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  #1   IP: 174.127.185.91
Old 09-05-2015, 03:32 PM
mrhoneydew mrhoneydew is offline
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Help... Electrical issue... engine is dead.

I am a bit stumped...

Backstory:

When I bought my '69 Columbia 28 the Atomic 4 was dead. Over time I resurrected it and it was running ok. Out for the first test run I overheated it and it died... it has a freshwater system that I didn't have enough fluid in. Oops.

So when I finally got around to trying to start it again it is now dead. It would crank over initially but now it's just dead. I tested both batteries and they register just over 12 volts (I thought they might be dead because my bilge switch had been accidentally switched on for I don't know how long). The electric fuel pump wasn't priming when I turned on the key and I thought maybe I had blown the oil pressure safety switch. I put a new switch in, but nothing. The fuel pump still doesn't make a sound. Turning on the ignition, none of the gauges register and the starter only randomly clicks once in a while. What would be the best course of action? Maybe test the coil to see if I fried it when I overheated it? Still doesn't explain it not cranking over or the gauges not registering when I turn on the ignition switch. Could the ignition switch be shot? I guess I could jump it between the contacts and see if it will engage the starter? I am kind of at a loss as to how to proceed to troubleshoot this. I think the engine is fine and I am just having an electrical issue.
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Old 09-05-2015, 04:04 PM
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Sounds to me like the batteries are not giving you enough juice. That's where I would start.
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Old 09-05-2015, 04:04 PM
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OK, one thing at a time and let's try to avoid guessing. I'd start with the voltage source and follow it along.

The first test I would make is battery voltage while trying to start. This will tell us the condition of your batteries and/or high amperage wiring. With a voltmeter on the battery posts have a helper try to start. Read the voltage during the start attempt and report back. If it goes to zero, the wiring is intact and the battery is flat. If it stays the same there is a wiring problem.

Your reported battery voltage at rest indicates your battery is between 20% and 40% state of charge or in other words, low. The electric fuel pump should make no noise (not operate) when the key is turned on. Only when the oil pressure rises above ~6 PSI will the oil pressure safety switch close and deliver power to the pump so no worries about the fuel pump or its circuitry just yet.
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  #4   IP: 70.199.177.59
Old 09-05-2015, 04:25 PM
mrhoneydew mrhoneydew is offline
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I was afraid the batteries might be low. I'll test while trying to start it. As for the fuel pump... when I would start the engine before it would run very briefly when I first turned on the key. I assume it is supposed to do that to ensure that the carb is getting fuel when it needs it? And before this current issue of it not doing anything when I turn on the key the fuel pump didn't appear to be kicking on at all. I guess as long as the carb is full the float is closing off the fuel supply so it isn't requiring fuel, thus the fuel pump doesn't need to kick on.

By the way, I have a (low amp) battery charger in the system to keep the house lights going and they are working fine. Am I correct in assuming that they draw so little that even if the batteries are low on juice there would be no noticeable effect? What the problem could be us cranking amps? If the bilge pump had been running long enough to sap the batteries wouldn't the charger be able to bring them back up over time? (I think it's a 5amp.) that happened a week ago so there should have been plenty of time to recharge the batteries.

Everyone is gone for the holiday weekend so I might just pull the starting battery and take it in to have it bench tested.

Thank you for the replies. I will report back after I get down to the boat.
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Old 09-05-2015, 04:45 PM
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Yeah, lighting and starting are two very different loads. Your lighting may draw a few amps, starting draws 130 amps so no way your polite little charger will keep up. As for your previous fuel pump behavior, it depends on how your pump is wired. You are correct however, there is enough residual fuel in the carburetor bowl to start and run the engine at idle for a minute or more.

The battery may not recover from this either.

Be prepared for multiple issues too. We will follow where the testing leads. I hope dead batteries is all it is but there are no guarantees. Also, be very careful about switching off the ignition after a no-start attempt. This is when it happens most often, 'it' being leaving the ignition on with the engine not running. It's a death sentence to a coil.
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Last edited by ndutton; 09-05-2015 at 06:48 PM. Reason: Fixed a spelling error. We saw what happened last time.
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  #6   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 09-05-2015, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhoneydew View Post
I was afraid the batteries might be low. I'll test while trying to start it. As for the fuel pump... when I would start the engine before it would run very briefly when I first turned on the key. I assume it is supposed to do that to ensure that the carb is getting fuel when it needs it? And before this current issue of it not doing anything when I turn on the key the fuel pump didn't appear to be kicking on at all. I guess as long as the carb is full the float is closing off the fuel supply so it isn't requiring fuel, thus the fuel pump doesn't need to kick on.

By the way, I have a (low amp) battery charger in the system to keep the house lights going and they are working fine. Am I correct in assuming that they draw so little that even if the batteries are low on juice there would be no noticeable effect? What the problem could be us cranking amps? If the bilge pump had been running long enough to sap the batteries wouldn't the charger be able to bring them back up over time? (I think it's a 5amp.) that happened a week ago so there should have been plenty of time to recharge the batteries.

Everyone is gone for the holiday weekend so I might just pull the starting battery and take it in to have it bench tested.

Thank you for the replies. I will report back after I get down to the boat.
Before pulling anything out of the boat I suggest you inspect the negative path back to the battery starting with the engine block and working back to the battery.
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Old 09-05-2015, 10:25 PM
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Putting the charger on the house battery may not pass through to the start battery - depends on your boat. Many of us have gone away from the old 2 battery system with the A/B switch to dedicated house and start batteries. Recommend you connect your charger directly to the posts of the start battery and make sure the voltage comes up with your meter. You'll want to hold 14 volts for an hour for a full charge. Does the boat have an ammeter? Knowing volts and amps is important electrical info.
A 5 amp charger sounds a bit anemic - suggest you shop for at least a 10 amp, 3 stage charger.
Suggest we do this in stages - a) charge the battery, b) get the starter spinning the motor, then c) get the beast running. One step at a time - faster than that and I fall over my feet!
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Old 09-06-2015, 12:09 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Standard Warning

Keep the valve to the raw water pump closed until the engine straits.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 09-06-2015, 05:34 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
OK, one thing at a time and let's try to avoid guessing. I'd start with the voltage source and follow it along.
The first test I would make is battery voltage while trying to start. This will tell us the condition of your batteries and/or high amperage wiring. With a voltmeter on the battery posts have a helper try to start. Read the voltage during the start attempt and report back. If it goes to zero, the wiring is intact and the battery is flat. If it stays the same there is a wiring problem.
+1
Get a fully charged battery that you know is good and check the end connectors of all the big wires, ground and hot side, to see if they are bright and shiny and not corroded. We'll go from there.

TRUE GRIT
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  #10   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 09-06-2015, 06:07 PM
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Thumbs up

Thanks John. Been trying to make the case for a while that guessing isn't troubleshooting. Sometimes the guessers get lucky and hit on the problem quickly, sometimes not. Taking logical steps will get you to the problem directly and hopefully avoid throwing a bunch of parts at it. It will make you a better troubleshooter too, including areas outside electrical. It's a mindset.

This weekend I was sharing an experience with another member about an electrical problem a new customer had for 20 years. She's had no less than three electricians try to fix it without success. I took a logical approach, had it repaired in 10 minutes. That's not an exaggeration, it was literally 10 minutes.

In the example, recognize that there is a big difference between electricians and troubleshooting electricians.
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Old 09-06-2015, 06:51 PM
mrhoneydew mrhoneydew is offline
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Thank you everyone for your comments. I don't have an ammeter, but I did test the batteries again and honestly I don't believe they are the problem. I can go through a few other things on the list until I can get someone there to turn the key while I put the meter on them again. I have an idea I smoked my coil, though. Not only can that happen when you overheat, but I left the key on for a few days before I noticed it. Oops. That's a cheap replacement and if my old one isn't bad then I'll at least have a spare. I'll report back once I make it back down to the boat and can go through things step by step.
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Old 09-06-2015, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhoneydew View Post
Thank you everyone for your comments. I don't have an ammeter, but I did test the batteries again and honestly I don't believe they are the problem. I can go through a few other things on the list until I can get someone there to turn the key while I put the meter on them again. I have an idea I smoked my coil, though. Not only can that happen when you overheat, but I left the key on for a few days before I noticed it. Oops. That's a cheap replacement and if my old one isn't bad then I'll at least have a spare. I'll report back once I make it back down to the boat and can go through things step by step.
Leaving the key on for a few days keeping the coil connected should be sufficient to fry the coil - but that's only a guess.
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  #13   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 09-06-2015, 07:52 PM
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Testing a battery is best done with a load tester. A battery can show fully charged on a voltmeter (12.6 - 12.7 volts) but not really be "charged". I keep one of these on board - eliminates the "guess work".

Last edited by hanleyclifford; 07-13-2016 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 09-06-2015, 09:02 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhoneydew View Post
I have an idea I smoked my coil, though. Not only can that happen when you overheat, but I left the key on for a few days before I noticed it. Oops. That's a cheap replacement and if my old one isn't bad then I'll at least have a spare.
We're still a bit all over the map here. Get the engine to turn over. Then we can tell you how to test the coil. If you left the key on and the points\EI were open the coil will be OK.
Remember what Neil said about shotgun parts replacement. It's usually a waste of time and money.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 09-06-2015, 09:30 PM
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Smile Coil Cuisine

Hmmm. Let's consider the odds. If you are running points in a Delco at 32 degrees of dwell (middle of the range), that's 128 degrees down out of 360 or about 36% - leaves 2 shots out of 3 the points were open - not bad odds for a gambling man. OTOH with EI at 55 degrees, that's 220 degrees down out of 360 or about 61% - now it's 2:1 for the House. So you have to ask yourself one question----do you feel lucky?
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Old 09-06-2015, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
Remember what Neil said about shotgun parts replacement. It's usually a waste of time and money.
a.k.a. parts therapy
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Old 09-08-2015, 03:50 PM
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Now we're getting somewhere...

Ok... so I went back to square one and put everything back the way it was. I have no earthly idea why it's turning over now, but I don't believe the batteries are the problem. Anyway, I pulled a spark plug and cranked it over. No spark. Put it back. Pulled the coil wire loose from the distributor and couldn't get it to arc. Is there a better method to test the coil?
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Old 09-08-2015, 04:16 PM
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhoneydew View Post
Ok... so I went back to square one and put everything back the way it was. I have no earthly idea why it's turning over now, but I don't believe the batteries are the problem. Anyway, I pulled a spark plug and cranked it over. No spark. Put it back. Pulled the coil wire loose from the distributor and couldn't get it to arc. Is there a better method to test the coil?
Try putting an ohmmeter across the terminals and tell us what you read. (No guessing, no shooting...)

Last edited by hanleyclifford; 09-08-2015 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 09-08-2015, 05:07 PM
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Next...

Well... not being impatient... I just have limited time to get to the boat and work on it. I had purchased a new coil in April and it was still under warranty. So just went and got a new one. Some success! I can spray starting fluid into the carb and get it to run on that but it won't stay running. So now I have to determine if the fuel pump is pumping fuel to the carb.
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Old 09-08-2015, 05:16 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Oh, I Do

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhoneydew View Post
I went back to square one and put everything back the way it was. I have no earthly idea why it's turning over now,
Loose wire somewhere, funky key (or switch \push button).
Take the wire off the "S" terminal on the solenoid (maybe a red-yellow wire) from the key and put a volt meter on it, the other lead to ground. Turn the key to the start position* and see if you can read 12 volts. If you can read 12 volts shake the wire around while you are watching the meter.
Careful about having the coil energized while you do this. If the coil is energized when the engine isn't running it will fry - unless it is fried already that is. Disconnecting the wire at coil + from the switch will keep the coil from frying while you test.

TRUE GRIT

*Edit: It would be easier to run a wire from a known hot source to the terminal on the key than to twist the key.

Last edited by JOHN COOKSON; 09-08-2015 at 08:56 PM.
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Old 09-08-2015, 08:02 PM
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhoneydew View Post
Well... not being impatient... I just have limited time to get to the boat and work on it. I had purchased a new coil in April and it was still under warranty. So just went and got a new one. Some success! I can spray starting fluid into the carb and get it to run on that but it won't stay running. So now I have to determine if the fuel pump is pumping fuel to the carb.
It would seem this thread has now morphed to a fuel issue (at least for the moment). You can save a lot of time by installing a low range fuel pressure gauge right at the carb.
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Old 09-09-2015, 09:35 AM
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Yes, it seems as though the electrical issue is basically solved. I may have a loose wire or something in the ignition system and I will check that over. For now I have a fuel issue, but I have dealt with that before and it's a much easier thing.

I do have a problem with the thing running under load, but once I get it running smoothly again I will re-post. It will idle and throttle up all day long in neutral, but once in gear it just wants to die and I have to give it juice and monitor the throttle to keep it going. I rebuilt the carb and I suspect my air/fuel mix needs to be dialed in. But... that is an issue for another day.

Thanks everybody for the responses on my electrical issue.
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Old 09-09-2015, 10:56 AM
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Thriving in neutral but failing in gear can be:
* Carb settings/cleanliness
* Exhaust blockage
* Crossed spark plug wires
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Old 09-09-2015, 11:27 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhoneydew View Post
I rebuilt the carb and I suspect my air/fuel mix needs to be dialed in. But... that is an issue for another day.
.
Dial in the easy stuff first such as being sure the choke is all the way open when you think it is.
The rather strange thing is too rich and too lean will give the same symptoms.
A couple of simple tests will help differentiate. Try closing the choke a bit while the engine is running. If performance improves you're too lean. After idling in neutrial for a while rev the engine up a bit and see if it "unloads". Look for smoke out the exhaust and smoother running as the excess fuel is burned off.

TRUE GRIT
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