Re-install my A-4 and systems

[sproption]

To all who read this, I come to you with incredible humility and hard won wisdom.

I thought I could get by with an outboard on my Ericson 29.

I removed my A-4 and ALL supporting systems after experiencing a failed shaft seal, discovering a section of rotten wood in the engine bed and various other minor issues. I thought since I was going to remove the engine, try an outboard instead.

I am an idiot.

As a part of the outboard conversion, I removed the A-4 fuel tank, exhaust system, control panel, gauges, prop strut and shaft, fresh water intake and all through hulls, etc. EVERYTHING. I wanted a clean bottom and no holes in the boat.

After experiencing a season of cruising on the Great Lakes, I sheepishly admit how incredibly stupid that was.

I possess ALL of the systems and parts described above. I am going to plan to re-install my A-4 and support systems and return to the days of inboard engines.

So...my first step will be to have the engine rebuilt.

My second step is to make sure my engine bed and mounts are correctly prepped and I align my new prop shaft and existing prop strut that I removed from the bottom of the boat.

Having never done this before, I find myself in new territory. I seek advice in the following areas.

1. Strut installation and alignment and shaft alignment.

2. Re-install of the engine bed mounts (4 of them) One of the engine bed mounts had one of the two lag screws spinning in space. Other guys at the boatyard said the wood block under the fiberglass bed was rotten and required me to cut away the glass and remove the rotten wood, replace with white oak and re glass that in...

3. Reinstall of Monel Fuel tank and grounding ( I ground the wires that were connected to the deck fill that was soldered or welded on)

I KNOW I am missing much more and seek advice on this process. If anyone can direct me on ANY of the issues listed or not...well, that would be great!

Is there anything I am missing? Is there something I am not considering that should be first?

Thanks to all.

Matt

[Dave Neptune]

Matt, you came to the right place to start such a project. Plenty of assistance and knowledge.

I do have a question as to what the problem was with the OB. I had an E-27 #734 with an OB. It worked very well and no failures. I did add an additional spacer to the long shaft which was a common practice then. Kept the prop in the water. Was that the issue loosing drive? Just curious.

Dave Neptune

[sproption]

Hi Dave!

Thanks for your reply.

Many pics of E-27's wit OB motors inspired me to go with the conversion.

As for my outboard, I installed a Honda 9.9 HT 25" shaft. I had to mount it kinda low on the transom. I have a Garelick 9" adjustable bracket.

I was cruising on the Michigan side of L. Michigan and getting ready to enter a harbor. The wind died and the waves were getting sloppy as we were near the entrance (400feet) and they still had a lot of residual energy.

I was warming up the four stroke when a sloppy 2-3 wave came in an snuffed out the engine from underneath (there is an idle air intake under the engine) . I spent 20 minutes trying to get it started again, while slatting and banging...and slowly drifting toward the seawall.

Essentially, I am faced with dead/dying wind at some harbor entrances and find myself reluctant to start the engine with sloppy 2-4 waves that are a danger to pooping the engine, flooding it, then rendering my sailboat with little/no steerage due to a dead motor and no wind.

I consulted with a sailboat guy who swears by outboards and he really had no answers for me other than don't enter some narrow harbor entrances or anchor out till the waves die down.

Generally, as I was doing the install of the outboard, I was wondering if I was doing the right thing. I mean the design of the E-29 and E-27 for that matter is that the waterline astern is very far forward relative to many other boats and the hull shape of the E-27/29 is kinda like an inverted whale (meaning in a good way...very hydrodynamic...) but it means pitching at the ends can be extreme.

I was wondering how do you handle similar situations? Perhaps there are some tricks that I am unaware of? Perhaps I am not a competent OB operator? IDK.

I look forward to your wisdom on this issue.

Matt

[JOHN COOKSON]

Originally Posted by sproption

Hi Dave!
I was wondering how do you handle similar situations? Perhaps there are some tricks that I am unaware of? Perhaps I am not a competent OB operator? IDK.
Matt

Always, always have an anchor on board, made up and ready to toss. Any engine, even a well maintained A4, can dish out surprises at times.

TRUE GRIT

[Dave Neptune]

Matt. that is the reason for the extension. On my 27 I ran an Evinrude 15 at 30 inches. We added another 5" extension and extended the OB's drive shaft for the lower unit. It is rather simple on some motors.

A OB with a bottom side air intake is worthless!! I'd see if I could seal that intake and let it breathe through a snorkel tubl like the "off shore series of OB's. You can dunk them and no worries unless of course it stays under.

Look to catamaran and tri builders as they do a lot of drive extensions on OB's.

Check the Honda and see if it has an extension piece in the housing above the lower unit gear case. Or look at the same Honda in a 20". Your motor and the 20 inch are probably the same just the 25 inch has a 5 inch spacer and a longer drive shaft. The extended shafts are simply cut in the area of the extension and a piece of SS tubing is "silver soldered" between the two ends. Same extension for the shifter too. Tat way the water pump and all else fits perfectly.

I would go for a bit more power for cruising and an electric start. My ole 15 was an electric start and I loved the way it worked.

Dave Neptune

[sproption]

Hi Dave and thanks again.

Now you have my intense interest

Could you send me links to images of what you are referencing?

Could you send me links to websites? I will contact Honda about this and do further research.

please feel free to contact my by PM.

Matt

[Dave Neptune]

Matt, I have done at least 50 engine extensions but that was at least 40 years ago. I worked on early catamarans and tri's. To keep weight down and space available OB's were used. Some motors were extended as much as 40 inches to get from the wing deck to the water, but they needed a brace too and you shouldn't need one.

I have no pics and the internet was not even an idea at that time.

Look at some catamaran build it yourself kits and there may be some info there. Also call a few shops about extensions.

Try asking your Honda dealer if he cat take your (I know it is a 25 but they don't) 20" 9.9 and extend it to make it a 25". If they say they can then extensions are available and adding another is not a big deal. I can help you through it too. This is something the factory does not really support and common in the aftermarket.

Dave Neptune

[sproption]

Hi Dave.

I think I am going to stick with my A-4 reinstall plans.

Thank you for your input and ideas.

Matt

[sproption]

To all who read this, I come to you with incredible humility and hard won wisdom.

I thought I could get by with an outboard on my Ericson 29.

I removed my A-4 and ALL supporting systems after experiencing a failed shaft seal, discovering a section of rotten wood in the engine bed and various other minor issues. I thought since I was going to remove the engine, try an outboard instead.

I am an idiot.

As a part of the outboard conversion, I removed the A-4 fuel tank, exhaust system, control panel, gauges, prop strut and shaft, fresh water intake and all through hulls, etc. EVERYTHING. I wanted a clean bottom and no holes in the boat.

After experiencing a season of cruising on the Great Lakes, I sheepishly admit how incredibly stupid that was.

I possess ALL of the systems and parts described above. I am going to plan to re-install my A-4 and support systems and return to the days of inboard engines.

So...my first step will be to have the engine rebuilt.

My second step is to make sure my engine bed and mounts are correctly prepped and I align my new prop shaft and existing prop strut that I removed from the bottom of the boat.

Having never done this before, I find myself in new territory. I seek advice in the following area.

1. Strut installation and alignment and shaft alignment.

I removed my prop strut, now I have to re-install it after I applied epoxy mush and bottom paint over it.

How do I make sure the strut aligns with the stuffing box?

Thank you for your wisdom.

Matt

[ndutton]

I suggest apitong instead of white oak for the engine stringers, far stronger and rot resistant. If you get creative you may be able to find it very cheap or even free. Asian machine tools (mills, lathes) are often bolted to apitong bases for shipping. I learned this when searching for sampson post stock for the Westsail project. The machine tool business I got them from was happy to have me haul them away.

You may find this thread useful too.

[sastanley]

Oh, good, I see Neil is here to help.

I have a few Q's..
Did you plug or remove the shaft log (the pipe that goes thru the boat for the shaft)? I suspect Neil can help better than I can in this area, and I see he's provided a thread link to help.

After that, you simply install the engine, your prop shaft will easily slide thru, and you use the mounts to align the engine to the strut/log. Easy as pie!

More questions...how did the engine run when you pulled it? Are you rebuilding it because it is out of the boat and it is convenient before re-install? (which seems like a perfectly legitimate reason, I am just curious). Also, I hope that if you haven't already, you'll make sure the inside of the fuel tank is spotless, and you'll have new hoses and filters and all that stuff, and might as well re-wire the engine circuit too...no reason not to do it right if starting from scratch.

(OT - Neil, my step-father used to get VW engines shipped into the dealership in mahogany bases/crates..I got enough from him rip down and make three tillers over the years for free.)

This will be a fun journey...make sure you take lots of pictures!

[ndutton]

Originally Posted by sastanley

OT - Neil, my step-father used to get VW engines shipped into the dealership in mahogany bases/crates..I got enough from him rip down and make three tillers over the years for free.

Off topic indeed. There's mahogany and then there's mahogany. Philippine mahogany is pallet stock, pinkish in color and an unremarkable grain. Honduras mahogany is the beautiful appearance grade stuff. Same species, completely different look.

Back on topic, your shaft log question is huge, the answer will direct the re-installation.

[Dave Neptune]

Re the stringers for the engine mount. I have done a few with "structural fiber glass". Available in channel, angle, box etc. It is easy to fabricate and readily bonds to the hull with poly resin or preferably epoxy. It won't rot either.

Food for thought.

Dave Neptune

[Al Schober]

Hopefully you left the stern tube (piece of pipe) in the hull. Shove a dowel into the stern tube and go from there. Strut should line up with the dowel, then the shaft line will come forward through the center of the stern tube. Use a wire to show the centerline. A bushing will hold the wire centered in the strut, then move the forward end of the wire so it's centered in the stern tube. A piece of 1/2" plywood will adequately simulate the engine - wire goes on top of the plywood, mounts or engine bed underneath.
If you removed the stern tube, hopefully there's still the hole in the hull?

[sproption]

Hi Al,

Thanks for that...good idea.

However, in my removal of the A-4 and in an effort to make sure I did not have leaks, I epoxied the holed inside with a paste.

The stern tube is still there. It has been epoxied shut. The depth of the epoxy fill is probably about 2" or less.

Outside of the hull, I filled and faired the hole that was there for the shaft to make for a cleaner hull underwater. The depth of the epoxy fill is also about 2" or less.

Same for the prop strut. Filled and faired. On the inside of the boat, the form of the strut and former bolt holes of the strut mount is clearly in view. My thoughts were to cut/grind out the epoxy fill from the outside and remount the strut, using the bold holes as my guide. I have to be careful about depth.



Matt

[sastanley]

Matt/Al, let's not get sidetracked with the extra thread..I think it is good the log is still in place..maybe Admin Bill can take posts #2 & 3 and merge them into the other thread Matt started.??

edit - Thanks Admin Bill for moving these (now posts 14 & 15) into the main thread.

[sproption]

Neil, Shawn and Dave.

Thank you. I will answer in order.

Thanks for the thread! That one I will print and read each word...carefully.

As for the engine stringer, I also saw where an engine bed was fiber glassed over foam for the form and fit, but then the base was a 3/8" soft steel plate that was drilled and tapped for the base. I was thinking this might be cleaner...but maybe not as the glass still has to be cut/ground out.

To answer your few Q's..
1. shaft log on the inside (fiberglass molded tube for the shaft) was plugged with epoxy paste, about 2" deep. No more.

More info: I plugged the exit point outside of the hull in a similar way AND the prop strut was removed, holes and embedded form, filled and faired with epoxy mush. One cannot see anything from the outside, but inside the boat, it is obvious where the strut was mounted and where the bolt holes were.

2. Engine worked great but issues were coming up that concerned me (engine bed/stringer) and shaft seal failure. Yes, my thoughts were that I would install ALL new hoses, wiring harness...etc. Rebuild the engine while the rebuilding is good. My rebuild would be done either locally or by Moyer.

Neil,

Yes! the shaft log question IS huge! My thoughts were that the proper alignment of the log and prop strut HAS to be first, then the engine can be dropped in and should align. Does that sound right?

Cutting, boring, drilling out the shaft is problem one. Problem two is making sure that my reinstallation of the strut matches the shaft hole nearly perfectly. Does that sound correct?

Dave...structural fiberglass...thank you. I will look into that.

You guys are great.

Matt

[ndutton]

If the existing shaft log is to be re-used it will determine the position and angle of everything else.

Place the shaft inside the shaft log (no stuffing box yet) and shim it with wood wedges both inboard and outboard so it is centered in the log at both ends. Install the strut following the steps described in the link I provided previously. With the wedges still in place install and align the engine. At that point the shaft and wedges can be removed, the stuffing box installed and the shaft and prop. Prop tip clearance to the hull should be a minimum 1½ x shaft diameter and the exposed shaft between the aft end of the strut and the forward face of the prop hub should be a min-max of 1 to 1½ x shaft diameter.

[Dave Neptune]

It really shouldn't be to hard to cut the epoxy out of the shaft log. It is already an oversize hole so drilling, scrapping or grinding should be no big deal.

However is the threaded end still in place for the shaft packing nut?

Dave Neptune

[sastanley]

Dave, My shaft log had a piece of exhaust hose clamped to it, and then the other end of the hose was clamped to the threaded part of the bronze "stuffing box".

[JOHN COOKSON]

Originally Posted by sastanley

Dave, My shaft log had a piece of exhaust hose clamped to it, and then the other end of the hose was clamped to the threaded part of the bronze "stuffing box".

Ditto on my boat.
My boat also has a piece of exhaust hose to the stuffing box.
I think exhaust hose is not the best to use? I recall there is something "more proper" to use?
The yard did mine before my forum days - I didn't know any better then.

TRUE GRIT

[Tim]

The stuffing box should be connected to the shaft tube with packing box hose. It is heavy duty, 4 ply hose designed for packing boxes.

http://catalog.buckalgonquin.com/vie...uty-12-section

[sastanley]

Yeah Tim...that is what mine has now, same brand...it is even stiffer than exhaust hose..

[Wrsteinesq]

I had the same problem on a Tartan 27. PO had no need of an engine and had removed it, and cut down the engine beds, and glassed over the shaft alley. So it was up to me to determine where the engine went; where the shaft alley went, and so forth, just like you're doing now.
I'm not familiar with the Erickson 29, but it sounds like you have a strut. Picture a straight line (like a chalk line) between the output flange of the engine and the bearing in the strut, running from inside the hull to outside, and that's what you need to replicate.

Since the strut is fixed in place and doesn't move, that's one end of it. Now you need to determine where the output flange of the engine will land. It's not clear to me what forensic evidence there may be to permit that; but once both ends are determined, the shaft alley is self revealing. I would think that if the strut can be remounted, an appropriately straight dowel run through the strut bearing might point pretty accurately to the exit point of the shaft alley, where it leaves the hull.

I had forensic evidence as to where the inboard end of the stern tube had been. I also had the advantage of a propeller aperture cut in the rudder. I made the bold assumption that the propeller shaft must emerge about halfway up the vertical height of the aperature, to allow the prop to spin, and I used the halfway point as a reference. With the front and back ends of the stern tube mostly identified, I was able to bore with a Forstner bit on several extensions, an oversize hole that represented the gross dimensions of my new shaft alley. I knew that the hole would be oversize, but that the stern tube would be located within it, and would be bedded in appropriate epoxy mush.

If you have the luxury of some evidence of the former location of the engine beds, that would be helpful. If you don't, you will need to determine that. Don't forget to allow enough room for the engine to be adjusted up and down, and left to right. In other words, make sure that whatever mock up you use to represent the height of the engine output flange, that you measure it with your engine mounts in the halfway position, so that later on, you will have the ability to adjust the engine to meet the (fixed) landing of the inboard end of the prop shaft.

What this all boils down to is this: you know where the strut is. You need to determine where the output flange of the engine will be. I assume it is on centerline, but its height is subject to question. Answer that question. Then bore an oversize hole between the two, run an actual stringline, or maybe use a laser, and goop your new stern tube into place so the stringline (or laser) cuts right down the middle of that Sterntube. Nothing to it. Yeah....right....good luck....

[sproption]

Neil, Shawn, John and Tim,

Thank you! Great idea on the shaft and shims. Thanks to you guys for the encouragement as I have little to no experience with mechanical skills.

As for the stuffing box and the hose, yup that's me too!

Wrsteinesq, thanks for all of your description. Sounds like your Tartan was changed more than my Ericson. I still have the bed, even the lag screw holes for the engine mounts and from the inside of the boat, the bolt holes for the strut are clearly visible. But thank you none the less.

The biggest issue with the strut is getting the depth into the hull just right. My strut was embedded into a molded recess of the hull (which I filled and fared) and then held in place with threaded rod. The depth of that molded recess is the wildcard here that will prove a challenge. I may have to grind/cut then fit the strut, measure again, remove the strut, and repeat grind/cut and fit, repeat to get that right.

One of my big take aways from the input of the responses is that the strut/shaft alignment is first...then the engine is second.

This will be a long, tough slog. I am very thankful for this forum and the people behind it all!

Matt