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Old 11-27-2015, 06:14 PM
Shrek Shrek is offline
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Angry A-4 (1972) cranks slowly as if batt. is dead

Hi Folks,
I last used my boat in Aug,2015 and although it has been difficult to start since I bought it in February it does eventually start, but never easily. About 1 month ago I was barely able to start it but eventually got lucky after 1/2 hour trying. This week I have spent hours and hours trying to get it started. At first we thought it was fuel related but the plugs have gas on them. Now even with brand new batteries she will barely turn over with 14v at each battery. I must say that towards the end when things were getting really sluggish, I noticed a sound like you get when you rub your hands together tightly in a circular fashion. The back of the engine has a fair build up of rust around where the starter motor is attached and I am also wondering if the motor itself is now damaged due to all the punishing cranking I have put it through over the last 3 days. The raw water feed has been "off" throughout this process so I am stumped. Clutch issues ? It runs well when running. I just can't get it to start now. Draws the batteries down fast. Any ideas appreciated.
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Old 11-28-2015, 10:00 AM
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sounds to me that the battery connections are either not tight or has corrosion
at the mating ends. This includes the battery ground to the engine.

Steve
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Old 11-28-2015, 10:11 AM
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Talking

You may indeed be in the process of trashing the starter but before going any further I would try to find the underlying problem which could be weak spark. There are many reasons for that especially in a seldom used engine. If you have points start by checking the gap and giving them a cleaning with something like 220 sandpaper or a nail file.
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Old 11-28-2015, 11:16 AM
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Shrek, first thing I would do is check the voltage at the starter when cranking! If it is low it can be two things. It can be just a plain ole poor or dirty connection or a bad ground "cable". The ground side can in some cases corrode inside, in this case keep your hands on the cable and wiggle it around in short lengths from end to end. If you feel an easy spot to wiggle the wire itself has corroded on the inside, not real common however I have seen it many times in old cables. This scenario sometimes will show some white corrosion where the cable exits the insulating sheath not the corrosion on the connections.

Another thought is the solenoid itself making a weak connection when switched.

If the voltage is good at the starter pull it and get it checked before tearing into much more.
AND for the hard starting LOOK at the choke with the spark arrestor off to be sure it fully closes when trying to start and I do mean fully closed!!! If it is not fully closed it is a simple adjustment.

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Shrek (11-28-2015)
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Old 11-28-2015, 02:42 PM
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Thanks all !

Thanks to all for the very quick responses to my first ever posting - Wow, what a great community of new friends. I will post again soon with my results when I get to the bottom of this. Shrek.
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Old 11-28-2015, 03:42 PM
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Shrek,
Hopefully you have a decent multimeter to take these voltage readings.
First voltage I'd check while cranking is the voltage between the battery negative terminal and the engine. This check will show up a bad ground cable or connection. Once this is good, you can start checking the positive terminals while cranking. 12V to the solenoid shows good positive cable and connections. 12V to the starter shows the solenoid closing, but the starter not drawing current. With the starter operating properly, you should see about 8 volts or so at the starter terminal. A low voltage here indicates that current isn't getting through the solenoid. A high voltage indicates that the starter isn't drawing current. Let us know what you find.
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Old 11-29-2015, 02:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
You may indeed be in the process of trashing the starter but before going any further I would try to find the underlying problem which could be weak spark. There are many reasons for that especially in a seldom used engine. If you have points start by checking the gap and giving them a cleaning with something like 220 sandpaper or a nail file.
Use short 7-9 second cranking bursts. Wait an equal amount of time between starting tries. This will give the battery a chance to bounce back and the starter motor a chance to cool down a bit.
If you have points buy yourself a points file. Available at your local "boutique" auto parts store for a couple of bucks.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 11-29-2015, 12:33 PM
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more thanks and fingers crossed

Going down to check/clean all connections after breakfast this morning.
I'm in Pacific time zone.
Fingers crossed - will post results later in my day, Thanks again all.
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Old 11-29-2015, 01:04 PM
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No need to repeat the good advice offered but one thing seems to be overlooked or assumed good: battery condition. Batteries being new doesn't mean they're fully charged. In the first post you reported they were over 14V at each battery, a number that is abnormally high for fully charged batteries and therefore suspect. It implies the battery voltage measurement was made with a battery charger connected making the measurement unrealistic.

The batteries may be fine as you assume, one of the load tests mentioned will determine that for sure. In other words, don't discount low batteries solely on assumption. For good troubleshooting practice they should be assumed not good until the testing confirms otherwise. Nothing is off the table at the onset of troubleshooting.
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Old 11-29-2015, 08:46 PM
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Update

Visited the vessel today along with she who must be obeyed, and checked all wires and connections for corrosion and tightness - all seems okay but it still doesn't want to go round and round except very sluggishly, like dead batteries.
Going back down there tomorrow with a friend who is quite conversant in these issues, so we will do some testing with a multi-meter and get some real readings.

After that I have an appointment with the marina mechanics who can determine the problem while I still have some hair left !

Will update the solution for all within the next few days - I promise.

Thanks all for your support.
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Old 11-30-2015, 01:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrek View Post
Hi Folks,
it has been difficult to start since I bought it in February it does eventually start, but never easily. About 1 month ago I was barely able to start it but eventually got lucky after 1/2 hour trying. This week I have spent hours and hours trying to get it started. At first we thought it was fuel related but the plugs have gas on them. Now even with brand new batteries she will barely turn over with 14v at each battery. I must say that towards the end when things were getting really sluggish, I noticed a sound like you get when you rub your hands together tightly in a circular fashion. The back of the engine has a fair build up of rust around where the starter motor is attached and I am also wondering if the motor itself is now damaged due to all the punishing cranking I have put it through over the last 3 days. The raw water feed has been "off" throughout this process so I am stumped. Clutch issues ? It runs well when running. I just can't get it to start now. Draws the batteries down fast. Any ideas appreciated.
Please,please be sure and check to see if the choke is closing all the way. The underline part of your quote above leads me to believe the choke is not closing all the way.
Your hunch on starter motor damage due to excess cranking may be correct.
If the batteries and wiring check out OK the starter motor would be the next suspect.
I'm not trying to be preachy here but in is never a good idea to use the starter motor excessively. If the engine does not start after a reasonable amount of cranking it's time to switch to the diagnostic mode. As you own your A4 longer you will get more and more of a "feel" for it.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 01-05-2016, 08:24 PM
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Success !

Well, I tried and tried so hard to get my A4 started, that I killed my starter motor. The longer I tried, the slower it turned and was accompanied by what sounded like metal sliding on metal sounds, kind of like rubbing your hands together whilst pressing them tightly together. It just about fell apart on the shop floor with dead bearings. We really believed it to be dead batteries. WRONG ! After the starter motor was replaced the mechanics at the marina still could not get the thing to fire up. They connected a separate fuel tank with a bulb primer to see if they could force out a blockage but could not budge it.
So they removed the fuel bowl (possibly the fuel pump, mechanical) fuel bowl reported to have no sediment screen inside it and was not too clean inside. I do have a 10 micron water separating filter, ahead of the fuel bowl though.
Anyway, the main culprit seems to have been a blocked jet in the carb which they say was pretty well gummed up. The carb is all cleaned up now.

She fired right up with a little throttle and full choke and runs like a champ.

Can the newer Moyer Marine s/s fuel bowl, sediment, screen, and gasket be fitted to the old fuel bowl housing and using the new bale assembly?

I love my A4 all over again. Seems to rum more quietly now and is about to get either a repair kit or new Oberdorfer FWC pump to deal with a coolant leak down the main shaft of the pump.

Thank again to all who offered advice on this issue.

Last edited by Shrek; 01-05-2016 at 08:26 PM. Reason: omission
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Old 01-05-2016, 10:12 PM
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Whoa, Shrek! Welcome back!

Glad you got it running again.

Ethanol laced fuel (if that is what is in the tank) can gum up the carb bits in weeks.

Also, in your case, sounds like the starter was on its last legs and could not muster the power to spin the motor fast enough to start either (however, if the carb was clean the starter would not have had to work so hard!)

Ken at Moyer parts can answer the fitment of the moyer S/S fuel bowl, but I think it is designed to fit the OEM pump. I have a mech fuel pump too and really enjoy its simplicity.

Do whatever you can to make sure you give her clean fuel..if you know it will be a while before you run it again, I might make sure that there was no leftover gas in the carb to gum things up..it could be as simple as draining the carb bowl so the carb itself is empty. 1/2" wrench will open the carb drain..be mindful of the fiber gasket/washer when you remove the plug.
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Shrek (01-08-2016)
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Old 01-06-2016, 10:00 AM
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Always good to hear good news.

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Old 01-06-2016, 11:11 PM
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Yup - it will fit

"Can the newer Moyer Marine s/s fuel bowl, sediment, screen, and gasket be fitted to the old fuel bowl housing and using the new bale assembly?"

I can say with certainty that it fits perfectly ....and that shiny stainless steel adds just a touch of class to the old beast

Cheers
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Old 01-08-2016, 11:38 AM
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Fuel supply/filtration/gear shifting with wheel steering

Jimmy,
Thanks for the info re. the new fuel bowl etc.
My mechanic said he found nothing inside the bowl when he removed it - no screen ?? He just cleaned it all up and re-installed it, and I don't think he even replaced the gasket ??
I have seen, somewhere on the internet, a fuel bowl fitted with a 7 micron paper element, cartridge type polishing filter, which I believe fits right over the nipple inside the top of the bowl housing. Have you heard of anyone successfully doing this or should I simply replace it using the new s/s bowl, bale and an OEM filter mesh screen, and of course a new gasket?
I am so ecstatic about how well and how quietly my A4 is running now, that each time I go down to the marina, I sart her up just to listen to her "singing"
For some reason she seems to be much quieter and smoother now ! Starts straight up on the first push of the starter button, with full choke and a very small amount of throttle at the throttle lever.
New Oberdorfer FWC Pump going in and a new choke cable in the next couple of days due to a shaft leak causing a low loss of coolant. next job is fixing a stiff gear shifter cable on the Edson Wheel binnacle. Looks like the install should have used the heavier lever for the shift cable,at the binnacle end because the A4 needs a 20lb. force to move the mechanical shift lever at the engine end. They may have to convert over to the heavier duty shifter lever, if they can't loosen things up.

Gordon Foster, Vancouver, BC, Canada/ Point Roberts Marina, WA. USA

A4 FWC/1972/Columbia30/Wheel Steering/continuing project
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Old 01-08-2016, 12:19 PM
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Two things Gordon,
  1. You are correct, the binnacle shift is way different for the A-4, should look something like this one. Chances are if your pedestal was factory installed it is likely a Yacht Specialties brand rather than an Edson.
  2. I worked at the factory when your boat was built. The Columbia 30 line was next to mine.
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Old 01-08-2016, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post
"Can the newer Moyer Marine s/s fuel bowl, sediment, screen, and gasket be fitted to the old fuel bowl housing and using the new bale assembly?"

I can say with certainty that it fits perfectly ....and that shiny stainless steel adds just a touch of class to the old beast

Cheers
I have an extra, after replacing the bowl on year and the mechanical fuel pump the next. I like.it so much that I keep the extra on a book shelf for dodads.
It's to small.or I would use it for a water glass.
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Old 01-08-2016, 04:20 PM
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Shrek.
Per Ken at Moyer Marine. Do not install a filter.in the sediment bowl. If any water makes its way to the bowl and is trapped there it will cause the fittings on the paper filter to rust (it did to mine) and may/will cause trouble in the carb.

Add an inline (polishing) filter between the main fuel tank cult e r and your fuel pump or between the fuel pump and carb.
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Old 01-08-2016, 05:47 PM
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Wink Fuel filter bowl and screen

My water separating 10 micron, I believe, filter is between the fuel tank and the feed to the sediment bowl. I found elsewhere on this site, the secondary cartridge which can be placed inside the fuel bowl, is actually also a 10 micron filter, so I could not see what possible use it would have been unless it had been less than 10 microns. However I have now decided that 10 microns should be enough and I will order a new s/s bowl, bale, gasket and mesh screen to imrove on the original equipment and get the sexy look of the new bowl into my engine compartment. I wonder how many microns that mesh screen is anyway??? Should the jet in the carb be okay at 10 microns in my main fuel filter or should I be aiming for a lower micron rating. Or is the real problem the goop caused by the ethanol in the fuel, or just because my engine lay dormant for a couple of months. I now start it every time I go down to the boat and run it up until I've seen the thermostat kicking in and out a few times on the water temp. gauge. I am now paranoid regarding overheating and fuel conditioning issues, having apparently cured both in my 10 or so months of owning Dawn Treader. It is a good thing, paranoia - it keep us on our toes !
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Old 01-08-2016, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrek View Post
My water separating 10 micron, I believe, filter is between the fuel tank and the feed to the sediment bowl. I found elsewhere on this site, the secondary cartridge which can be placed inside the fuel bowl, is actually also a 10 micron filter, so I could not see what possible use it would have been unless it had been less than 10 microns. However I have now decided that 10 microns should be enough and I will order a new s/s bowl, bale, gasket and mesh screen to imrove on the original equipment and get the sexy look of the new bowl into my engine compartment. I wonder how many microns that mesh screen is anyway??? Should the jet in the carb be okay at 10 microns in my main fuel filter or should I be aiming for a lower micron rating. Or is the real problem the goop caused by the ethanol in the fuel, or just because my engine lay dormant for a couple of months. I now start it every time I go down to the boat and run it up until I've seen the thermostat kicking in and out a few times on the water temp. gauge. I am now paranoid regarding overheating and fuel conditioning issues, having apparently cured both in my 10 or so months of owning Dawn Treader. It is a good thing, paranoia - it keep us on our toes !
I guess you know the fuel should see the course filter first then the finer filter last.

You asked "is the problem caused by ethanol in the fuel or because the engine lay dormant for a couple of months?" It could be both. How new is the fuel in the tank? Also how clean is the tank and the fuel in the tank? You may have water in the tank which is some how getting past the separator and filters. Some members have found that ethanol laced fuel especially with water in it can raise hell in the carb even after passing through filters and separators. It can be a battle if you don't have clean fuel in the tank. You may have a handle on this already.

BTW I think of as being conscientious rather than paranoid. I do find it rather amazing that the more you know the more you find to do as far as these engines are concerned.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 01-08-2016, 06:54 PM
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Yes, I do realize the finer filters always go closer in order towards the carb.

Some of the fuel in the tank was as old as August 2015 and the tank has been topped up with a couple of gallons to around 12-14 gallons in total. The fuel also has stabilizer in it and the engine is running perfectly for now.

The condition of the tank we are assuming to be excellent given that the tank is made of Monel and looks to be in first class shape externally.

After the carb and sediment bowl were cleaned out and the blocked jet serviced and the new starter motor fitted she started right up immediately.

I will run her a few more hours yet and do as the mechanic suggested- empty out the fuel filter (which does not have the water valve at the bottom) into a bucket and examine how much water and sediment I find, if any, and proceed from whatever I find at that time. For now I have ordered the new s/s sediment bowl, screen filter, bale, and seating washer for the bowl in the hope that this will be a good upgrade of a 43 yr. old engine, as I will at least have some parts which should last a very long time without worrying about corrosion from within the bowl. Do you think the Racor water separating filter would be a better way to go, as far as periodic checking by simply undoing the nut on the lower part of the housing is concerned vs. having to remove my existing filter completely to make the same check. Would only water get to the visible part of the lower chamber. If so perhaps I should just stick to the filter I have and empty it out occasionally, as I can also check for sediments at the same time?
Thanks again, Gordon
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Old 01-08-2016, 08:08 PM
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Question Just for Fun

If you have a monel tank from the early 70s you just might have a bottom drain. Have you been able to see all of the underside of the fuel tank clearly?
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Old 01-08-2016, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
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I will run her a few more hours yet and do as the mechanic suggested- empty out the fuel filter (which does not have the water valve at the bottom) into a bucket and examine how much water and sediment I find, if any, and proceed from whatever I find at that time. For now I have ordered the new s/s sediment bowl, screen filter, bale, and seating washer for the bowl in the hope that this will be a good upgrade of a 43 yr. old engine, as I will at least have some parts which should last a very long time without worrying about corrosion from within the bowl. Do you think the Racor water separating filter would be a better way to go, as far as periodic checking by simply undoing the nut on the lower part of the housing is concerned vs. having to remove my existing filter completely to make the same check. Would only water get to the visible part of the lower chamber. If so perhaps I should just stick to the filter I have and empty it out occasionally, as I can also check for sediments at the same time?
Thanks again, Gordon
IMO you have a good middle of the road plan R\E the fuel supply.

That said I view filters as sort of back up or insurance. I would never depend on filters water separators ect to clean up dirty gasoline before it reaches the engine. If you use filters in this manner you are not attacking the problem at its source.

So anyway: If you catch a lot or water or KRAP in the filters it will be time to pump out the tank and if necessary remove the fuel tank from the boat for cleaning. We'll cross that bridge if and when we come to it.

I'm envious of your Monel tank. They're top of the line.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 01-08-2016, 11:15 PM
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