:28 AM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,474
Thanks: 49
Thanked 1,026 Times in 721 Posts
Sort of. The more you restrict the bypass the more cooling water flows through the engine instead of around it. When my old old engine would overheat I would clamp visegrips on the bypass hose and drop the engine temperature about 40 degrees

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
And restrictions are the enemies of a cooling system, especially RWC systems.
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 107.0.6.150
Old 11-17-2015, 10:37 AM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
Sort of. The more you restrict the bypass the more cooling water flows through the engine instead of around it. When my old old engine would overheat I would clamp visegrips on the bypass hose and drop the engine temperature about 40 degrees
I do indulge in a little restriction inasmuch as I use 1/2" hose in the by pass loop and 5/8" hose in the main loop but since I use a 3 way (diverter) valve there is no issue of preferential flow. RWC engines with Dole thermostats are the most at risk for blockages but the later thermostats are not much better due to the reliance on a seal in a cast iron housing.
Reply With Quote
  #15   IP: 161.213.49.150
Old 11-17-2015, 11:46 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,500
Thanks: 54
Thanked 855 Times in 629 Posts
Reserve Cooling Capacity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajax View Post
I always thought that the ball valve was kind of "Rube Goldberg" compared with having a proper thermostat to regulate engine temperature, but I'm re-evaluating that opinion.
A good thing to have.
If the engine runs at the desired temp with the bypass valve wide open and if there is ever a problem with the cooling, closing the bypass may allow you to carry on under reduced power until there is time for diagnosis and repair. This is why I think a valve on the bypass is a good idea even in a "normal" running engine. It gives you positive control.
Clamping the bypass hose is a more crude method but would have the same effect.

TRUE GRIT
Reply With Quote
  #16   IP: 73.27.138.11
Old 11-17-2015, 11:23 PM
romantic comedy's Avatar
romantic comedy romantic comedy is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: florida
Posts: 1,912
Thanks: 13
Thanked 118 Times in 100 Posts
Some of us run with FWC and a t stat. Some dont. Mine runs at 180 pretty steady. Maybe hits 190 on occasion. I have the original t stat in. I do have a valve in the by pass, just in case.
Reply With Quote
  #17   IP: 46.176.84.134
Old 11-18-2015, 09:55 AM
nyiftos's Avatar
nyiftos nyiftos is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 59
Thanks: 3
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
The by pass valve is, in effect, a thermostat - utilizing human brain and dexterity as opposed to spring and lump of metal.
Very interesting thread.
I ran the engine without a thermostat for as long as I can remember.
Late model, A-4 RWC.
This summer I installed a by-pass valve in order to bring the temp. to a hotter range.
Well without the thermo. and without the valve, temp. was never over 120F.
With the bypass valve wide open I still cannot go over 120F.
Any ideas why?
Reply With Quote
  #18   IP: 137.200.32.54
Old 11-18-2015, 11:12 AM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,474
Thanks: 49
Thanked 1,026 Times in 721 Posts
Sure. The bypass valve forces water through the engine.
The thermostat forces water to go around the engine.
If the thermostat is defective or the surface it sits on is eroded it will be unable to divert enough water to warm the engine up much. I may have this issue myself, I have to run about full power for a while to see the gauge get over 120.
Now if you don't even HAVE a thermostat, the bypass valve will vary the temperature from cold to really cold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nyiftos View Post
Very interesting thread.
I ran the engine without a thermostat for as long as I can remember.
Late model, A-4 RWC.
This summer I installed a by-pass valve in order to bring the temp. to a hotter range.
Well without the thermo. and without the valve, temp. was never over 120F.
With the bypass valve wide open I still cannot go over 120F.
Any ideas why?
Reply With Quote
  #19   IP: 46.176.84.134
Old 11-18-2015, 11:27 AM
nyiftos's Avatar
nyiftos nyiftos is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 59
Thanks: 3
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
If I got it right, without the thermostat, my bypass valve is pretty much useless for varying the temperature.
Reply With Quote
  #20   IP: 134.223.230.151
Old 11-18-2015, 11:37 AM
Ajax's Avatar
Ajax Ajax is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 518
Thanks: 4
Thanked 27 Times in 18 Posts
A further question-

When shooting the engine with an IR thermometer to compare readings with the engine temp. gauge, exactly *where* are the best places to take your readings?

My understanding is that the temp. sender located in the front of the cylinder head isn't necessarily a true representation of whole engine temperature.
Reply With Quote
  #21   IP: 46.176.84.134
Old 11-18-2015, 12:28 PM
nyiftos's Avatar
nyiftos nyiftos is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 59
Thanks: 3
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
On the issue of the IR thermometer, check on the cyl. head just under the thermo. housing and on the head same spot but at the rear, say right next to the coil mounting. I believe that comparing those 2 should give you a good idea as to the whole temp. situation. Now if space permits, taking four readings on the top side of the head, say 1 for every cyl. should give you a different reading but a nice clue as to the combustion performance of every cyl. individually. I hope this makes sense.
Reply With Quote
  #22   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 11-18-2015, 06:05 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by nyiftos View Post
Very interesting thread.
I ran the engine without a thermostat for as long as I can remember.
Late model, A-4 RWC.
This summer I installed a by-pass valve in order to bring the temp. to a hotter range.
Well without the thermo. and without the valve, temp. was never over 120F.
With the bypass valve wide open I still cannot go over 120F.
Any ideas why?
Yes. The standard by pass valve is only a restrictor of the by pass loop. Opening it up cannot in and of itself create a preferential flow thru the by pass loop. To do it you need to create an external by pass with a three way valve that will divert the flow away from the main loop while increasing flow thru the by pass loop.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to hanleyclifford For This Useful Post:
nyiftos (11-18-2015)
  #23   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 11-19-2015, 12:23 AM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Like this:

Last edited by hanleyclifford; 07-13-2016 at 08:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #24   IP: 96.244.151.23
Old 11-19-2015, 07:10 AM
Ajax's Avatar
Ajax Ajax is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 518
Thanks: 4
Thanked 27 Times in 18 Posts
So with just the ball valve, I will continue to run cool. The only thing the ball valve does for me, is allow me to prefer water to the block -if- I start running hot due to say, ambient water temperature and heavy loading.

The fun thing about this, is if you have an exhaust manifold restriction, the ball valve does not help this, because -all- of the water remains in the engine block for too long.
Reply With Quote
  #25   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 11-19-2015, 10:40 AM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajax View Post
So with just the ball valve, I will continue to run cool. The only thing the ball valve does for me, is allow me to prefer water to the block -if- I start running hot due to say, ambient water temperature and heavy loading.

The fun thing about this, is if you have an exhaust manifold restriction, the ball valve does not help this, because -all- of the water remains in the engine block for too long.
A restriction in the manifold should tend to make the engine run hotter. The larger issue is: why allow restrictions to develop anywhere in the castings? The value of the three way valve, quite apart from it's positive preferential path selection, is that it allows total flow in the system to remain unchanged whereas the thermostat is a net restrictor.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How much voltage drop at Starter while cranking? JackConnick Ignition System 67 07-13-2014 01:03 PM
Request advice with stalling engine Jon K Troubleshooting 20 09-02-2012 09:45 AM
Engine water heater question sleonhard Announcements 2 03-21-2012 09:03 PM
Fuel-Related Engine Shutdowns Don Moyer Fuel System 32 02-18-2011 04:36 PM
installed alarms now engine temp not right eric 352 General Interest 8 01-21-2005 11:33 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2024 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved