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Old 03-31-2014, 02:16 PM
northernlight northernlight is offline
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Sleeving cylinder

Hi all, I am in the process of a tear down and rebuild of an early model A4 out of a tartan 27 I had bought last season. Turns out the engine had a broken crank. All cylinders had scoring and they were already bored .20 over, I went the route of getting new sleeves to be installed. The block is at the machine shop ATM and they called the other day to let me know he would have to deck the block mating surface down 10 thou. He asked me if this would cause any issues.I told him I would get back to him. So if anyone can enlighten me as to if this is a problem and if this is standard procedure, I would like to start ordering parts but i would like to know everything will work out installing sleeves first. Thanks!
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Old 03-31-2014, 08:20 PM
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Your decision to re-sleeve is a good one; .020" over is max and if raw water cooled highly questionable. I hope you are planning FWC. I have never had a block taken down .010" to re-surface but if there is some distortion it is probably a good idea. Of course you are going to get a bit more compression but it should be ok. Be sure to use 2 head gaskets as recommended. I hope you are dealing with a good machine shop; this is serious stuff. Keep us posted and we do love pictures.
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Old 03-31-2014, 09:25 PM
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You will need to probably have to touch up the valve seats.
As the seat margin is right at the top of block and as you cut the block down you will be cutting into the seats.
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Old 03-31-2014, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Ball Racing View Post
You will need to probably have to touch up the valve seats.
As the seat margin is right at the top of block and as you cut the block down you will be cutting into the seats.
That is an excellent point; the valve seats are indeed close to the deck but I do think you can get away with .010". Still, it would be a good idea to ask Don Moyer about this before proceeding because if this has been done to any extent he would know about it.
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Old 04-01-2014, 07:02 AM
northernlight northernlight is offline
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The boat has always been in fresh water as far as I know, first on lake Michigan and now lake Winnipeg. good point about valve seats I hadn't thought of this, sorry to anyone who replied in the other thread, as I double posted by accident and deleted the other thread, oops!
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Old 04-01-2014, 08:46 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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northernlight, sleeving and decking are good if they do not take to much material. The raise in compression is minimal as you are only gaining the displacement of the piston travel for the material removed. The plus is the compression goes up and the breathing room in the head is not changed for the improvement. If you are a direct drive the single gasket after the deck trim may be a bit of a plus for performance.

The shop may want to install hardened seats instead of just recutting the seats. Either is fine as the seats in these A-4's are fine without the leaded fuel. I'd go with the cheaper of the two and not look back.

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Old 04-01-2014, 11:30 AM
northernlight northernlight is offline
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The machine shop had never recommended or even talked about grinding valve seats, I will have to chat with them about this, I was planing on using 2 head gaskets. Before the block went to the shop I had lapped the valves and did a leak test with kerosene in the exhaust and intake ports, which held the fluid overnight with a little bit of leakage but not too bad.
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Old 04-16-2014, 07:21 PM
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Engine is back from the machine shop, here's a few pics. he left a bit of a shelf for the sleeves to sit on when boring, pressed in sleeves and machined the mating surface down .007. The sleeves are not honed yet as he didn't have the right size hone, he left .005 to account for honing. Next step ordering parts.
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Old 04-16-2014, 07:24 PM
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oops don't know why the pics are gigantic.
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Old 04-16-2014, 08:06 PM
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Looks good.

Looks good! I held the control button on the keyboard and tapped the - button a few times to see the pics. Good for you and good luck with the rest of it.
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Old 04-16-2014, 10:17 PM
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Fresh Water Cooled (FWC)

I'm learning a lot about the sleeving aspect from all of you, but maybe how the engine is to be cooled, as Hanley asked, is still not clear. Northern Lights mentioned the boat has always been in fresh water (as opposed to salt water). But was the engine "raw water cooled" even in fresh water and is the intent to convert to a closed water-cooled method for the engine with a heat exchanger that will be cooled using the water from the pond the boat sails in? The intent being essentially stopping further degradation of the exterior of the cylinder walls where they make contact with the water used to cool them. Just curious.
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Old 04-17-2014, 01:30 AM
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I assume (and hope) you are going to have a pro hone these bores to fit the new pistons. Is that correct?
The Machinist sent it home with you. Was he thinking you will hone to fit?
.005" will take a bit of time and muscle if you are experienced, but much frustration if you have never done it. This is not just breaking glaze on a road-commision rebuild, it is the final step in machining new cylinder bores.

Is there a second machinist to do the rest of the work?

Russ
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Old 04-17-2014, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lat 64 View Post
I assume (and hope) you are going to have a pro hone these bores to fit the new pistons. Is that correct?
The Machinist sent it home with you. Was he thinking you will hone to fit?
.005" will take a bit of time and muscle if you are experienced, but much frustration if you have never done it. This is not just breaking glaze on a road-commision rebuild, it is the final step in machining new cylinder bores.

Is there a second machinist to do the rest of the work?

Russ
+1 on that. Most unusual...by all means take the block and pistons to a shop to be fitted.
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Old 04-17-2014, 11:52 AM
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cracks

Northernlight,

Ask the old machinist why he did not address the cracks in the headbolt holes at the side of block(top of photo).

Ask the new machinist to give a complete assessment of all the work needed to do a proper job of rebuilding.
Some shops will only do what you ask, and if you don't ask, they don't tell. Was he grumpy?
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Last edited by lat 64; 04-17-2014 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 04-17-2014, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lat 64 View Post

Ask the old machinist why he did not address the cracks in the headbolt holes at the side of block(top of photo).
dude! good eye. Pretty obvious now you mention it.
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Old 04-18-2014, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Worrell View Post
I'm learning a lot about the sleeving aspect from all of you, but maybe how the engine is to be cooled, as Hanley asked, is still not clear. Northern Lights mentioned the boat has always been in fresh water (as opposed to salt water). But was the engine "raw water cooled" even in fresh water and is the intent to convert to a closed water-cooled method for the engine with a heat exchanger that will be cooled using the water from the pond the boat sails in? The intent being essentially stopping further degradation of the exterior of the cylinder walls where they make contact with the water used to cool them. Just curious.
Rod, In my opinion, you are absolutely spot-on in your assessment of the advantages of FWC (closed loop) vs. RWC. A lake cooled boat is still RWC'd if there is no HX.

For a lot of years, if you didn't have access to the flywheel to add a pulley for a pump, the way the Moyer FWC system works, you were SOL for FWC options.
Some years ago, Indigo came up with a bracket to jam a 2nd pump in between the accessory drive & alternator. This has been great for folks like me with no access to the flywheel, but some worry about the additional strain on the accessory drive bearing.
Now, there are lots of magnet driven 12v circulation pumps that can take 200°F+ temperatures. I think we can thank mainly the more complex cooling systems in cars, which now often have either a primary or secondary electric pump in the antifreeze loop. The availability of these pumps has opened up an entire new set of options for folks with access problems related to the flywheel or accessory drive. I have a Johnson CM-30, about the size of one of those skinny cans of V-8 or orange juice, that circulates the antifreeze in my A-4 like a dream.
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Old 04-18-2014, 02:27 PM
northernlight northernlight is offline
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I had a lot of trouble finding a automotive machinist who could do the work, everywhere I had phoned could not do a 2.562 bore, said they didn't have a cutter head that small. The shop I took it to was recommended to me and they were more of a industrial shop but assured me they could get them done, he did not have the proper size hone although so I was planning on taking it to another shop for the honing. I had found a guy who can do it, but explained he would not touch it till he has pistons in hand, I placed as order yesterday with MMI , Lat 64 thank you good eye, I had not even seen this, so what does this fracture mean , am I in trouble with this now?
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Old 04-18-2014, 02:43 PM
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Those cracks (3 of them) are a little disturbing and the machinist should have had a comment about them. They are not necessarily a game killer but they need to be addressed. This is a case where the JB Weld may be a good step before the head is installed, in addition to the usual Permatex #2 treatment of the threads.It might be a good idea to squeeze some JB into the crack from the passage side and install the stud with the Permatex in one step. This block has clearly suffered a freezing event. FWC engines don't worry about freezing, and I've never known one to need re-sleeving. BTW, don't let the "fresh water" thingy get you too comfortable; it ain't as "fresh" as you think and it can freeze big time.
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Old 04-18-2014, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northernlight View Post
I had a lot of trouble finding a automotive machinist who could do the work, everywhere I had phoned could not do a 2.562 bore, said they didn't have a cutter head that small. The shop I took it to was recommended to me and they were more of a industrial shop but assured me they could get them done, he did not have the proper size hone although so I was planning on taking it to another shop for the honing. I had found a guy who can do it, but explained he would not touch it till he has pistons in hand, I placed as order yesterday with MMI , Lat 64 thank you good eye, I had not even seen this, so what does this fracture mean , am I in trouble with this now?
The machinist was correct - the pistons must be in hand for a quality fitting.
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Old 04-18-2014, 02:56 PM
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I am wondering if I caused the cracks when using a impact gun to remove the head studs, they were very stuck, I used a welder to weld a nut on the stud then break them loose with the impact. I am not a experienced engine builder by any means, do you think the jb weld would actually work its way into the crack? what are the worries of this type of fracture? what harm can this do?
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Old 04-18-2014, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northernlight View Post
I am wondering if I caused the cracks when using a impact gun to remove the head studs, they were very stuck, I used a welder to weld a nut on the stud then break them loose with the impact. I am not a experienced engine builder by any means, do you think the jb weld would actually work its way into the crack? what are the worries of this type of fracture? what harm can this do?
Using an impact gun on head bolts/studs is indeed a bit much but unlikely to be the cause of the cracks; I was apprenticed (12 yrs old) to a mechanic who used one to do Cadillac heads! TheJB can be worked into the crack from the side using clever tools in the same way we used to do wheel bearings in the olden days. The leak is not likely to occur where the head meets the block but rather where the crack connects to the stud threads in the block; the leak then proceeds up the threads to the surface of the head and out from under the head nut (or even up thru the fine threads on the stud). JB Weld has been demonstrated to do some remarkable things on this forum. See member Butch Petty and the S/V Anole.

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Old 04-18-2014, 04:50 PM
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ok thanks hanleyclifford for the optimism, any tips on clever tools how we used to do wheel bearings in the old days? any ideas are welcome, I am spending a lot on this engine don't want it to go crap, reason for rebuild was broken crank so replacing a lot of parts here.
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Old 04-18-2014, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by northernlight View Post
ok thanks hanleyclifford for the optimism, any tips on clever tools how we used to do wheel bearings in the old days? any ideas are welcome, I am spending a lot on this engine don't want it to go crap, reason for rebuild was broken crank so replacing a lot of parts here.
Packing wheel bearings in the old days meant holding the bearing assembly in one hand and forcing grease into the roller cage in one direction only until the grease oozed out the other side thus ensuring the cage was fully packed with no air pockets. Applying the principle here means forcing the JB Weld into the crack from the coolant passage side towards the threaded stud hole side until the JB is seen entering the threads. Start by thoroughly cleaning the passage and dressing the crack with a small rat tail file. Wash the area with acetone. Then using split popsickle sticks or other similar tool lower the JB into the passage in small globs and press into the crack. Repeat until the JB can be seen down the stud hole which should be chased first with a tap (3/8"-16) and cleared of contaminants. If a little JB rises to the surface plane leave it alone and fair the block after the stuff has set. Personally, I would install the stud with the Permatex #2 right after the JB and let it all get tight simultaneously. There is no spec on the stud but a moderate tweak with a vice grips has always worked well for me. Don't worry if you lose a little JB into the cooling jacket; it will flush thru in due course.
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Old 04-18-2014, 05:21 PM
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I pack wheel bearing by putting grease in my palm and running the bearing over my palm. Works well. I still do this. how else does one do it? I have seem the air bearing packers, dont like them.
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Old 04-18-2014, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by romantic comedy View Post
I pack wheel bearing by putting grease in my palm and running the bearing over my palm. Works well. I still do this. how else does one do it? I have seem the air bearing packers, dont like them.
Many vehicles now use sealed bearings. I think old the palm and fingers method may die out with us.
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