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  #51   IP: 74.110.198.83
Old 01-26-2011, 04:46 PM
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Ze deed, she is done.

I decided to go ahead and pay the boatyard to use their crane and experienced guys to hoist my engine out, rather than figure out a DIY solution. I figured this way, if something bad happened, it would be theirs and not mine, and since my time is pretty limited anyhow, it would be much quicker (and safer).

Today was the only day they could fit me in other than two or more weeks away, and I didn't want to lose the next couple weekends to get to work on the engine. So I had to play hooky from work and hang out in the cold and rain. It is a pretty miserable day today.

Anyhow, on with the pics -

Last time I went up and worked on the boat on the hard (which was my first time working on her on the hard), I brought a 6' stepladder, which turned out to be insufficient, so this time I brought a 12' folding ladder, which worked perfectly (although it was cold and rainy).



I took measurements off the engine and very quickly cobbled together this little cradle out of scrap lumber:



I had to wait around for a while, but the guys finally came over with the crane and they moved so fast, I hardly had time to snap any photos.





Continued...
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Old 01-26-2011, 04:52 PM
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And here is the engine compartment, looking very much like a bloody, empty tooth socket:



YEEECCCCCHHH!!! What a mess. Water, oil, mud, gunk.... blecccch.

Looks like I've got my work cut out for me cleaning up all that mess.

BUT -

Here is the most interesting development.

I have a buddy who has a beat up old sailboat that's been on the hard for a couple years - he bought it as a project boat but now wants to just get rid of it. The reason he bought it was because the old guy he bought it from had put a brand new Volvo diesel engine in it. The story is that the old guy bought the engine, factory brand new, in 1999 or 2000 and installed it in the boat. He then used it for two seasons and then became ill and couldn't use the boat anymore. The boat sat in his yard for five years and then he decided to get rid of it and my buddy bought it for $1,200. The engine cost $7,000 new (my buddy has the receipts) and has less than 200 hours on it. The boat also came with "a whole mess" of sails. According to my buddy, it has lots of sails and they're all good - but he gutted the interior, as he was going to re-do the whole thing.

When I told him I had just pulled my engine and was going to overhaul it, he suggested I take the engine from his boat and offered me his whole boat, engine, sails and all for $1,000. He's currently paying only $65/month to keep it on the hard in a boatyard, and he's just paid for the next three months.

I'm thinking this probably is too good a deal to pass up. I figure if I want to sell my boat in 6 or 8 or 10 years or whatever, it will be easier to sell with a 20 year-old, low-hour Volvo diesel in it than a 40 year-old rebuilt Atomic 4 gas engine with unkown hours on it.

Plus, I figure I can sell my engine (plus all the parts I just purchased from Moyer for my expected rebuild ) to offset the cost, and also, after I yank out the diesel, I can sell his boat for a couple hundred bucks - the sails alone would be worth it. I figure somebody who wants a rough boat to just go bang around in can hang an outboard off the back and take it out for a sail. If I get a couple hundred bucks out of it, the diesel will be practically free.

Of course, it will require me to figure out the connection from the engine to the prop shaft and the engine beds and stuff, but I figure that's all doable - I'm certainly not the first person to repower an old sailboat with a modern diesel engine.

But the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking this might be the way to go.
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Old 01-26-2011, 05:03 PM
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Thumbs up good deal

Get your buddy to fire up the diesel first.

Also, find out what it would cost to have a boat hauled off to the dump. That would be the worst case scenario.

What kind of boat? maybe some of us bottom feeders could buy the incidental part or two.
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Old 01-26-2011, 05:17 PM
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He had a diesel mechanic come out last year and fire it up, and he said it ran fine. He also said we would go up there and have it fired up again before we did anything as far as transacting the deal. But he is very confident it's a very good engine. It does seem to make sense to me to put a 10 year-old, essentially new diesel in, rather than a 30 year-old, rather worn gas engine.
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Old 01-26-2011, 05:18 PM
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Oh, and I'm not sure what the boat is. I saw it once briefly - it's got bilge keels, I know that.
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Old 01-26-2011, 06:02 PM
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Bill,

I understand your logic but be prepared for:
  1. New fuel tank with fuel return port.
  2. New deck fill plate identified 'Diesel.'
  3. New throttle and shift control.
  4. New throttle and shift cables.
  5. New kill cable assembly.
  6. New exhaust hot section.
  7. Possible bigger exhaust hose and thru-hull.
  8. Possible bigger waterlift muffler.
  9. New or reworked engine panel.
  10. New prop shaft.
  11. New prop.
  12. Earmuffs
  13. Clothes pin for your nose

Some of these may be salvageable from the donor boat, some may not. That 'free' engine might turn out to be not so free after all.

Regarding disposal of the donor boat, you might inquire with the local fire department. Maybe you could donate it to them for a firefighting exercise.
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Last edited by ndutton; 01-26-2011 at 06:06 PM.
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Old 01-26-2011, 07:02 PM
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Hmm.... which makes me think of another potential issue: finding marinas that have diesel. It's hard enough finding marine gas sometimes.

I'm wondering if a small diesel would be much louder or smellier than the A4.

One thing I don't like is giving up the simplicity of the A4 engine. I know I can fix pretty much anything on the A4. I don't know anywhere near as much about a diesel engine. I mean, I know the principle on how they operate and such, but I've never taken one apart. I've opened up a bunch of gasoline engines - 2-stroke and 4-stroke. So I'd either have to give myself an education on diesel engines or rely on a good diesel mechanic (cha-ching!$$).

Much investigating to do...
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Old 01-26-2011, 07:19 PM
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Those are all things you need to determine for yourself. I can offer a viewpoint on this though:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeRust View Post
I'm wondering if a small diesel would be much louder or smellier than the A4.
I recently went out on a friend's 3 cyl. diesel powered Catalina 30. Standing in the galley preparing lunch underway with the engine running, I could not hear what the skipper was saying from the helm less than 6 feet away.

I can add that at the slip when my A-4 is idling it cannot be heard from the dock. Other small diesel powered sailboats can be heard 3 docks away.
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Old 01-27-2011, 07:26 AM
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Rust ,

To be added to all the well founded comments already made regarding your decision to re-power/not re-power :

Consider , realistically , the scale and degree of difficulty of the project. To clean up and improve the installation you already have (the nasty tooth socket) is tinker toys ; wire by wire , hose by hose doable. The re-power will require numerous new parts , systems , and one-offs. Doable , yes , but exponentially more difficult that the renovation of your existing equipment.

I know this from my experience with my spar conversion. I had no IDEA until I was a$$ deep into it. I am not saying that the conversion is a bad idea , I am saying look before you leap.

(I gotta admit , if I were you I'd be sorely tempted!)

Good luck ,

Laker
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Old 01-27-2011, 08:28 AM
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Yeah, upon further reflection and consideration last night, I'm thinking it probably does just make more sense overall to stick with Plan A.

I've got enough work ahead of me just cleaning that mess up and figuring out all the wiring and hoses and such - and taking care of all the other projects I've got planned for the boat - without having to cut out the engine beds and figure out new ones, and do everything else that would be required for the re-power - let alone going up to the Northern Neck, where my buddy's boat is, and pulling out his engine, and then having to dispose of the boat.

The A4 is such a dirt simple engine - I can fix anything on it myself. Not so sure about the diesel. I mean, yeah, I know how diesels work, but I've never dug into one. I'd have to give myself an education on the Volvo, and I've already done that (and am continuing to do so) on the A4. Given how reliable the little Atomic is, and how well it runs (even with 2 quarts of water in the crankcase! ), it's kinda hard to justify ditching it now. I figure if it works, why mess with it? And this one has worked just fine in this boat for the past 27 years.

Of course, all of that might change when I open up the engine - we'll have to see what I find in there.
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Old 01-27-2011, 08:31 AM
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Question things that make you go hmmmm...

Hmmm, a possible Atomic 4 and parts for sale within a couple hours' drive.

Ooops..do I sound like a vulture? ILR - everyone's comments are good..this is a tough one to decide!
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Old 01-27-2011, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
Hmmm, a possible Atomic 4 and parts for sale within a couple hours' drive.
Hey, put that dorsal fin away!

Sheesh, they smell a drop of blood, and next thing ya know, they're circling...
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Old 01-27-2011, 09:39 AM
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Regardless of which way you go, A-4 or over to the dark side, I'd think twice about using the existing wiring as a pattern for rewiring. You could do yourself and the boat a real favor by starting from scratch using one or more of the excellent wiring drawings available on this forum.

I just did it and it's a comfort knowing everything is new, properly terminated with a minimum of connections, properly supported, ABYC color code compliant and fully documented. Besides, generally speaking, what looks good is good. The converse is true too.

I'll go out on a limb but only slightly in saying I'm sure every member of this forum can do a better job of wiring their engine than what's likely existing. The factories have nothing to brag about electrically and we all suffer the results of our P.O.'s handiwork.

And what has Don said in the past about the most common cause of engine shutdown?
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Old 01-27-2011, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Regardless of which way you go, A-4 or over to the dark side, I'd think twice about using the existing wiring as a pattern for rewiring.
Yup. I found Don's wiring diagram here just a couple days ago, which was as "woo hoo!" moment for me.

I had carefully labeled all the old wires as I disconnected everything, but the farther along I went, the more I realized it was a mess and probably had stuff connected to stuff that it shouldn't be connected to, along with lots of unnecessary mid-wire splices, wires sloppily run right through the engine compartment space rather than neatly routed along a panel, etc.

And lots of little fuse blocks all over the place. I'm thinking I want a central fuse/breaker panel, rather than these little fuse blocks in random locations.

Sigh. More work...

Can anyone recommend a good book on boat wiring?
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Old 01-27-2011, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeRust View Post
Can anyone recommend a good book on boat wiring?
There are a number of excellent resources out there but Nigel Calder's book is considered to be the Bible.

http://www.amazon.com/Boatowners-Mec.../dp/007009618X

Don Casey's work on the subject is highly regarded too but for A-4 specifics, this forum is the place.
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Old 01-27-2011, 10:21 AM
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Remember that most people on this forum are biased towards the Atomic 4
I think you should talk to some people who have done diesel conversions

before. Hansen Marine in Marblehead mass, for one, has step by step conversion
plans for Westerbeke diesels probably for your exact boat. Whether or not
it is a Westerbeke you are installing most steps will be the same.

Don't pass up a good deal without checking out the Diesel option.

Regards

Art
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Old 01-27-2011, 12:24 PM
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Another Useful Publication

The 12 Yolt Doctor's Practical Handbook by Edgar J. Beyn - http://www.weems-plath.com
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Old 01-27-2011, 12:28 PM
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Good discussion about pros and cons.

I love a good deal, but I have shot myself in the foot many times too

I got a free basket-case Volvo diesel from a guy last year. I started to check prices for repair parts. End of story. I chucked it in the dump. It's the support you should be shopping for, not necessarily the engine type. If you think an A-4 is expensive to repair, try a diesel.
I would have given up on the A-4 too if it were not for Moyer's, Indigo and others being in business. The "official" Universal dealer is out of my budget.
I understand this volvo is a good runner, and that has it's merit. I would be tempted too. I like the fact that when you smell Diesel fuel in the boat, you don't have to panic. It's because it always smells that way!
It is possible to keep the smell down in a diesel boat, but I think it takes the same due diligence as fire prevention on a gasser. Its all about leaks.
As a test, put a drop of diesel fuel on your pants and wear them home. If the wife kicks you out of the house because of the smell, you have your answer.

russ
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Old 01-27-2011, 09:13 PM
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Neil ,

If converting to diesel constitutes going over to the Dark Side ,
does converting to electric constitute going over to the Light Side ?

Sorry , couldn't resist.

Laker
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Old 01-27-2011, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laker View Post
Neil ,
If converting to diesel constitutes going over to the Dark Side ,
does converting to electric constitute going over to the Light Side ?
Well, I 'spose it does.

As soon as we can fabricate batteries in the shape of a keel and make sails out of photovoltaics I'm in! I'll have to ditch the compass though, it'll just spin around.

Rusty,
What's the market like for that Volvo? Might be able to sell off the engine, scrap the lead and dump the boat.
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Old 01-28-2011, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Well, I 'spose it does.

As soon as we can fabricate batteries in the shape of a keel and make sails out of photovoltaics I'm in! I'll have to ditch the compass though, it'll just spin around.

Rusty,
What's the market like for that Volvo? Might be able to sell off the engine, scrap the lead and dump the boat.
Neil

Those are fantastic ideas, maybe someone will read this and one day develop
both.
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Old 01-28-2011, 08:55 AM
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Thumbs up

Art, they're embedding PV's into roof shingles so it may come sooner rather than later...they're even making PV cells that you can walk on (if strung out on deck for example) without damage.

With laminating technology like North's 3Di (which from what I understand is just a bunch of threads glued together with no film, kinda like Tyvek) & other similar products it could happen...
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Old 01-28-2011, 09:03 AM
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
Art, they're embedding PV's into roof shingles so it may come sooner rather than later...they're even making PV cells that you can walk on (if strung out on deck for example) without damage.

With laminating technology like North's 3Di (which from what I understand is just a bunch of threads glued together with no film, kinda like Tyvek) & other similar products it could happen...
The only issue would be that the sail would need to be somewhat horizontal
instead of vertical. Perhaps that could be partially solved by only sailing
with southern exposure directions.

Or better still have the bimini and Dodger be solar panels and maybe spinnaker?
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Old 01-29-2011, 08:41 PM
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I figure I'll just keep all of this in one thread, rather than start another.

Anyhow, the overhaul has begun.

After driving around with the engine in the back of my truck for the past two days, this morning I whacked together a quick little dolly for the engine to sit on and slid it down two 2x10s out of the truck and onto the dolly.



I had broken off one of the thermostat housing studs, so I started working on that. The other one came out without too much fuss, but the broken one was being recalcitrant. I heated the head with a torch, hit it with Kroil (magic stuff, that), heated it again, etc., then grabbed it with vise grips and ... it cracked and crumbled.



I finally managed to work the head loose enough that I could wiggle it slightly back and forth and gradually got it high enough that I could pivot it on that one remaining stud past the valves and spun it around until the stud came loose.



Then I knocked the broken stud out of the head casting.

Then on to other components.

Continued...
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Old 01-29-2011, 08:43 PM
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Took off the starter:



Took off the flywheel and flywheel housing, water jacket side cover, valve cover, distributor and water pump.





I scraped off the gasket remains and dug around in the various water passages, which were pretty full of crud. I was dismayed to find a couple passages completely blocked.

Continued...
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