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View Poll Results: Is your bilge wet or dry?
Bone dry 11 10.58%
Wet but I wish it weren't 49 47.12%
Wet as I would expect 44 42.31%
Voters: 104. You may not vote on this poll

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  #51   IP: 24.152.131.155
Old 04-04-2012, 05:45 PM
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Yes Bill, I made the patterns. They are made of plywood, glued together, filled, sanded and painted. I learned how to make casting patterns during my Westsail project. There were a number of custom bronze castings installed and I was fortunate to have a bronze foundry within walking distance of the boatyard. When I started the search for foundries for this project I met with the manager of one and explained what I as doing but didn't have the first pattern done yet. He said come back with the pattern but warned me he examines customer patterns with a VERY critical eye. When I returned a week later he looked it over carefully, stroking his chin and after an uncomfortable silence deemed the pattern acceptable, "I give it about a 'B'. Doesn't get much better than that, I never give an 'A'." Whew!! Those familiar with the process will admit there's more to it than it appears.

The patterns are all I have to show at this time as parts have not yet been made. Since the pattern project and decision to go with castings (I found a local stainless foundry), I now have waterjetting available to me. I'm considering having the floors fabricated from waterjetted stainless plate and welded together. The jury is still out but I now have an option I didn't have previously.

The curves in the patterns may seem like they are there solely for style but actually the curved arches between the bolt flats on the bottom are limber holes for the passage of bilge water, the dips in the spine on the top allow room for hoses and such.

Russ,
Yes, pilot holes deeper than the lags but just barely. I have no intention of retorquing later but I don't want the lags to hit bottom just as I'm finishing up. That will be the most difficult time of installing the bolts. The sealant I intend to use is 5200 and by retorquing I risk breaking the sealant bond through the existing stump. Watertightness of the finished product is important.

Bill,
My Westsail was ballasted internally too, no such concerns with bolts or adhesives.

Hanley,
I share your concerns with torquing against castings but please note the gussets between the spine and both sides of the bolt flats. Also, this remedy is supplemental to the original adhesive and anchor bolts that have done their job pretty well for 35 years. I don't expect to be mechanically hanging the entire mass of the keel on this system, it's more of a stabilization remedy. This is a long term project so don't expect a follow-up any time soon. Scheduled installation is at the next haulout in 2 or 3 years.

And thanks guys for the input. I knew exposing it on this forum would garner excellent responses. It's been received with mixed reviews on the Catalina 30 Yahoo forum, probably too extreme a remedy for them. On another forum it was suggested rather strongly that it could not be done unless I was a credentialed naval architect which I am not but the poster, one of their 'featured contributors' was. I posted back I'm open to a better suggestion if he had one. Nuthin'. This is the same guy with the Atomic 4 'BOOM' comments. Draw your own conclusion.
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  #52   IP: 98.101.210.6
Old 04-04-2012, 09:58 PM
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Talking Different Thinking

After studying the repair instructions from Catalina and Neil's plan it is clear that Neil is going beyond the original design for carrying the ballast keel in that he introduces the use of "floors" to help spread the load upward into the reverse curve area, a wooden boat concept. The factory solution is nothing more than a replacement of the mushy plywood (a bad idea to begin with) with layers of fibreglass mat and roving. Lapping it higher in the reverse curve area is a poor substitute for the introduction of floors. This is getting interesting.
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:15 PM
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Thumbs up

Hanley, I've already told Neil that if and when he ever gets an estimate to build those floors, I'd be interested to know a price. If his manufacturer has to fabricate all the tooling, might as well build two sets and start recovering some costs.

These parts that Neil may fabricate are obviously Catalina 30 specific...and additionally their fitment is individual to each boat, since it isn't like swapping bumpers on a car of the same model year when 50,000 of them exist, & every boat is still 'custom'.

With a little over 6000 boats built, and probably a few cut up by now, most of those existing owners oblivious to the problem, and a pile of old codgers that already know everything (like the ones Neil's already run into) he ain't gonna get rich on the project...but if I can help a fellow sailor save a few bucks, and also benefit myself, I am all over it.
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Last edited by sastanley; 04-05-2012 at 07:58 AM. Reason: typos
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
... he ain't gonna get rich on the project...
I dont know. He could sell them to a gallery! They certainly look like works of art to me!

Beautiful job Neil!
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  #55   IP: 98.101.210.6
Old 04-04-2012, 10:26 PM
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Question

The question that lingers in my mind about this Catalina 30 keel issue---why not drill right thru the ballast keel and use thru bolts?
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  #56   IP: 24.152.131.155
Old 04-04-2012, 11:32 PM
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Most times my projects are intended to meet a specific need of mine without a single thought of marketing to others. I have quite an array of Neil-specific creations. A great example on this forum is my fuel polish/filter purge system. It works great for me, transfers fuel from one tank to another, polishes fuel, purges air out of the filter after a cartridge change and provides a manual shut-off valve immediately ahead of the carb. We've heard my sermon over and over yet I think I have the only one in existence. Oh well, it works for me and that's good enough.

There's been some interest in the floors project but everyone is waiting for me to pull the trigger which still has a couple of years to go. The good thing about castings is easily repeatable parts. The only hand work is deburring and drilling the bolt holes. Fabricated waterjet parts will have considerably more hand work so I expect the price to be a dealbreaker there. Shawn's on my list of a handful of owners to keep in the loop as this progresses. We might be able to save a little with multiple castings off the same pattern but probably not much. The price I was quoted 2 years ago was based on minimum charges. We were looking at around $650/set, castings only. The bolts were another $150. This is why I don't want to incur separate yard fees, would rather do it as part of a regularly scheduled haulout with other work.
Quote:
The question that lingers in my mind about this Catalina 30 keel issue---why not drill right thru the ballast keel and use thru bolts?
The vertical cross section of our keel tapers to the bottom and six of the seven accessible bolts start out near the keel sides. This is enough to give me the willies as I drill deeper. Also, if I were to drill the entire depth of the keel we're looking at maybe three feet of 3/4" clearance hole through lead. Times seven. That's more than I want to think about.

edit:
Thanks Ed. Presentation matters too.
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prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 04-07-2012 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:04 AM
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Lightbulb

Hanley, Some people have done that...drilled a big hole right thru the middle of the keel, drilled a 2nd hole perpendicular to that from the bilge & set a long stainless stud down thru the bilge, added washers & nuts and filled the hole. On the other hand, no one has ever heard of a keel falling off from the failure of the original studs due to the bonding agent that was used.
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Old 04-06-2012, 04:15 AM
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Neil,

I have two amateur questions:

1) Is there a reason to not cast the holes into the floors for the passage of your bolts? Is it easier to drill after casting?

2) You mention the wave form on the top is to accommodate wires/tubes etc. You've done the calculations, and I'm only speaking from instinct, but wouldn't a straight section across the top greatly increase strength? Especially in the case of the ends bending toward the middle. Is this not an issue at all?

Thanks and great project...
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  #59   IP: 24.152.131.155
Old 04-06-2012, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
1) Is there a reason to not cast the holes into the floors for the passage of your bolts? Is it easier to drill after casting?
Making the holes as part of the casting process is possible but complicates the patterns and sandcast mold dramatically. It would change from a single pattern to four patterns per floor: two mating floor halves and two core boxes. In fact, the more I think about it I don't think it could be done with four patterns, probably more. Considering the very few number of floor sets anticipated (like two) I chose to go with simplicity.

Quote:
2) You mention the wave form on the top is to accommodate wires/tubes etc. You've done the calculations, and I'm only speaking from instinct, but wouldn't a straight section across the top greatly increase strength? Especially in the case of the ends bending toward the middle. Is this not an issue at all?
You are correct, straight across the top would be stronger. In my estimation for me to need that added strength the entire bottom of my boat would have to fail below the turn of the bilge. I figure the real strength is needed from the middle of the turn down to the bolt flats and I have a lot more meat in that area. The Sparkman and Stephens design has virtually zero sheer strength at the upper extreme.

Quote:
Thanks and great project...
Actually it is me who's thankful. The questions and input from you all really helps the brainstorming. I've been tinkering with this for a couple of years and there's still a couple to go.
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Old 04-06-2012, 09:47 PM
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Edward,

Re post 31....you are on the money. My raw water pump has a leak and was dumping water in the bilge as I motored (siphon effect also I imagine). No water in oil so that's good. I pulled the one off my spare engine and that has some tracking of a small leak out a weep hole...but it looks good and the shaft is perfect. All said, it's better than what I have there now. I'll put it on tomorrow.

So......I sucked the bilge dry with the shop-vac and nothing came back in...so once I sort out the pump situation I should be back to dealing with rain water down the mast now and then.

I talked to Ken at MMI and discussed the pump that is on there now. I'll take it home tomorrow and haul it apart, check the shaft etc and see where we are with it.

Thanks man.
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Last edited by Mo; 04-07-2012 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 04-07-2012, 06:21 PM
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Pump changed out.

Takes me 17 minutes to change out the raw water pump on my boat...easy and good access as I can fit into the lazarette and it's right there. Pulled the old one off and installed the one from my spare engine....it leaked worse than the one I took off.

So, with that I took mine home and hauled it apart. The grease shaft was so loose that I put some teflon on it and reinstalled....everything else looked OK...but looks can be deceiving. Returned to boat and did the change again. No leak this time and all seemed good. Ran engine for 20 minutes and then looked for evidence of water in oil as well....all OK.

Shafts are in decent shape on both. I initially though mine was iffy 5 years ago but I`ve always religiously kept the grease to it....there is a small mark but no scoring....that should be fine. So that`s the water in the bilge sorted out for now because it was siphoning from a leak in the raw water pump.

Also fixed a corroded grease cup with epoxy. Brushed it clean with bench grinder / brush and then mixed up some epoxy and beads....worked well. Pic attached.

Pic attached of ratchet wrench...worked perfect to remove the lower bolt on the raw water pump...there was nothing to it.
Attached Images
  
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"Odyssey"
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The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
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  #62   IP: 98.101.210.6
Old 04-07-2012, 06:48 PM
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Question

Mo - Isn't there supposed to be a ball type check valve in that grease zerk?
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Old 04-08-2012, 05:20 AM
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Thumbs up thanks Hanley

You are right Hanley. I read about it somewhere now that you mention it. I am going to have to haul it off again and check. Right now all seems good but that will surely have to be checked....thanks for bringing it up.
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The pessimist complains about the wind.
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The realist adjusts the sails.
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Old 04-08-2012, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice View Post
Did this a few years back. Drilled and tapped the hole..about and inch diameter (I'd have to double check). Bought a piece of threaded brass (threaded both inside and outside). Also bought a brass plug that would thread into the inner part of the piece.

I then put epoxy resin with some cilica beads mixed in both in the hole and on the threads of the tubular piece of pipe (this is the one threaded on the outside and inside. Screwed it into the hole in the boat and let it set up. Next day I screwed the brass plug into it to check...all good. Removed the plug and faired around the edge of the tubing with epoxy, sanded and was done.

When the boat comes out I screw out the plug...and back in before launch....I'll go take a couple of pics in an hour or so.

Mo - "threaded brass"?

Or, threaded bronze?

Big difference...especially in a salt water boat.

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Old 04-08-2012, 01:31 PM
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I have a wet bilge - both my stuffing box and fridge drain into the bilge.

I have two auto bilge pumps on a "water witch" that keep things at the 1" level but every week I draw the water out with a hand pump just to try and keep things fresh.

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  #66   IP: 98.101.207.146
Old 04-08-2012, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 67c&ccorv View Post
Mo - "threaded brass"?

Or, threaded bronze?

Big difference...especially in a salt water boat.

When I was researching bronze pipe for my centerboard pennant, I discovered that what often is sold as "red brass" essentially is a breed of bronze. According to what I found, in America, what is sold as "red brass" typically contains 85% copper, 5% tin, 5% lead, and 5% zinc - also known as 85-5-5-5 bronze, which is good for marine applications.

"Yellow brass," on the other hand, is quite a different thing and is not suitable for marine applications.
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Old 04-08-2012, 04:23 PM
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My mistake...bronze. The plug itself is bronze also.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
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Old 04-13-2012, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeRust View Post
When I was researching bronze pipe for my centerboard pennant, I discovered that what often is sold as "red brass" essentially is a breed of bronze. According to what I found, in America, what is sold as "red brass" typically contains 85% copper, 5% tin, 5% lead, and 5% zinc - also known as 85-5-5-5 bronze, which is good for marine applications.

"Yellow brass," on the other hand, is quite a different thing and is not suitable for marine applications.
This is really good to know thanks!
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Old 08-26-2012, 07:18 PM
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I'm repeating a question earlier in the thread that hasn't been addressed. The reason I started this poll was to slide into asking if a system that introduced small amounts of ambient water into the bilge would be a dealbreaker. I'm guessing by the poll results probably not. Already wet bilges account for 86% of the poll responses so what difference does a little more water make?

I'm asking your opinions before investing in a prototype and further testing. A no-go response saves me time and money.
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Old 08-26-2012, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
The reason I started this poll was to slide into asking if a system that introduced small amounts of ambient water into the bilge would be a dealbreaker.
Lemme make sure I'm hearin' you correctly...

You're saying, for a little bit of water in the bilge, I get another Dutton invention for my A4??
I'm in!
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Old 08-26-2012, 08:58 PM
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I've been brainstorming an idea for over a year but in its simplest form small amounts of sea (or lake) water are introduced to the bilge. This would only happen while the boat was being used, not at rest.

I could avoid the added water to the bilge but the complexity ramps up several fold. As much as I'd prefer a dry bilge, the reality is otherwise so I personally have very little grief with adding more, within reason of course. Sound interesting?

I'm not trying to be secretive about it but a working prototype would be nice before throwing it out there. And pictures. Lord knows how the forum likes pictures.

I was curious if there would be any interest before proceeding further and if a wet bilge would drive people off.
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Had my hands in a few others
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Old 08-26-2012, 09:21 PM
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Well, count me in...
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Old 08-27-2012, 10:28 AM
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Neil,
I was getting sea water in the bilge when I first got the boat. It would be a relatively small amount and happened under sail, when the wind was up and strain on the keel.

Turns out that I had to remove the mast (2008) and tighten up the keel bolt that is directly under it...I re-torqued them all. No sealant required because the material C&C used is flexible to a point. Rebuilt the mast step while I was at it.

Never had a problem with that since. Had a water pump leak earlier this year and fixed that in short order.

Rain water (not much) comes down my keel stepped mast and my cooler drains into my bilge...not really in favor of this but it is what it is. I just pour some vinegar in the cooler once in a while and it cleans, deodorizes, cleans the drain line and keeps the bilge clean as well.
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The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
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Old 08-27-2012, 10:39 AM
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Smile

Neil,

Whether water coming in the boat through a keel being a go or no go for purchase.....depends who makes the boat. Would have to research the builder and drawings. Some are easy repairs and some are complete and utter nightmares. I know you of all people know this but for me it would depend on how much it would take to repair it / take play out of it.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
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Old 08-28-2012, 09:57 AM
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Okay, here's what I've been stewing over.

Perhaps the most frequent reminder on the forum is to keep the raw water intake valve closed during hard starting episodes. It's commonly accepted that prolonged cranking without the benefit of exhaust pressure can overwhelm the waterlift and risk backflooding the engine. Boats like the Catalina 30 with a midships engine under the dinette seat have a greater risk with virtually zero hot section rise. A partially filled waterlift and hard port tack can get risky.

What I've been contemplating is an automatic system that drains the waterlift every time the engine is shut down. In it simplest form the waterlift is drained into the bilge, manual override too in the even of malfunction. I've considered additional enhancements that don't involve the bilge but they also add complexity.

This would be one of those hands off, no operator input systems that rides along quietly and does its job.

Input welcomed. 'Are you crazy' is legitimate input too, I'm certainly not emotionally invested in this.
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Had my hands in a few others
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