old boat..new owner..needs tlc..might as well start a thread about it and its A4

[keelcooler]

Shawn,
Next time you go south on 4 to solomons you can drop the alternator off at R&R Auto Electric in upper marlboro. They do good work and know how to spell marine. I have used them for years,410 741 1988.

[sastanley]

keel cooler, thanks. That is about 45 minutes north of the boat, but I will definitely tuck that one away.

There is a Mennonite shop in the area, Wenger's, and all the local auto/machine shops have told me to take it directly there, and let them fix me up. I took a starter to them once, and apparently their alternator guy is equally good.

me at local auto machine shop - "Hi, I have a couple of old alternators here from a boat engine, I am hoping you can help me with them."
machine shop guy - "Yup, I sure can...take them right up to Wenger's up there on Bishop Road".
me - "OK, thanks, I am familiar with them, thought I'd check in here first since I work down the street."
him - "Thanks, I appreciate that, but you'll have much better luck up there at Wenger's."

I would equate this shop to the local shops lat64 & others refer to in town with one-eyed, blind dogs, etc., except the Mennonites are more like the Amish than old city machine shop types. Some of these people don't drive cars or have electricity in their house, but they know electric motors/starters/alternators, etc..

I'll be taking my two alternators up there for a look-see this afternoon.

[sastanley]

The boat went in the water today! FINALLY!

And, the engine ran! Not 100% but it ran!

Here is a quick update on the recent happenings.
Oh, I found that voltage adjustable regulator for the 35A Motorola on the Internet for $23. It arrived today!

Ok, back to the boat.

Last Monday get to the boat...smell fuel..open hatches. Carry on with projects.

Last Tuesday - Climb up into the cockpit..smell fuel with the hatchboards closed...oh darn (that isn't really what I said) - this is not good. Check engine..no leaks...check fuel lines..no leak...check tank..what's this little crusty thing on the bottom of the tank (wipe..) oh darn (not what I said) again...fuel!!!!

So, I had to replace the fuel tank. Fortunately, it was still on the hard. We got all but about 2-3 gallons pumped out using the nifty squeeze bulb, and then pumped the rest out of the bilge, and I replaced the tank this weekend. Hopefully that is the last of the engine saga for now. The only thing left that is original is the coil, and I have a spare one of those!

I am so good I amaze myself sometimes. Well, actually Don is good, because I set the idle screw and the distributor timing to his recommendations over the winter and the damn engine ran really well. I was by myself getting to the dock today, so I couldn't really tune it under way, but back at the dock I spun the idle screw and the distributor while tied up, and their settings were fine. I have a slight hesitation on throttle up, but I'll investigate that later. With a clean prop and clean bottom, she ghosts along at just above idle. I need to get the tach installed this week & the electric to the new instruments so I know what my RPMs are & how fast I am going. I am a little afraid to run her too hard, so I'll probably baby it on our cruise.

The only thing I here is some valves slapping, and a noisy accessory drive..right now no leaks!

Yahoo!!!

[ne57301]

Wohoo!!! Congrats Shawn!!

We went in today too! It's just amazing how much smoother an A4 is than an A3. So far so good, we ran about 2 hours around 1500 RPMs, good power, good oil pressure, couldn't get temp up to 130 so I'm not sure what's going on there. Of course the water here is about 45 so that might have something to so with it, I might take out the restrictor valve in the bypass, too. No leaks!

I didn't retorque but I will. I did change the oil, with the Moyer Oil Change Kit it took about 10 minutes.

Ahhh, what a stress relief.
Randy

[rigspelt]

Wonderful Shawn! Well done.

[sastanley]

The new thermostat setup & bypass worked great here...The motor ran between 140 - 160. The water temp here is in the mid-50's. My tach isn't hooked up yet, & neither are my instruments, but at light cruise (no bow/stern wave, I'd estimate 4 knots) it was 140. When I gave it a little gas and had a stern wave (~5 knots), she jumped to 160 right away. I also found when it was cold this past fall heading for haulout, I could not get the temp up either, but no problem yesterday. I was by myself so I didn't really want to mess with it. I'll have plenty of time for that with our 35 miles runs coming up on the cruise.

I'd still like more oil pressure..at idle she is about 20 PSI...which is more than it had last year (barely above zero). Under way, I am seeing 18-20 right now, and with more RPM the pressure actually drops a little bit, maybe to 16-17. I seem to recall others here with that issue, so I'll have to go dig around.

Now let's hope for good weather next week heading to Baltimore!

edit - also...the adjustable regulator for the Motorola alternator showed up yesterday too...I am going to bolt that on today. It has a tiny little adjustment in it for voltage adjustment. Nice unit! I'll snap some pics.

[P30_889]

Shawn,
Thanks for the offer of assistance earlier. I finally stopped being so selfish and read other people's posts just to catch up. If you ever find your way up Annapolis way, give a shout. I hope to spend some time this week debugging my carry over problems from the valve job of my engine.

David

[sastanley]

Here is a pic from yesterday with the boat in the slip. Everything except the hull needs a lot of cleaning..lots of mildew. Bleach in a spray bottle seems to provide the greatest success.

I need to take a pic of the motor all assembled and in running order as well, right now, my wife has the setees loaded up with cleaning supplies...she's been down in there that last two evenings and has the inside of the boat in pretty good order.

[Mark S]

Shawn,

Looks great! Give us a picture of the engine. What a nice looking location in which to have a slip. I'm envious. At the moment, we are on a temporary in Salem Harbor to which we row and it's a mighty long haul if the wind is against us. Right now I can't imagine anything nicer than an idyllic wooded inlet with a pier from which I can simply step aboard, start the A4, and glide away.

Congrats!

Mark

[sastanley]

It is pretty nice...thanks. It is about a 10 minute motor down to Solomons harbor from the slip. I decided to update my avatar with that shot..yesterday there was a blue heron walking along the shoreline across the creek near the downed tree...a great diversion from all the cleaning my wife & I have been doing.

The guy that owns the house where the boat is has known my Dad for 30+ years & did me the favor of offering me the slip when boat ownership changed.

He actually drug my Dad & the boat off a sandbar back in the 70's. The boat was so new that there was no VHF on board yet to call anyone, so my Dad & his buddies drank all the beer and went to sleep to wait until the tide came up, when the property owner came out to find him, heh-heh!

I will try to snap a pic of the engine today, since this is technically the A-4 forum. I want to install the tach & the new adjustable regulator today also, so I'll have the engine box opened up and can take some updated pics.

[sastanley]

well..back to the alternator shop. I installed the new adjustable regulator and the alternator stopped charging when me & my buddy went to test it.

I have no way to test it, & the Mennonites still have my old alternator. Here is a pic of the setup. I originally found the red wire connected under the diode plate attachment stud on the right side. I moved it out to the hot stud after referencing another thread here I'd printed and taken with me, but neither made any difference..The voltmeter isn't registering anything. We even took the isolator back out and hooked the alternator output directly to the battery, and tried the old regulator again. At least then the meter registered 12.3 volts, which matched the battery voltage with the blower running.

Edit - As usual operator error. When we took the plate off we must have dropped the isolating bushing on the ground post into the bilge. My local alt. guys hooked me up & adjusted the output to my specifications (14.8v) to get 14.1v at the battery. The put the old OEM regulator onto the other alt, so I have a spare too.

[sastanley]

Whew...OK..here is a quick update.

Most of you following this topic probably figured out I was rushing here the last month or so to get the boat ready for a week long cruise.

I am happy to report that we made it back to and from the homeport slip under our own power 99% of the way. The other 1% I'll explain later

Talk about a shakedown cruise. On the first day, the engine purred along beautifully for 75 minutes and proceeded to shut down as if starved for fuel. This led me to troubleshoot the fuel system for most of the week. I ended up removing the squeezy bulb, & cheap 'polishing' filter I'd installed, & moving the Racor filter down the bulkhead to give the mechanical fuel pump an easier pull from the tank. I believe all of these attempts were now unnecessary as none produced a longer running time than 60-90 minutes.

What I believe to be the ultimate fix, is a new coil! When we had a chance in the middle of the cruise, I installed the spare coil in the engine bay, within reach of the wire from the distributor and extended the various wires running to the coil posts to reach from other components just in case. (wiring harness, starter, etc.) Low and behold, out we go in light breeze and the motor runs great at 1,500 RPM (also got the tach installed on the cruise ) for about 65 minutes, and sputters to a stop. In the past, the engine would restart after quitting for increasingly short intervals (5 minutes, 2 minutes, 30 seconds & then would cease to start) - Earlier in the week after it quit, I pulled the wire from the distributor while cranking and got spark, and restarted, but only for a few minutes. I should have been more observant during subsequent shutdowns, but I was too busy getting sails back up to avoid drifting into sandbars. (We did successfully sail into the raft twice, much to my wife's surprise.)

Anyway, this time I immediately switched the coil (pre-lengthening the wires was key to making this a 3 minute job while sailing) - the engine immediately fired and ran for another hour before raising full sail in the freshening breeze. Good thing I picked up a coil (epoxy filled Flamethrower) a few weeks ago and took it with me. It is the only part I did not replace over the winter. I am pretty sure the failing coil was original, it is a Delco-Remy & the bracket is pretty much seized to the rear of the engine.

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it), we had enough wind after the coil switch that we only used it in 5-45 minute chunks the remainder of the cruise, however, it idled smoother and seemed to run a little better & never showed any inclination that it might cease running.

Once I figure out how to post up a video on YouTube, I'll post one I took in the middle of the week (just before the repeated failures and first sail into the raft) with it running pretty hard, no tach yet though, but probably close to 2,000 RPM if I had to guess. It sounded OK, but I heard a couple of loud pops & sputters during this time, and think I might have been floating a valve or something. I'll see if it is audible on the video. Since then (and getting the tach hooked up) I've been careful not to run it over 1,500 RPM. She seems happier there, but it would be nice to get it reliable enough to run harder if I needed it. I'll save that testing for a nice quiet day close to home.

edit - Here is the timeline of events, hopefully in chronological order as I jumped around a bit in my story-telling:

Saturday - motor for 60 minutes, engine dies, sails up..Sail all day to Harness Creek (South River)..motor for 15 minutes into raft..Run engine later for 15 minutes, no problem.

Sunday - Motor out for 30 minutes, sails up, motor off. Sail for a while trying to make Baltimore...25 knots on our nose, drop sails, motor in for 25 minutes into Annapolis with rest of group, no problems on this day (whew, weather was not cooperative, glad the motor was for the short time I used it.)

Monday - Motor for 15 minutes, sails up, motor off. Sail all day, motor on..run hard into wind up channel of Wye River. Runs for ~50 minutes & dies..restarts for 2 mins, dies..restarts for 15 seconds, dies...check for spark, see spark, but will only run for 10-15 seconds..Proximity to land dictates raising of sails...sail into raft. Engine restarts at raft, runs for 5 minutes, no problem.

Tuesday - Motor sail for 75 minutes in light breeze. Engine dies just as we drop sails to enter St. Michael's harbor. Sail back up, sail into raft. Ignore motor, enjoy beverage, plan to work on motor in marina tomorrow.

Wednesday - While shopping for fuel line parts & explaining ordeal old guy at prop shop suspects coil, (with three dogs running the place, Russ!). Return to boat and decide to mount spare coil, extend wires, but still remove Fram polish filter & squeezy bulb...Runs OK in marina slip for a minute or so. Go to dinner with friends.

Thursday - Fires up, leave slip, dies, drift into mud. Towed to fuel dock, turn fuel supply back on (see 1% below), fires up, buy fuel, head out. Runs for 60 minutes at 1,400 RPM, dies. Switch over coil, starts up, runs for 60 additional minutes prior to raising sails. Sail remainder of day to Oxford. Drop sails outside Town Creek, motor runs fine into raft (15 minutes, max.)

Friday - Sit on hook, no motor! (worked on sails that ripped on Thursday & head that had a leaky joker valve!)

Saturday - Sail to Little Choptank, sail repairs hold. Engine runs for 90 minutes leaving Oxford (raised sails, motor off), & 5 minutes arriving in Hudson Creek.

Sunday - Motor sail for 60 minutes, engine runs great at 1,500 RPM. Motor off, sail all day..Run engine into home port for 15 minutes, no problems. See Blue Angels as we sail into Patuxent River!

Ok, so not so quick an update. but there you go. Oh, I sprung a little leak in the grease cup attachment too, which dripped water from about Wednesday on, so I have something to call Ken about as well - how often are you supposed to twist that thing?

Oh, the 1% of not-under-our-own-power was when I forgot to open the fuel tank shutoff after removing all the extra stuff (bulb/filter) from the line the day before. It started up, backed us out of the slip, and died. A buddy on the cruise towed us to the fuel dock (we had drifted into shallow water with no wind and bumped the bottom outside the marina slip) and once tied up to the fuel dock I proceeded with troubleshooting. A few minutes into it I exclaimed to my wife, "I bet some dummy (me) forgot to open the fuel line after all that work we did yesterday", & sure enough that proved the initial culprit. About 15 seconds of cranking primed the line and off we went. I even bought 4 gallons of fuel from the marina since they let me tie up for 20 minutes to figure out my issue. - Incidentally, the fuel starved die-off sounded eerily similar to the coil die off..I would expect a coil failure to simply sound like someone cut off the ignition switch, which is primarily why I kept troubleshooting fuel all week, the system I'd done the most work on over the winter.

[sastanley]

I snagged this frame (the 2nd one!) out of the MOV file my camera made when I thought it was running well and decided to make a movie. It just so happens that during my 45 second video, she made a large popping sound near the end. I think it may have floated a valve?? but I dunno for sure. Also, since I am an amateur, I couldn't keep my mouth shut or hold the camera still and then immediately put the camera down to start investigating the noise. About 10 minutes later, she quit. This is the hardest I had the engine running (no tach yet), but I suspect in the 2,000 RPM range. I'll get more pics after the additional work I did during the week too.

So, if the coil was getting hot and weakening, could that cause a misfire and then a valve slap problem at 2,000+ RPM? Am I using the right terms?

edit - so I found a pic from earlier in this thread..can you believe this is what we started with last fall?

[sastanley]

OK, let's try this. Now that I think I have figured this out, I'll try to get a better video in the future with better audio, etc.

As I listen to it a couple of times, I also hope I have it running better now than it was in this video..I can hear it missing a little bit after a listen or two.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9TC57vwHB0

[keelcooler]

You lying sack of bilge scum,no way that's the same motor.That engine is from Don's stable and you paid extra so he wouldn't rat you out.Anyway good job,that's the way to do it.Your dad is smiling with approval and by the way,he wants his boat back.

[sastanley]

haha...I'll take that as a compliment keelcooler

My Dad hasn't seen the boat yet since it splashed. (that I am aware of.) He certainly hasn't seen the inside improvements to the auxiliary drive, unless he's found this thread on the Internet.

[sastanley]

Woo hoo!

OK...went out today for Father's Day and the engine ran flawlessly! When we needed to rely on it, we could, and when we didn't we were sailing.

Took my daughter (her 18th birthday today) and my wife out to lunch, via the boat, and had a a great day.

I'll head back over tomorrow or later this week I hope and give her another MMO treatment. I think a few more of those after each use, and then an occasional one here and there will be good!

I think I am starting to get barnacles on the prop (boat in the water for 7 weeks), because she is a little rough (cavitating maybe?) above 2,000 RPM, but she loves to run about 1,700 as the cruising speed. In flat water that seems about 5.5 knots, but that is a guess because I am also lazy and didn't pull the speedo paddle wheel, so it was fouled.

Ah, it is nice to have a good running engine! We cruised up and down the creek beautifully today!

[roadnsky]

Gotta love that IRON A4 SAIL!

Had a similar warm and fuzzy A4 success story today.
Out with the son doing the Father's Day sail. Good times, great day.
On the way back at dusk, the wind swung around and kicked way up. (gusts to 40) Between the wind and heavy chop it was time for some A4 assistance. Fired her up and throttled to 1900. Punched right thru every wave smooth and steady.

Such a comforting feeling to have that engine in reserve...

(PS - Rules question: Since this is Shawn's thread and he switched the topic, am I really hijacking?)

[rigspelt]

Originally Posted by sastanley

Woo hoo! Ah, it is nice to have a good running engine! We cruised up and down the creek beautifully today!

Well deserved glow, Shawn!

[sastanley]

Jerry, No problem...

I think that the beauty of Internet forums is hijacking is almost expected. I sorta had two threads running about the motor..this topic was more of a general comment thread where I introduced myself to the other A-4 owners, and then I just started to ramble and post pictures and progress about general engine stuff.

The 2nd thread I'd started, she's running, help..., was more specific about it running poorly because it was getting hard to get specific questions answered in this long-in-the-tooth thread...mostly, I think that is because I'd rambled on about so many different subjects myself in this topic. I check this forum almost every day (usually more than once a day ), so it is easy for me to keep up. The 'new posts' feature is a great way to follow stuff at the top that is getting attention from other forum members. I've also noticed that it seems the longer/older a particular topic gets, the less activity & replies it also sees (maybe there is too much to read if you haven't already been keeping up almost post by post??)

So, technically, I probably should have posted these Father's Day comments in the other thread and it would have been a good way to close out the other thread, and then let it drift off to the archives...I've decided to clean the prop here in the next week or two and see if that solves the 'cavitating above 2,000 RPM' issue I noticed yesterday, and then post the results in the other thread, and that should be a good 'full-circle' closing to let the other thread drift off. What I'll probably do with this thread is every few weeks, I'll post continued progress on the never-ending resurrection of this motor.

So, today, here is the short list for after work: (I'll keep it to motor subjects..I am also working on the holding tank & fresh water tank, but that is for another forum)
-- Shorten & clean up the runs on various engine hoses (I'd guessed on lengths before anti-siphon loops were in place, pumps & fittings mounted, etc..)
-- Fix the leak (I see green deposits!!) in the 'bypass kit', the brass tubing between the ball valve & thermo housing. I guess I need 1/2 more turn!
-- I need to remove the alternator and inspect the wear the alternator belt has caused to the water-pump-to-side-plate-tee-fitting hose from slapping around on the non-loaded side of the pulley. I tightened the belt some more before this weekend. This will also mean I need to remove the alternator for better access, so I can kill two birds with one stone when I try to shim the alt. on re-installation to reduce the belt dust I am seeing..I must have the alignment wrong. I think it is too close to the distributor and needs to move forward a little bit to line up with the accessory drive a little better. I added a washer last week, I guess I need another one or two. - if anyone has an idea for how do to that, I am all ears! - Can I bend the mounting 'ears' on the alternator bracket forward a little bit? Didn't rigspelt have this problem? He has always been about three a weeks ahead of me on these issues...let me go search thru some of his threads!

[rigspelt]

Originally Posted by sastanley

Can I bend the mounting 'ears' on the alternator bracket forward a little bit?

Yes, when I was contemplating modifying the mounting bracket, Don suggested just tweaking the ears with a big wrench. I ended up cutting and welding, and using washers to get the right alignment (I hope).

[sastanley]

Thanks Rigs... I think since the tension bolt only went thru one side of the alternator easily, that I probably had it the wrong way..after a few hours of running, it now doesn't look right upon non-running inspection. I have the old, original side-plate & alternator tensioning bracket, which means the bracket is separate from the side plate, so I can move it around when the side-plate bolt is loose to align it. Tonight, I cleaned up the threads on the alternator itself so that I can get the tension bolt thru from either side. There is just enough play on the mounting bracket (pivot) that I can get a washer or two in there to shim it a little bit for fine tune alignment. I am hoping to not see any more belt residue after this exercise. It is too close to the aft block drain and the distributor for my comfort, as well as the now worn out belt slapping the cooling line.

I will start with a new belt & try to line everything up. Since the motor is running, now, it is nice to be able to tweak these types of things to improve performance, instead of fighting to just keep it running. Incidentally, I dunno how much a Gates belt costs, but Napa belts are made by Gates, you just add a '25' in front of the Gates number for the Napa belt..It was $11 at my local Napa. Maybe everyone else already knew this The off-brand spare I got at Advance Auto is a little bit short & put the alternator dangerously close to the distributor...

I also brought home the brass pieces between the side plate and thermo housing, cleaned them up and re-assembled with teflon tape on the workbench, so I am pretty sure I got them one turn tighter than they were before...hopefully this will eliminate the leak

[lat 64]

Just wanted to say "nice work" on the engine. It does look like you just paid a profesional!

I thought about all those things that one has to get in the habit of doing to operate a new toy. (Like turning on the fuel.) and realized that Knowledge really is power.

Good on ya,

Russ

[sastanley]

Thanks Russ!
She is still an old engine, but a little cleaning and scraping and sanding and a fresh coat of paint does wonders (like letting you see belt residue & water leaks) - She still hesitates a little on throttle up, and I am still hesitant and apprehensive about things like leaving the slip or a dock worrying she might stall out on me (kinda like rolling into the middle of an intersection at 5MPH after the motor coughs on you.)

But, it has been a great experience so far, and now I feel like I know the motor pretty well. Diagnosing problems are becoming easier as I fix more & more things. The first few times we went out, I pretty much ran the motor with the cover off in case something failed. This past weekend, I didn't take the bench cushion or cover off once, and I even stopped fretting over constantly staring at the gauges after it was running for 15 minutes

I was thinking about the fuel thing last night, from the other thread, as I was bent over the motor yanking parts and making a general mess. I think I am simply going to add the "turn off fuel supply at tank" to my list of things to do. I already bend over the other side of the galley and close the thru-hull fittings..there is no real big deal with spinning around and pulling one drawer to flip the fuel shut-off. I can tell you from experience that a few gallons of fuel in the bilge is a giant P.I.T.A., and EVERYTHING smells until ALL of it is removed , and you can't just pump it overboard either

Maybe one of these days I will locate a bulkhead mountable fuel-cutoff and put it in the engine compartment next to the Racor filter, which is right next to the two regularly operated seacocks & more convenient.

[Mark S]

The fuel thing . . .

When we bought the boat last year, I saw the petcock in the fuel line but it appeared as though the PO never turned it off, so I didn't either. Then, in the fall on the jackstands, my wife said she thought she smelled gasoline when we went aboard to winterize. I didn't smell anything unusual and I never did find any fuel leakage. Nevertheless, I thereafter made it part of my end-of-the-day routine to turn off the petcock, even though it's inconveniently located on a bulkhead under the bridge deck and I have to go past the trash basket to get to it.

We're trying to start a rhyme for the entire routine: "Seacock, petcock, batten down the hatches . . ."

Mark S