Engine won't start, 3 cylinders no compression

[Brent W]

Howdy

Wife and I fulfilled our long time dream of buying a sailboat. 27' Ericson 1974. When we came to look at it, the po had the carb in a bag and a MMI rebuild kit in his hand. I told him I'd fix the carb in exchange for the dinghy and it was a deal. I had never heard of the A4 engine, but being a former nuke submarine mechanic, I figured I could fix this... the next day we motored to Everett!

That was last fall. Shortly after we bought her, I developed a back problem (from 15 years of firefighting) and I was in pain all winter. I neglected the boat over the winter We had a heater running but no other winterizing done.

Surgery in April was a success, and after feeling well enough, I went down to start the engine; it would not start. I began haphazardly troubleshooting, using this forum and the MMI S&O manual. I've read posts for hours, and I think I have it narrowed down.

Engine #190852 UJ, 5101, Carb 68, freshwater cooling system, has cabin heater run off engine (raw water i think), exhaust straight down to water lift muffler (sketch A in S&O manual)

I did full troubleshooting of ignition, I get spark between points. replaced cap, rotor, condensor, wires, coil...

Pulled carb again. Nasty brownish/white sludge in float chamber. Cleaned carb. Drained fuel tank, added fresh fuel with MMO, checked Racor filter, looked clean. (replaced last fall) . Checked sediment bowl on fuel pump. clean fuel.

I had tried starting multiple times during all this troubleshooting. I then read the advice to CLOSE THE SEAWATER VALVE. ugh. Well as I checked it shut, the valve broke and now minor flooding in engine room!

Temporary repair to valve worked (another story) and so now I am hauling out next week to fix thru hull valve. But back to the engine...

With flame arrestor removed, I tried to start engine. A liquid like brownish thin gravy filled the air intake bowl under the choke. I kept sopping it up hoping it would clear. Then a big gurgle and about a cup of liquid appeared there. (not fuel).

Reading on, and discovering its probably water, I start that path of troubleshooting. Compression in cyl 4, none in 1, 2, or 3. Valves stuck? I poured a little MMO in each and came home last night dejected.

Fearing I could cause more harm by continuing, I am humbly asking for advice. I have learned a lot from you all and really appreciate this community.

Thanks

Brent W
S/V Maren
Everett WA

[Oldlaxer1]

Does the oil on the dipstick look milky? If it is, get it changed quickly. Use cheap oil because you're going to want to change it again (maybe twice)
Take your time and eliminate potential causes without causing more problems. Read Neil's thread "Trouble shooting is a process, not guessing ". http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=10222
Then take a logical approach. Others with a lot more knowledge than me will be along shortly!

[Oldlaxer1]

I took a closer look (as close as you can on an old iPad) and I'm not seeing FWC components. Is there a heat exchanger out of view?

[Brent W]

Does the oil on the dipstick look milky? If it is, get it changed quickly. Use cheap oil because you're going to want to change it again (maybe twice)

yes it was milky and the level was high. I changed it, and read a few posts about this issue. Plan to do it 2 or 3 more times

Take your time and eliminate potential causes without causing more problems. Read Neil's thread "Trouble shooting is a process, not guessing ". http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=10222
Then take a logical approach. Others with a lot more knowledge than me will be along shortly!

yes sir, thats the plan, and thank you!

Also, Yes to your next question, there is FWC, Heat exchanger looks like the CFWK_02_265 and the pump is Oberdorfer 201M 01

[JOHN COOKSON]

[QUOTE=Brent W;107098]
With flame arrestor removed, I tried to start engine. A liquid like brownish thin gravy filled the air intake bowl under the choke. I kept sopping it up hoping it would clear. Then a big gurgle and about a cup of liquid appeared there. (not fuel).
Reading on, and discovering its probably water, I start that path of troubleshooting. Compression in cyl 4, none in 1, 2, or 3. Valves stuck? I poured a little MMO in each and came home last night dejected.
Fearing I could cause more harm by continuing, I am humbly asking for advice. I have learned a lot from you all and really appreciate this community.
Brent W
S/V Maren
Everett WA

Take it easy on yourself. You are doing the right things. All is not lost. At least the engine turns over.
Here are some thoughts for your consideration.
(1)The way it sounds to me there was (is?) water in the cylinders that was pushed out through a stuck open intake valve(s). Take the spark plugs out, put a rag over the top of the engine, and spin it until the water is out of it. Then put some MMO or regular oiling the cylinders and spin it again with the starter. The idea is to get rid of the water and lube the cylinders.
(2)Might as well take the carb off and plan on rebuilding it. Sounds like it is full of foreign material. Once you get the carb off take the plate off so you can see the lifters. This will help you nail down the stuck valve status.
(3)I am not familiar with the winters in your area. Is there any chance the engine was frozen when it wasn't winterized? If the engine was frozen do a pressure test of the block to see if it was cracked. If you need to pull the engine because of freeze damage there is no reason to try to start it before you pull it.
I am truly sorry to hear of your misfortune. If the block is not cracked you should be up and running soon. Hang in there. Others will be along with more suggestions.

TRUE GRIT

[Brent W]

Take it easy on yourself. You are doing the right things. All is not lost.

Thanks! I'm amazed by the encouraging folks on this forum!

The way it sounds to me there was (is?) water in the cylinders that was pushed out through a stuck open intake valve(s). Take the spark plugs out, put a rag over the top of the engine, and spin it until the water is out of it. Then put some MMO or regular oiling the cylinders and spin it again with the starter. The idea is to get rid of the water and lube the cylinders.

I thought so as well and took those actions. What causes them to stick? Could it just be the winter without attention?

. Might as well take the carb off and plan on rebuilding it. Sounds like it is full of foreign material. Once you get the carb off take the plate off so you can see the lifters. This will help you nail down the stuck valve status.

makes sense. I did and there was some gunk and some new orange rust stains on the choke and butterfly valve.

I was contemplating removing the head and exhaust manifold to inspect/clean/repair. Would this be a logical step at this point? What is best way to unstick valves if the MMO bath doesn't do the trick?

Is there any chance the engine was frozen when it wasn't winterized? If the engine was frozen do a pressure test of the block to see if it was cracked.

Fairly mild winters, but it did freeze a few times. I did have a small electric space heater in the cabin all winter running, and I hoped that was enough, but I wouldn't bet my life on it. Does the antifreeze in the FWC system prevent that? If I'm learning correctly, the raw water doesn't enter engine, only injected into exhaust where it exits manifold?

Thank you

BW

[ndutton]

I did not read where a cooling system pressure test was recommended. I think it's time and should be performed before pulling off the head. At this point it will hopefully eliminate the possibility of a water jacket breach.

[JOHN COOKSON]

I did not read where a cooling system pressure test was recommended. I think it's time and should be performed before pulling off the head. At this point it will hopefully eliminate the possibility of a water jacket breach.

Post #5 item(3).
You're posting @ 1:55 AM? My goodness.

TRUE GRIT

[Tim]

From the original description of the problem, the water appears to be from cranking a non starting engine without first closing the thru hull. Also, the engine is freshwater cooled. So assuming the coolant is antifreeze, I wouldn't go chasing after a frozen/cracked block. Get the water out of the cylinders/crankcase, clean the carb, make sure you have clean fuel, free up the stuck valves and see if it will start.

[JOHN COOKSON]

I thought so as well and took those actions. What causes them to stick? Could it just be the winter without attention?

Not starting the engine for awhile without proper fogging out or winterization can result in stuck valves. More likely in your case water caused corrosion which resulted in stuck valves.

I was contemplating removing the head and exhaust manifold to inspect/clean/repair. Would this be a logical step at this point? What is best way to unstick valves if the MMO bath doesn't do the trick?

The best and sometimes the only way to unstick valves is to remove the head. This also allows visual inspection of the valve seats. If you can get the engine to start on two cylinders the other stuck valves it might free up. Your choice at this point.

Fairly mild winters, but it did freeze a few times. I did have a small electric space heater in the cabin all winter running, and I hoped that was enough, but I wouldn't bet my life on it. Does the antifreeze in the FWC system prevent that? If I'm learning correctly, the raw water doesn't enter engine, only injected into exhaust where it exits manifold?

Dang you're good. Yes, hopefully the antifreeze in the engine cooling jacket saved the day. If the cooling water goes out through the manifold as in a typical installation you should do a pressure test of the manifold.
BW

I hope you stick around the forum. You have an excellent foundation of basic knowledge and will be an asset to the forum.

TRUE GRIT

[ndutton]

Post #5 item(3).
You're posting @ 1:55 AM? My goodness.

TRUE GRIT

Ah, so it is. Good advice if I say so myself.

After a particularly grueling work week I fell asleep around 7:00 P.M. last night, up @ 1:30 A.M. for the requisite pee and checked the forum. Back to bed @ 2:00, up @ 7:00 for 10½ hours of sleep combined. I really needed it.

[Brent W]

Thanks to all who replied!

As I was tracing out the SW cooling path and exhaust system, I noticed the rectangular cube on the end of the exhaust manifold where the SW hose enters, and I assumed this is where SW and exhaust mix. Does it act as an anti-siphon?

Good advice so far, and I'm hoping Tim is right and I can get valve unstuck w/out removing head.

When you say "Pressure test of manifold", that means the cooling water side, correct? Wouldn't that be evident by a drop in anti freeze level in the heat exchanger/overflow tank?

Plan is today to check compression again, if valves are still stuck, then remove exhaust manifold, inspect/clean and pressure test, and inspect valves from there to attempt to un-stick. Thoughts?

Thanks

BW

[Brent W]

Now what?

So I'm down here on the boat. When I turn it over, watery grey oily mix fills intake under flame arrestor.

Some Water spurted out spark plug holes when removed and engine turned over.

I removed SW hose from exhaust outlet from manifold. When I turned it over, water comes out hole in square chamber where SW and exhaust mix (what's that thing called?)

Obviously water is backing up from exhaust. Could the water lift muffler be flooded? Once I fix that issue, how do I dry out motor?

Thanks

BW

[ndutton]

Before commenting I'd like to know more about what you're calling the square chamber. Is it installed on the back end of the manifold on the top, about 3/4" square (cube actually)?

[Brent W]

I'd like to know more about what you're calling the square chamber.

see photo (with SW hose disconnected) I figured out that it is where the SW and exhaust mix, although I'm not sure of it's operation exactly.

So here is the actions I took today... I figured that water was backing up from exhaust somehow, even though i have the damaged SW through hull shut. It must be leaking by. So I disconnected the SW hose where it enters the exhaust and ran it to a bucket.

When I turned the engine over, some SW flowed out the hose, and also it gushed out of the exhaust hole where the hose goes in. Could the exhaust system be flooded? So I disconnected the water lift muffler and dumped it out, and rinsed out the gunky water that was inside... rust particles and chunks. Same stuff that was backing up into carb intake bowl.

After replacing WLM and sopping up a little more nasty from the intake of carb, I tried it again. Lo and behold, with full throttle and no choke I got it to start... sounded horrible. I'm assuming it's running on one cylinder? Checked compression again and did not feel any on cyl 1, 2, & 3.

I squirted in some MMO to those cylinders above the valves.

Progress! Is there hope of those "unsticking" without removing the head?

Thanks again for all the help

BW