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Old 11-29-2011, 09:12 PM
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Shaft removal, cutless, stern tube replacement

As my signature says our T27 is now 43 years young and as such many of it's systems are either 43 years old or slightly younger if replaced by some PO. The only maintenance we did with our A4 drive train was to replace the stuffing box packing.
We have noticed a noise seemingly coming from the cutless bearing when underway; a kind of steady drone and vibration that can be as loud as the noise of the running engine so a cutless bearing job has been in our future for a while. The future is now and we are in the midst of a drive train tear down and replacement job, and to put it nicely this job seems like a real chore.
Undoing the press fit between the shaft and the flange (in situ) is a real PITA. We are using the "press out" method which entails putting a small pusher (socket wrench cup) between the two flanges and tightening them up to push the shaft out. This work is extremely tedious with the engine access we have to this area of the engine so I am thinking about improving access which should make it less painful. Am I missing something here? Is there an easier way to separate the shaft and flange?
(I promise to take some pictures of this job and post them to document)

Once we got the shaft flange unbolted from the transmission output flange we were able to pull the shaft out (sternwise) about the length of the cutless bearing. The shaft bound up tightly after about 4" of movement and we could see that the shaft was actually slightly gouged at the bearing. You can feel where the shaft is worn down and see it. So it seems we need a new shaft after perhaps 43 years of usage. Not too shabby but not really anticipated either, although I should have expected as much as this bearing seemed to make some noise when we got her about 8 years ago.

Since we need a new 1" bronze shaft anyway is there any reason for not to cut the old one with a Sawzall to facilitate removal? The only reasons I can think of is the gas tank right above this area and the small copper piping is a gas line or gas tank vent line. I'd consider pulling as much shaft out of the transom and cutting the exposed portion off once the prop and flange are off.

The old shaft log (Buck Algonquin hose) on our boat has always scared the crap out of me but I've had my run of luck with this equipment and it will be replaced as well. When I poked around at the aft most hose clamp on our shaft log it was so rusted it just came apart.
Hope I can re-size this 'Before' picture but you might want to hide the kids 'cause this is not too pretty.
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Last edited by CalebD; 11-29-2011 at 09:18 PM.
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Old 11-29-2011, 10:37 PM
Bigeye Bigeye is offline
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Flip the propeller shaft?

Seems a waste to throw away (cash in?) that bronze shaft. Might it be possible to flip the shaft around so that the worn areas are not at the cutlass bearing or stern tube? I have never heard of doing this but perhaps it's possible.

Bigeye
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Old 11-29-2011, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigeye View Post
Seems a waste to throw away (cash in?) that bronze shaft. Might it be possible to flip the shaft around so that the worn areas are not at the cutlass bearing or stern tube? I have never heard of doing this but perhaps it's possible.
Nope, not possible. The shaft is tapered at the outboard end, straight at the inboard end.

Caleb,
Save the grief and cut the shaft. The shaft looks like bronze and should therefore cut easily. Use the pieces to measure for the new shaft. Man, those hose clamps are a fright and there should be twice as many. Lady luck has been on your side for some time.

Any half decent auto shop can press the stump out of the coupler for probably a six pack. Well, maybe a six pack of import.
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Old 11-29-2011, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Caleb,
Save the grief and cut the shaft. The shaft looks like bronze and should therefore cut easily. Use the pieces to measure for the new shaft. Man, those hose clamps are a fright and there should be twice as many. Lady luck has been on your side for some time.

Any half decent auto shop can press the stump out of the coupler for probably a six pack. Well, maybe a six pack of import.
Bigeye,
Because of the threading and taper on the outboard end of the shaft it cannot be reversed. I also wondered about that.

Neil,
Yes, I've been quite lucky for long enough on this one.
Good idea on the nearby auto shop though. There is one within walking distance from our boat and it is the right place except for the one eyed dog sleeping somewhere on the property.
Thanks for the encouragement too. I need it as I'm finding this to be a very discouraging job to do. I'm considering tearing out the original 'ice box' that is tabbed into the deck above the port side after berth, for better overall engine access; something I have been contemplating for a while.
Imported beer? You mean something like Labatt's Blue?
I'm kind of a fan of Sierra Nevada ales myself.
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Old 11-29-2011, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalebD View Post
Thanks for the encouragement too. I need it as I'm finding this to be a very discouraging job to do.
Keep your eye on the prize. Imagine what you'll have when you're done. You are way better off than Shawn was in his epic Indigo thread and his came out great.

Did I understand you were replacing everything? Shaft, bearing, stuffing box and hose?
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Old 11-30-2011, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Keep your eye on the prize. Imagine what you'll have when you're done. You are way better off than Shawn was in his epic Indigo thread and his came out great.

Did I understand you were replacing everything? Shaft, bearing, stuffing box and hose?
Yes. I have a replacement cutless bearing, new packing material and Buck Algonquin hose in hand for that purpose. Now I just need to remove the old shaft, fit all the new gear into place and re-fit the damn thing once the planets re-align.
Hoping to re-use old stuffing box, prop and flange if prop shop says they pass muster. I was considering the Indigo 3 blade prop for our boat but my racing partner (type A) likes to win so that will be a tough sell. I'm ok with the 12" x 8" 2 blade prop we have, if it is kept clean; it is old but not quite dead, yet.
I have had a lot of time to think about this job and have accumulated most of the major parts I think I need. The press fitting stuff goes so slowly with a fair amount of effort. Maybe I need to start drinking V8 or eating spinach like Popeye to keep my strength up.
To keep my spirits up I always tell myself: "This %*^#ing bottom will never sand it's self" and by extension the drive shaft wont either. If you want it done right you're going to have to do most or all of it yourself.

I'll look up Shawn's Indigo thread, thanks for that.

I hope to take some more pics tomorrow of the shaft/flange removal process after I pick up more bolts and washers to help with undoing the compression fittings.

Thanks again.
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Old 11-30-2011, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalebD View Post
I hope to take some more pics tomorrow of the shaft/flange removal process after I pick up more bolts and washers to help with undoing the compression fittings.
If this means you are still trying to press out the shaft yourself, know that at some point you risk bending the output flange. Shawn's Indigo thread has a good picture of a destroyed flange from the identical operation.

That's why cutting the shaft is much more friendly to the parts.

Good luck, looking forward to your success report.
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Old 11-30-2011, 03:01 AM
Marty Levenson Marty Levenson is offline
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Hull #342

Hay CalebD,

Good luck with that job - they do eventually get done!

As for the ice-box, go for it: that's one of the best moves we ever made. Tore it out in two pieces and glassed up the leaking outside access hatch. Installed an Engel AC/DC electric fridge in the forward end of the quarterberth. Semi-permanently installed but can remove it and put it on the sole if we need that extra berth. It has been fantastic! Also built a big cupboard ("food pantry") where the icebox was. Would never go back to buying ice and melting it with the muffler.

Keep at it,
Marty
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Old 11-30-2011, 01:18 PM
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Neil's warning about bending the output flange on the transmission is well founded. You will need to purchase long grade 8 bolts (McMasterCarr) and you run the risk of bending that flange if you need to apply too much pressure to push out the shaft. A safer approach is to either cut the shaft or purchase Tool 06-135 from Moyer with long grade 8 bolts. That tool is much thicker than the output flange and wont deflect. The consider a split coupling from Moyer for replacement.
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Old 11-30-2011, 02:42 PM
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I'm undertaking a similar job now. I developed some shaft wobble last summer. My alignment measured between the output and shaft flanges is less than .003, so the problem must be elsewhere (I suspect shaft flange not true). In the meantime, I think the shaft log rubber tube was probably replaced last time yours was, Caleb, so I'm starting from scratch. Taking the prop shaft and flange to a local shop that specializes in this work. The prop shaft flange is too loose a fit on the shaft which may be a result of my removal work (an hour of tapping concentrically around the flange with a plastic mallet to slide it off) so I may end up with a new shaft and flange. In the meantime I'll replace the rubber tube (Buck-Algonquin) and clean up my stuffing box. Fortunately, in fresh water I don't get the corrosion you guys get.
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Old 11-30-2011, 05:48 PM
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I had the yard install the cutlass bearing on my C-30. If I remember correctly, the bearing was $50 and labor $75. The people there have done it a thousand times, and I really felt like it was the deal of the century....

Good luck with the project. I have a feeling I'll be doing the same in a couple of years...
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Old 11-30-2011, 08:10 PM
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Sawzall rules!!!

Marty,
I borrowed a sawzall to cut the shaft and then was licking my lips as I sized up the built in ice box thinking I'd just do it there and then. Are there any pics of your 'ice box modification' on the T27Owners group? I'd love to see some pics and get some ideas for a fairly easy, orderly removal of the ice box. Our boats were likely similarly built, my hull being #328 and yours #342.
Thanks for the encouragement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Levenson View Post
Hay CalebD,

Good luck with that job - they do eventually get done!

As for the ice-box, go for it: that's one of the best moves we ever made. Tore it out in two pieces and glassed up the leaking outside access hatch. Installed an Engel AC/DC electric fridge in the forward end of the quarterberth. Semi-permanently installed but can remove it and put it on the sole if we need that extra berth. It has been fantastic! Also built a big cupboard ("food pantry") where the icebox was. Would never go back to buying ice and melting it with the muffler.

Keep at it,
Marty
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Old 11-30-2011, 09:15 PM
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Sawzall rules again!!

Neil and everyone,
I did not have time to re-read Shaun's rather long thread but I did take Neil's advice to heart. I borrowed a Sawzall from a friend and headed off to the boat and took a few pics before contemplating cutting the 1" bronze shaft right under the gas tank with limited space.
The Sawzall was useful for eliminating the remaining hose clamp on the shaft log hose and then the stuffing box was liberated. I climbed into the starboard cockpit locker to get good access to where I wanted to cut. Not much clearance but the bronze of the prop shaft is no match for a metal Sawzall blade and in about 10 minutes it was cut and extracted in two pieces from the boat. Wee-haw!
Neil's post and others made me check on the prices for the new couplings. Hmm. I do like the 2 piece shaft coupling for $175 but I'd still like to see if we did not destroy the old one. We had only pushed the shaft about 1" out of the flange using the torturous compression method. Hopefully the output coupling did not suffer too badly either but we shall see. The next time I want to do this will be: not anytime soon, so I'd rather replace anything that is questionable now then have to go back in and do it again.

Thank you Neil for your wise advice. I just hope we didn't ruin more then we accomplished by trying to force out the compression fittings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
If this means you are still trying to press out the shaft yourself, know that at some point you risk bending the output flange. Shawn's Indigo thread has a good picture of a destroyed flange from the identical operation.

That's why cutting the shaft is much more friendly to the parts.

Good luck, looking forward to your success report.
First shot is of the shaft log with the aft hose clamp crumbled into pieces of rust after prying with a screwdriver:

Next shot shows the shaft coupling and output coupling separated:
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Old 11-30-2011, 09:24 PM
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Next shot is post Sawzall meeting shaft:
Following shot is the stuffing box on work bench showing how well the Gore GFO packing lasted these last 8 years:
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Old 11-30-2011, 09:30 PM
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Next shot is of the expensive packing material removing tool I used:
The following shot shows that I got to the bottom of it. Now I know why I could not get many rings of new packing material in there:
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Old 11-30-2011, 11:00 PM
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Good on ya. I've squeezed out the shaft from the coupling 3 times in the 20 years I've had my boat, all before the 2-part coupling was available, and it's the hardest and least rewarding job I've ever done. My shaft is only 3/4" and I use a series of stacked dimes as the cylindrical pressing tool.

Another vote for the Moyer 2-part coupling. If you ever have to take that shaft out again, you've gotta factor in some benefit of saving either time by NOT pressing out your new shaft, or time and money by NOT cutting the shaft out and having to track down a replacement.

That savings makes the price on the Moyer coupling look quite reasonable in my opinion.
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Old 12-01-2011, 12:00 AM
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The pic of Shawn's destroyed output flange is in the Indigo thread, post #309.

Good progress today and it looks like you're well on your way to an excellent result. Getting that stuff apart was a milestone.
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Old 12-01-2011, 12:14 AM
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Money shot

I forgot the money shot, after it was all cleaned up looking like s bronze stuffing box again.
The other money shot is of my hand and all the divots and dings it took trying to press this fitting out in the engine compartment (not posted due to graphic content).
The Sawzall took control of the situation and separated the shaft easily by comparison to what it would have taken to do it in situ, on the boat.
I have a steering wheel puller for a car that I can use for the rest of the pulling, pushing and whatever it takes to get the rest of this done.
A big milestone for me accomplished: the shaft is out of the boat.
Thanks again for the tips and encouragement. I will need them.

My best.
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Old 12-01-2011, 12:50 AM
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Nice job, Caleb! And thanks for posting all the photos.
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Old 12-01-2011, 09:41 AM
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Keep in mind that if there is rust between the prop shaft coupler and the shaft, your press fit between the coupler and the new shaft might be ruined.

I would go with a new split coupler.

See, e.g.:

This thread about fitting and facing the coupler.

This video clearly illustrating the issue.
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Old 12-01-2011, 07:25 PM
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Thanks everyone.

I've been reading the 'Indigo' thread hosted by Shaun and boy, is my head spinning. That thread is truly a saga about overcoming difficulties.

Bill,
Thanks for the MS link on re-using old flanges vs. new. Pretty compelling. I'm leaning towards the 2 part flange more and more.

One question I am contemplating is whether or not we need to replace our old shaft with bronze like our old one, or if SS would do it?

Thanks.
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Old 12-02-2011, 08:14 AM
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I don't know why stainless would be any kind of problem versus bronze. First, I think you will find it a lot easier to find a new stainless steel shaft versus bronze. Second, I think you will find it substantially less expensive.

My 1968 Pearson has a stainless steel shaft.

You can either find a local boatyard to help you find or fabricate a new shaft, or you can simply order one from some place such as Deep Blue Yacht Supply.
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Old 12-02-2011, 08:23 AM
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Stainless or an alloy of stainless will be much harder than bronze and will prevent the wear areas over time at the stuffing box and bearing as pictured in the Indigo thread, post #187. The common shaft alloys are either Monel or Sealloy.

Locally our go-to shaft source is Wilmington Iron Works.
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Old 12-02-2011, 02:33 PM
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Stainless is the better choice. It does carry a slight penalty in increased galvanic corrosion of a bronze prop, but this is easily handled by adding one or more shaft zincs as close to the prop as possible. Zinc-based paint on the shaft & prop (but not on or under the shaft zincs) also helps.

In 2005, a PO x 2 replaced our original 1 1/8" bronze shaft with stainless.
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Old 12-02-2011, 02:52 PM
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Thanks

Bill and Neil,
You gave me the answer I was hoping for. I did note that Shawn replaced his bronze shaft with a new SS one on the Indigo thread. I just wanted to be sure I did not miss something.
I suspected that a SS shaft would be cheaper and easier to find then bronze which just makes it all that much sweeter. I can use whatever savings I realize on the 2 part coupler from Moyer.

I suspect that our bronze shaft was 43 years old. Would I be correct in assuming that back then (1960's) Stainless steel technology was not mature enough to make reliable prop shafts as we see today?
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