Short? Or bad component preventing engine from shutting off?

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  • ILikeRust
    Afourian MVP
    • Sep 2010
    • 2198

    Short? Or bad component preventing engine from shutting off?

    Some people have trouble getting their engine to run or keeping it running. I have the opposite problem - getting it to shut down.

    I have what I was told is a 1983 Atomic 4 in my 1968 Pearson Wanderer 30.

    On the switch panel inside the companionway, there is a keyed switch that closes the ignition circuit. Up in the cockpit there is a push-button momentary switch to start the engine. To start the engine, you turn the key, which only closes the circuit (but does not start the engine). Then you hold down the little spring-loaded button to spin the starter and kick the engine over. As soon as it starts, let go of the push button and the engine runs.

    To turn the engine off, you just turn the key, which opens the circuit.

    At least that's how it's supposed to work.

    A few weeks ago, I pulled up to the slip after motoring for about an hour, reached in and turned the key off, and the engine just kept running without any change whatsoever. The engine just completely ignored the switch.

    I turned the key back and forth with no effect. I left the key in the off position and stood there scratching my head trying to figure out what to do next, when after a couple minutes, the engine finally sputtered and died.

    I assumed the keyed switch was bad, so I replaced it. I now know that was about $26 wasted, because it made no difference whatsoever and it still does the same thing. I've been using the choke to kill the engine.

    Last weekend, I was out sailing, and after I raised the sails, I turned the key off to try to shut off the motor, with no effect, so I choked the engine to kill it. Later, at the end of the day, I started the engine up without realizing the key switch was still in the off position. Altough the key was off, the engine started and ran just fine, but after about three minutes it started sputtering and slowing and then died. We were coasting along and I was saying two words, the first of which was "Oh..." when I suddenly realized the switch was off. I reached in, turned it back on and restarted the motor without incident.

    When we got back to the dock, once again, I had to choke the engine to kill it because turning off the key had no effect.

    So that tells me that either (1) there is an intermittent short somewhere in between the keyed switch and the ignition that is completing the circuit and thereby bypassing the switch or (2) there is some other component that is "sticky" - that is, it stays closed when it's supposed to open. Maybe a solenoid of some sort?

    The previous owner replaced the original ignition with an electronic ignition system.

    I plan on taking a good look at the wiring diagrams I have available - I took a quick look at the wires this weekend, but I didn't have time to fully trace them out.

    Any ideas as to what the issue could be?

    Thanks in advance.
    - Bill T.
    - Richmond, VA

    Relentless pursuer of lost causes
  • Dave Neptune
    Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
    • Jan 2007
    • 5044

    #2
    Hmm??

    Bill, check the wiring on the coil, you may have something feeding back through another circuit that is about to fail itself.
    Do check the schematics and nothing but ign related wiring should be on the coil.

    Dave Neptune

    Comment

    • Mo
      Afourian MVP
      • Jun 2007
      • 4468

      #3
      Dave,
      I like your suggestion. Sounds really familier although I just can't recall what the cause was.
      Mo

      "Odyssey"
      1976 C&C 30 MKI

      The pessimist complains about the wind.
      The optimist expects it to change.
      The realist adjusts the sails.
      ...Sir William Arthur Ward.

      Comment

      • Dave Neptune
        Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
        • Jan 2007
        • 5044

        #4
        Shut off???

        Maurice, sometimes the "exiting" line for the field of the alternator can feed back to the ignition circuit depending on the wiring and that may be it.
        Worth a check.

        Dave Neptune

        Comment

        • Mo
          Afourian MVP
          • Jun 2007
          • 4468

          #5
          Hi Dave
          I really can't recall, I know my neighbor and I finally installed a push/pull ignition switch and a push button for the starter...no key anymore. I hope Bill T gets it sorted out without too much difficulty.
          Mo

          "Odyssey"
          1976 C&C 30 MKI

          The pessimist complains about the wind.
          The optimist expects it to change.
          The realist adjusts the sails.
          ...Sir William Arthur Ward.

          Comment

          • ILikeRust
            Afourian MVP
            • Sep 2010
            • 2198

            #6
            Thanks. I'll try to check it out next weekend. The wierd thing is it was working just fine and then all of a sudden started doing this.
            - Bill T.
            - Richmond, VA

            Relentless pursuer of lost causes

            Comment

            • ndutton
              Afourian MVP
              • May 2009
              • 9601

              #7
              Unless you've been shutting off your battery switch after choking the engine you may have subjected the coil to some bad ju-ju, electronic ignition too.
              Neil
              1977 Catalina 30
              San Pedro, California
              prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
              Had my hands in a few others

              Comment

              • JOHN COOKSON
                Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
                • Nov 2008
                • 3500

                #8
                Engine Won't Quit!

                Disconnect the wire from the key at the coil. Run a wire from the big battery connection on the starter motor (or the battery itself if access is easier) to the coil, start the engine and see what happens (this bypasses the boat's wiring). Don't leave the hot jumper wire on the coil for any length of time when the engine isn't running.

                Disconnect the wire to any other devices that are wired to the coil one at a time (fuel pump, alternator) and temporally power them with the hot jumper wire to see if the problem goes away.

                TRUE GRIT

                Comment

                • ILikeRust
                  Afourian MVP
                  • Sep 2010
                  • 2198

                  #9
                  Originally posted by ndutton View Post
                  Unless you've been shutting off your battery switch after choking the engine you may have subjected the coil to some bad ju-ju, electronic ignition too.
                  Can you elucidate further, please?

                  Thanks!
                  - Bill T.
                  - Richmond, VA

                  Relentless pursuer of lost causes

                  Comment

                  • ILikeRust
                    Afourian MVP
                    • Sep 2010
                    • 2198

                    #10
                    Originally posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
                    Disconnect the wire from the key at the coil. Run a wire from the big battery connection on the starter motor (or the battery itself if access is easier) to the coil, start the engine and see what happens (this bypasses the boat's wiring). Don't leave the hot jumper wire on the coil for any length of time when the engine isn't running.

                    Disconnect the wire to any other devices that are wired to the coil one at a time (fuel pump, alternator) and temporally power them with the hot jumper wire to see if the problem goes away.
                    This is the kind of specific advice I really can use! Thanks - I'll try this.
                    - Bill T.
                    - Richmond, VA

                    Relentless pursuer of lost causes

                    Comment

                    • ndutton
                      Afourian MVP
                      • May 2009
                      • 9601

                      #11
                      Originally posted by ILikeRust View Post
                      Can you elucidate further, please?

                      Thanks!
                      Elucidate? Oh-oh, looks like another word of the week contest might be brewing.

                      Since turning off the key didn't stop the engine it follows that the coil remained energized. Leaving the coil and/or electronic ignition module energized without the engine running cooks them internally over time. Turning off the battery switch should have de-energized the system and avoided the risk of damage.

                      I'm not saying your components are damaged, just mentioning the possibility.
                      Neil
                      1977 Catalina 30
                      San Pedro, California
                      prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
                      Had my hands in a few others

                      Comment

                      • Mark Millbauer
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 193

                        #12
                        Bill,
                        Look at the coil and one by one disconnect any accessories connected to it, hour meter, tach, anything else, etc. Disconnect a wire, and shut the ignition switch, if no change, disconnect another accessory wire and shut the ignition switch off, and on and on. You can try the same thing with any accessories connected to the ignition terminal of the ignition switch as well. You may stumble into the circuit that is causing the short.

                        Mark
                        C27 "Solution"
                        Mark
                        C30 "Kismet"

                        Comment

                        • rigspelt
                          Afourian MVP
                          • May 2008
                          • 1186

                          #13
                          Originally posted by ILikeRust View Post
                          Can you elucidate further, please?
                          I suspect Neil meant that even though you stop the engine by pulling out the choke, there is still hot current flowing in the ignition circuit where it should not, owing to the short that has developed. If you have an electronic ignition module, it can be damaged by having electricity applied to it when the engine is not running normally. That's only one example of problems that can occur.
                          1974 C&C 27

                          Comment

                          • ArtJ
                            • Sep 2009
                            • 2175

                            #14
                            I am wondering if it is safe to leave the key on for up to 5 minutes?
                            For example when testing fuel pumps, safety switches and other spark
                            related testing etc?

                            Comment

                            • hanleyclifford
                              Afourian MVP
                              • Mar 2010
                              • 6990

                              #15
                              Art - The ignition circuit should never be energized even for a few seconds unless you intend to start the engine. This thread is a good recommendation for color coding of wiring (I use purple for ignition circuit). All of the above are solid trouble shooting ideas and in fact this should result in a rewire of the boat in question. A live circuit of unknown origin is intolerable in any engine driven device. Regards, Hanley

                              Comment

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