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Old 02-06-2014, 08:45 AM
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New Product - Engine Warning and Diagnostic System

Check out this new product introduction for Moyer Marine!



The Engine Warning and Diagnostic System (EWDS), designed by Dutton Engineering, when added to our basic temperature and oil pressure warning kit (KTAS_01_191) provides a visual and audio alert to five different engine performance parameters; oil pressure, coolant temperature, raw water flow, fuel pressure, and coil input voltage. The purpose of the EWDS is to alert the operator to any of these engine systems that is malfunctioning (or about to malfunction) so that remedial action can be taken before the fact of an unexpected shutdown. The EWDS cannot be installed unless our basic temperature and oil pressure warning kit has been installed previously.

The EWDS uses the full function and sensors of the standard Cole-Hersee Alarm system, and (if installed) the Raw Water Flow Sensor (KTAS_01_563). The Raw Water Flow Sensor is optional, but necessary for full designed function of the EWDS.

Sensor trip points for fuel pressure is factory preset at 1 psi or lower, and the coil voltage trip point is preset at just below 9 volts. Oil pressure and coolant temperature trip points are determined by the Cole-Hersee alarm system; 200 degrees and above for the temperature alarm and oil pressure below 6 psi. The raw water flow sensor is set to detect when raw water flow is reduced to a rate just below normal starter RPM (essentially a little more than a trickle).

Click here for more!

Last edited by Administrator; 02-06-2014 at 08:48 AM.
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  #2   IP: 24.152.131.153
Old 02-06-2014, 09:59 AM
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Talking out of school a little

It was a distinct pleasure working with Don on this project. This was a little more than two years in development and Don has wanted something like it for much longer.

Our first concept was much more elaborate but the anticipated price quickly ramped up beyond four figures so that was nixxed. After a bit of a layoff we approached the idea from the other end, Spartan all the way keeping price in mind. Well, that one was a little too Spartan so Don added a few more parameters to monitor and this is the result.

Say you're motoring along and the RPM falters. What's wrong? Even the best of us won't know for sure right away but a quick glance at the indicator panel could provide a clue. Maybe the 'Fuel' light is illuminated. You'll know instantly there's insufficient fuel delivery to the engine to provide reliable operation. Or say the buzzer goes off and the 'Flow' light illuminates. You don't have a problem yet but you will in short order, your cooling water flow has stopped.

I'm planning another instrument panel revision in the immediate future and adding the EWDS is one of the reasons why. The more information available, the better.

Thanks for the idea Don and thanks for including me.
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  #3   IP: 172.10.155.48
Old 02-06-2014, 10:10 AM
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Nice work

So, if I read this correctly, if any of the 6 systems has a problem, the Cole-Hersee buzzer will also sound, is this correct?
Tom
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Old 02-06-2014, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thatch View Post
So, if I read this correctly, if any of the 6 systems has a problem, the Cole-Hersee buzzer will also sound, is this correct?
Tom
That is correct. No need to have your eyes glued to the panel. Any monitored parameter out of spec will cause the buzzer to sound grabbing your attention. You then check the EWDS panel for an indication of the problem area and of course check the gauges as well.

If the buzzer sounds at least one light is illuminated. Depending on the problem, maybe more. For example, if the oil pressure drops low enough to cause the OPSS to open you'll have buzzer + 'Oil' light and 'Fuel' light. If the OPSS fails on its own you'll have buzzer + 'Fuel' light only. Lights not illuminated indicate those parameters are still within spec, your attention can be directed elsewhere.

BTW, 5 systems.

edit, to clarify a little more:
The buzzer will not sound without illuminating a light. A light will not illuminate without a buzzer alert.
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Last edited by ndutton; 02-06-2014 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 02-06-2014, 10:34 AM
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I don't see a statement to that effect, but I am about 90% sure that is the case. This is replicating the "master caution" system in aircraft where the light/buzzer gets your attention and then you check the panel to see what the issue is.
Wish list:
Find a water sensor useable for gasoline and add a "drain filter" alarm. This exists for Racor diesel filters now.
Find a vacuum switch set to about 3 inches and add to the fuel filter for a "clogged filter" alarm.



Quote:
Originally Posted by thatch View Post
So, if I read this correctly, if any of the 6 systems has a problem, the Cole-Hersee buzzer will also sound, is this correct?
Tom
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Old 02-06-2014, 10:39 AM
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Joe,

You're thinking as we did in the early stages but with every parameter we monitor comes added cost and that cost gets significant quickly.
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Old 02-06-2014, 10:41 AM
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Oops

Thank's for the clarification on the buzzer. As a side note, I counted the lights and came up with 6, no wonder my checkbook won't ballance.
Tom
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Old 02-06-2014, 10:48 AM
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If anyone does find a water sensor, let me know. I totally hate draining the gas just to see what is in it.
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Old 02-06-2014, 11:41 AM
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Great Job!
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Old 02-06-2014, 11:55 AM
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Thumbs up

EWDS is rather hard to pronounce. How about DEWDS? Dutton Early Warning and Diagnostic System.

Nice work.
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Old 02-06-2014, 12:49 PM
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Amazing product! Many thanks to Don and Neil!
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Old 02-06-2014, 01:06 PM
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Russ, Good call, since I consider myself an "A4 DEWD".
Tom
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Old 02-06-2014, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by lat 64 View Post
EWDS is rather hard to pronounce. How about DEWDS? Dutton Early Warning and Diagnostic System.

Nice work.
OTOH, we could call it NEWDS - Neil's Early Warning and Diagnostic System. But maybe that would be too California...
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  #14   IP: 174.58.84.3
Old 02-06-2014, 05:50 PM
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Just call it a Dutton?

I got a red light on the Dutton?
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Old 02-06-2014, 07:53 PM
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Talking

OK, we jokers have had a little fun but in all seriousness we should recognize that this is a significant upgrade for the A4 fleet. In particular the raw water flow, fuel pressure and coil voltage are important functions heretofore neglected by most in the A4 fleet but on this forum we know how important these functons are. Commendations to Neil for this important move; it could take it's place alongside the original "Dutton Device".
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Old 02-06-2014, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
If anyone does find a water sensor, let me know. I totally hate draining the gas just to see what is in it.
Diesels, who injectors are water sensitive, have detectors. My dodge cummins has this at the bottom of the fuel filter.
http://www.genosgarage.com/FLEETGUAR.../#.UvQ2TPldVww
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Old 02-06-2014, 10:26 PM
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I did some research on this today. Racor says their senders will work with gasoline, but they don't want the liability. They usually go in the bottom of a filter and thus would be leaking gasoline if they failed. Apparently Mercury and Yamaha do use these sensors for gas, but then again they are outboards. The theory is very simple - the resistance between the two probes is much higher in fuel then water. I think I can make a system to do this without too much trouble.
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Old 02-06-2014, 10:37 PM
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My dad has a 225 Mercury V6 outboard. It has a cartridge spin on gas filter in the engine cover. At the bottom of the filter is a water sensor. It is hooked up to an idiot light at the throttle control. It came on when we were out fishing one time. I guess it works.
Problem is that the sensor is part of the disposable filter. The filter is expensive. I think that was discontinued.
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Old 02-06-2014, 11:54 PM
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Well, I 'spose DEWDS is better than LEWDS.

Thanks for the kudos but please remember such monitoring was Don's desire long before I got involved. We aren't sensing everything that can be but tried to give the most bang for the buck. In line with that goal we went with a buildable system. You can have any of three levels of monitoring depending on your wishes and budget, each subsequent level utilizes the prior installation:
  1. Start with the basic Cole-Hersee oil and temp alarm. Either of those goes out of whack and a buzzer alerts you to 'something's wrong.' It's up to you to figure out what.
  2. If you choose, you can add a flow sensor specifically designed to be compatible with the C-H alarm system. It plugs right in, the buzzer is still the only report however. If you don't want raw water flow monitoring (although I can't understand why not), the EWDS works just fine without it
  3. Now finally, if you want to know what's tripping the buzzer without frantic testing plus add two more operational monitors you can add the EWDS.
Tight budget? No problem. Spring for the basic alarm system, it will be useful later as you build onto it.

Joe et al,
For your safety please keep ignition protection within the engine space in the back of your mind as your system development progresses. Having a gasoline engine in an inboard environment is a game changer.
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Old 02-07-2014, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
I did some research on this today. Racor says their senders will work with gasoline, but they don't want the liability. They usually go in the bottom of a filter and thus would be leaking gasoline if they failed. Apparently Mercury and Yamaha do use these sensors for gas, but then again they are outboards. The theory is very simple - the resistance between the two probes is much higher in fuel then water. I think I can make a system to do this without too much trouble.
Absolutely a valid point. Once a year, guaranteed, my sensor unit at the bottom of the filter in my diesel truck will leak. New filter comes with a new O ring but I can see it happening and it can start when the boat is sitting or underway...and leaking does occur occasionally.
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Old 02-07-2014, 09:44 AM
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Yeah - I may forgo this. I have to balance the number of times water has stopped me vs. the danger of leaking gas. My thoughts right now are getting the plug out of the bottom of the Racor, drilling a hole and running a wire though it, and then using epoxy to seal the hole. The leaking tendency would be no higher than ever around the plug. The danger would be the epoxy unsealing itself somehow. 50/50 if I pursue this or not.

Even More Lights:
Starter Engaged (this is rare, but if the starter hangs up it turns into a large and unregulated generator. This can cause a lot of damage and a fire )

Water Flow - Fresh Water Circuit

Voltage at Fuel Pump (is the fuel pressure low because there is none or because the OPSS is bad)

Exhaust Over Temp (kind of redundant with water flow, but I think this is an ABYC or USCG requirement now)

Gas Fumes

Carbon Monoxide

High Bilge Water

Are we up to $1000 yet
Quote:
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Absolutely a valid point. Once a year, guaranteed, my sensor unit at the bottom of the filter in my diesel truck will leak. New filter comes with a new O ring but I can see it happening and it can start when the boat is sitting or underway...and leaking does occur occasionally.
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Old 02-07-2014, 10:11 AM
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One of the parameters not mentioned that we really wanted to do as long as the component cost was not in the stratosphere was exhaust back pressure. Sourcing an affordable electrical sensor (switch actually) with a low pressure trip point that was capable of withstanding the operating temperature was the problem. With occlusion common at the water injection point the sensor would have to be located in the hot section. I found plenty of 240° pressure switches but they wouldn't last 15 minutes.

Reliability was a requirement during development too.

Joe, your suggestion of voltage at the fuel pump is interesting. It works for those with electric fuel pumps but we wouldn't want to ignore our mechanical pump brethren. Sensing fuel pressure covered both.
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Last edited by ndutton; 02-07-2014 at 06:17 PM.
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Old 02-07-2014, 10:41 AM
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Awesome system. I want one!

Joe, I like the idea of using the flow meter for a fresh water circuit as well.

On my boat, the fresh water side is electric, the raw water side mechanical. I can tell if the raw water is pumping by looking over the transom..Unless I have the engine at WOT, I can hear it too. I CAN'T hear the electric circulation pump fail..the only way I know is if I open the radiator cap on the HX.

Neil, will the flow sensor handle 190°F antifreeze?

Oh boy..something to add to my Moyer wishlist!

Bill, I think you guys need a little section on your home page about new products. I was thinking just under the graphic & menu, to alert website shoppers that aren't forum members. After 5-6 months, when the product isn't "new" anymore, you can just remove the link.
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Old 02-07-2014, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
Neil, will the flow sensor handle 190°F antifreeze?
Yes it will BUT - - and it's a BIG BUTT - - the operational temperature is 100°C meaning very little or no margin of safety at our FWC normal temperatures. You'd be running constantly @ 90% temp rating and one little glitch takes you over the edge. The sensor would likely report a loss of flow during its last gasp on the path to destruction.

Plus, with the Johnson CM30-7 pump being a non-positive displacement type you'd want to avoid as much restriction as possible. The MMI flow sensor imparts a 7% restriction.

I think this is a case where you rely on your temperature gauge and the over temp function (original Cole-Hersee sensor) of the EWDS. At the trip point you'd get a buzzer warning and a red light. That's why it's there. I like the way you're thinking though, get out ahead of it before it becomes a crisis.
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Last edited by ndutton; 02-07-2014 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 02-07-2014, 11:10 AM
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A pressure guage/switch for the FWC maybe?
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