Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Drive Train / Propellers

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 159.108.3.19
Old 09-29-2015, 03:41 PM
JimF JimF is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 19
Thanks: 9
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Shaft coupling is a rusty lump, how to remove

My shaft coupler has no discernible bolt heads, and appears to be pretty well rusted onto the part it bolts onto(I don't know what to call that). I may have to cut it off the shaft and this no name part. It appears that the no-name part can't be removed without first removing the coupler, so that is out unles someone can tell me a way to do it. Transmission is direct drive (I think).

The boat goes on the hard this week so it is time to start, plan is to first cut off what left of the bolt heads and then try to drill the bolts out with left handed drill bits. followed by easy out bits to remove whats left out. I need to do this because the coupler is disintegrating and my Ranger 29 has so little room between the coupler and the stuffing box that I can't change the shaft packing without removing the coupler. Changing the packing is long overdue.

I am looking for advice I guess on how easy it is or isn't to replace this no-name piece that the shaft coupler bolts onto (3 bolts), if it turns out I need to do that, and also advice on drilling out bolts this rusty.



Thanks
Attached Images
 

Last edited by JimF; 09-30-2015 at 08:46 AM. Reason: picture added
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 71.118.13.238
Old 09-29-2015, 04:47 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lake Arrowhead Ca.
Posts: 4,234
Thanks: 486
Thanked 488 Times in 337 Posts
JimF, if you have fair access and can run the engine against the dock lines try a wire brush. With the engine running in gear you can hold the wire brush against the rusty stuff and things will appear as the rust is removed, try forward and reverse. You can also just use more "Norwegian steam" and just wire brush by hand if you have the energy. Whatever feels comfortable to you.

Spray some penetrating oil into the rust as you are brushing/or holding the brush. You will be surprised how much will come off~then you can see what you are up against.

Do you have the MMI manual?

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #3   IP: 66.102.6.167
Old 09-29-2015, 05:55 PM
Administrator's Avatar
Administrator Administrator is online now
MMI Webmaster
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Chestertown, MD (Langford Creek)
Posts: 2,186
Thanks: 1,323
Thanked 310 Times in 169 Posts
Eye protection!

Bill
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 73.27.138.11
Old 09-29-2015, 06:24 PM
romantic comedy's Avatar
romantic comedy romantic comedy is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: florida
Posts: 1,860
Thanks: 6
Thanked 93 Times in 77 Posts
I would get all dressed up with gloves, eye protection, hat and body protection. Then watch for fuel sources and go like hell with my Makita grinder. I love making sparks!!

Get back, everybody out of the way!!

Last edited by romantic comedy; 09-29-2015 at 06:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to romantic comedy For This Useful Post:
Administrator (09-29-2015)
  #5   IP: 32.211.28.40
Old 09-29-2015, 07:55 PM
Al Schober's Avatar
Al Schober Al Schober is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Uncasville, CT
Posts: 1,665
Thanks: 9
Thanked 273 Times in 212 Posts
Jim,
The 'no name' part is the output flange of the transmission. The part behind it is the shaft coupling, which has 3 bolts (direct drive) connecting it to the transmission.
To clean up the corrosion, I'd use an angle grinder with a wire wheel - one of the coarse ones where the wires are twisted into ropes. Gloves, long sleeve shirt, and safety glasses with side shields (or full face shield). You do NOT want that stuff in your eye - your PCP will send you right to an ophthalmic surgeon.
Depending on what's left after cleanup, you may be able to get the bolts started with a pair of vise grips. My next choice would be to cut a slot into what's left with a Dremel tool, and then use an impact screwdriver. Final option is left hand drills. I would advise against easy-outs - break off one of those suckers and you're in deep trouble.
But after you get the bolts out - then what? The coupling is probably corroded to the shaft, and it doesn't sound like you have much room to work. You can fight with it or just hit it with the checkbook - cut the shaft aft of the coupling, then replace the shaft and coupling. Don sells a split coupling that sounds perfect for your application.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Al Schober For This Useful Post:
Administrator (09-29-2015)
  #6   IP: 71.178.82.252
Old 09-29-2015, 09:26 PM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 6,687
Thanks: 657
Thanked 364 Times in 283 Posts
Jim...we need some pics. They really help a lot. If you decide to grind on it first, Al's advice is good.

I fought a coupler/shaft issue several years ago...all these peeps helped me out quite a bit without resorting to drastic measures..simple, but methodical steps tackled it.
__________________
-Shawn
"Twice Around" - '77 Catalina 30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold.
She is even happier with fresh paint on the topsides!

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif

Last edited by sastanley; 09-29-2015 at 09:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 09-29-2015, 09:44 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 8,950
Thanks: 162
Thanked 1,447 Times in 975 Posts
If you're considering brushing a spinning coupler I'd forget the long sleeves and any gloves should be the tight fitting surgical type.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #8   IP: 108.41.166.138
Old 09-29-2015, 11:41 PM
tenders tenders is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlem YC, City Island, NY
Posts: 1,383
Thanks: 35
Thanked 204 Times in 134 Posts
The coupler in that condition is never going to be salvageable. I would cut the shaft coupler off the shaft by running a Sawzall parallel to, and close to, the shaft. Do that twice, taking care not to nick the engine side coupler, and the rusty part will fall off the shaft with a bit of inertial persuasion (i.e., a hammer). Then cut off any lingering bolts.

Save the wire wheeling for the shaft once you get the coupling off. Then replace the coupling with the Moyer split coupling - that is exactly what you want if you need to mess with the coupling to get at the packing. (Also consider replacing the flax packing with Teflon packing.) Smear antiseize everywhere there is metal-to-metal contact, and the coupling will probably never need to be replaced.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to tenders For This Useful Post:
Administrator (09-30-2015)
  #9   IP: 159.108.3.19
Old 09-30-2015, 08:49 AM
JimF JimF is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 19
Thanks: 9
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Picture added to original post

I uploaded a picture that can be viewed on the original post.

Thanks for the replies so far, I will start this job on Saturday, boat is in Maine and I am in Conn.
Reply With Quote
  #10   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 09-30-2015, 10:07 AM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,800
Thanks: 121
Thanked 154 Times in 129 Posts
Talking Wow

That is about as bad as I've ever seen. Looking at the cracks and separation one wonders if a cold chisel and ball peen might get it off. I can see some possibilities for gaining some working room by shortening the shaft log hose and the packing assembly itself, but first the thing must be disassembled. The caution now is to try to save the gear box out put coupling but even that is problematical since likely there are some nasty threads rusted into it. Start off with a little tap tap and see if that coupling might fall apart enough to free the shaft.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to hanleyclifford For This Useful Post:
Administrator (09-30-2015)
  #11   IP: 71.118.13.238
Old 09-30-2015, 11:31 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lake Arrowhead Ca.
Posts: 4,234
Thanks: 486
Thanked 488 Times in 337 Posts
Wow again

What Hanley said. You should really look into shortening the log as that is where the drip is and it looks like your coupling caught most of the drips.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #12   IP: 159.108.3.19
Old 09-30-2015, 03:53 PM
JimF JimF is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 19
Thanks: 9
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Removing the output coupling

Can someone describe what holds the output coupling on? This part has me fearful of cutting the shaft coupler off, I just ordered a new direct drive output coupler ( I have the split coupler for the shaft already), but I am afraid of damaging something between the two couplers in cutting the shaft coupler off.

I just am wondering what is between the two pieces, is there some sort of nut on the shaft side of the output coupler?
Reply With Quote
  #13   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 09-30-2015, 04:16 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,800
Thanks: 121
Thanked 154 Times in 129 Posts
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimF View Post
Can someone describe what holds the output coupling on? This part has me fearful of cutting the shaft coupler off, I just ordered a new direct drive output coupler ( I have the split coupler for the shaft already), but I am afraid of damaging something between the two couplers in cutting the shaft coupler off.

I just am wondering what is between the two pieces, is there some sort of nut on the shaft side of the output coupler?
If you have conceded the loss of the output coupling the plan is simplified. If you try to make a cut at the junction of the couplers with a sawzall or other such tool there is the risk of hitting the nut and shaft. From the look of that picture a better plan would be to first attack with cold chisel where the coupler is rusted and cracked with the view of destroying it and freeing the shaft. Then cut the heads off the three cap screws (forget ever getting a wrench on them). Next try to drive the chisel between the coupler halves with a view to separating them and exposing the remains of the screws.
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 12.172.250.194
Old 09-30-2015, 04:44 PM
tenders tenders is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlem YC, City Island, NY
Posts: 1,383
Thanks: 35
Thanked 204 Times in 134 Posts
I think there is too much metal there to break anything off with a cold chisel, except your sanity. I would not try to cut or chisel perpendicular to the shaft, or at the junction of the two couplers, for fear of cracking or distorting the face of the engine coupler or gouging the shaft. At least, not yet!

There is a nut in the center of the ENGINE coupler holding it to the engine. The nut is slightly inset from the face of the coupler, as I recall. But I'm guessing your engine coupler will clean up just fine after you get the shaft uncoupled; you should not have to perturb this nut nor replace that coupling for this job.

On the SHAFT coupler, there is a keyway with a square metal key locking it to the shaft, and there are likely one or more setscrews holding this key in the shaft/coupler keyway.

The bolts holding the couplings together are threaded into the engine coupler. One can imagine those bolts breaking off and needing to be drilled out - that won't be much fun. Getting those out is another reason to use the Sawzall - you might be able to unscrew them using the attached fragments of the coupler after you've cut the shaft out of it.

On my boat, I doubted the strength of the threads in the engine coupler, so I replaced the stock bolts with longer bolts that have nylock nuts in addition to being threaded into the engine coupler.

Finally, there may come a time at which the hours you spend trying to finesse this are simply not worth the finessement. Worst case: just cut the shaft; a replacement shouldn't cost more than $300. Get it out of there and you'll have more room to chop out the shaft coupler without damaging the engine coupler.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to tenders For This Useful Post:
Administrator (09-30-2015)
  #15   IP: 159.108.3.19
Old 10-05-2015, 10:58 AM
JimF JimF is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 19
Thanks: 9
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rusty coupler successfully removed - next problem

Thanks for all the advice, the hard part was getting the sleeve of the coupler off the shaft, once I did that, by cutting all the way around at the juncture of the sleeve and the bigger part of the coupler, I made two parallel cuts (very difficult), can't get the right tools at it because there isn't enough room. Best success was with a dremel with a 3 inch cutoff wheel. Cast iron is hard!

Pictures attached. my problem now is what is the trick to getting the output coupler off the tail shaft, I can get an open end wrench on it but the motor just spins when I turn it even in both forward and reverse gear. I had to leave at the point where I got to that (boat is in Maine and me in CT) so I didn't have much time to play with it. It looks like there is some kind of retainer on it, but even so I think I am going to have to lock the motor somehow in order to spin this nut off. Is there a retainer and how do you get that off, and how do you lock the motor, or is that nut on the output coupler reversed threaded?
Attached Images
  
Reply With Quote
  #16   IP: 12.172.250.194
Old 10-05-2015, 11:53 AM
tenders tenders is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlem YC, City Island, NY
Posts: 1,383
Thanks: 35
Thanked 204 Times in 134 Posts
So you can see why cutting those bolts off opens up the whole new problem of getting the engine coupler off so you can drill out the remains. It might have been worth it.

I haven't had to take that nut off on my boat (and I think the arrangement is slightly different on my V-drive). I would suggest trying to clamp the flywheel in place with a clamp or a Vise-Grip, locking it where you have some leverage on a big gear while you whale away on this little gear with your big wrench.

"Is that nut reverse threaded?" certainly is a very important question at this stage. I don't know the answer. Does the Moyer manual mention this? I don't have my copy handy.

(Also: is the shaft salvageable now that it has that cut in it across the keyway? I would say yes, for the way I use my engine, but some might feel otherwise.)
Reply With Quote
  #17   IP: 159.108.3.19
Old 10-05-2015, 12:03 PM
JimF JimF is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 19
Thanks: 9
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
My intention was to replace the output coupling rather than drill out the bolts.
This my desire to remove it. I think the shaft will be fine, the cut is all the way around but the real "grab" area is past where the cut is, and the cut is a tiny fraction of the total surface.
Reply With Quote
  #18   IP: 70.186.203.99
Old 10-05-2015, 12:05 PM
Tim's Avatar
Tim Tim is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Gloucester, VA
Posts: 159
Thanks: 38
Thanked 42 Times in 30 Posts
You will need to hold the output coupling with a large pipe wrench while attempting to remove the nut. Remember to straighten the tabs on the retaining washer first. The nut is very difficult to remove. I had to attach a 3 foot section of pipe to the end of my wrench to get enough leverage to break it free.
__________________
Pearson 10M
Gloucester, Va
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Tim For This Useful Post:
JimF (10-06-2015)
  #19   IP: 32.211.28.40
Old 10-05-2015, 05:49 PM
Al Schober's Avatar
Al Schober Al Schober is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Uncasville, CT
Posts: 1,665
Thanks: 9
Thanked 273 Times in 212 Posts
You can remove that nut just by drilling into it. Whether you drill on a radius or parallel to centerline, try to stay away from the threads in the transmission tailshaft. Two holes 180 apart will weaken the nut enough that it can be split with a chisel. Add a new nut and lock washer to your shopping list. While you're in there, also replace the seal.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Al Schober For This Useful Post:
JimF (10-06-2015)
  #20   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 10-05-2015, 07:37 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 8,950
Thanks: 162
Thanked 1,447 Times in 975 Posts
Why work so hard??
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...89&postcount=3
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ndutton For This Useful Post:
JimF (10-06-2015)
  #21   IP: 71.178.87.146
Old 10-05-2015, 08:52 PM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 6,687
Thanks: 657
Thanked 364 Times in 283 Posts
Ah, Jim F...now we are getting to where I can contribute. I tried a pipe wrench on the coupler flange, while I used a 4' pipe on my breaker bar. No good.

The impact wrench will likely solve the problem as Neil suggested. It took me longer to muscle the air compressor into the Jeep and get it out and run the extension cord than it did to break it loose...after wasting the entire afternoon before with aforementioned breaker bar.

There is a locking washer...notice the tab(s) that are bent over onto the nut flat. Bend those back vertical again, and put an impact wrench on that bad boy if you can, and it will come off.

I can't believe the thread below is 5 years old, but it is...start here and power thru the last couple pages real quick..the link I am giving you is exactly where you are right now.

I ended up replacing everything from the rear main seal back..but my seal was leaking anyway, so when I had shaft log damage to repair I yanked it all.

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...t=4044&page=12
__________________
-Shawn
"Twice Around" - '77 Catalina 30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold.
She is even happier with fresh paint on the topsides!

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif

Last edited by sastanley; 10-05-2015 at 09:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sastanley For This Useful Post:
Administrator (10-06-2015), JimF (10-06-2015)
  #22   IP: 159.108.3.19
Old 10-06-2015, 12:20 PM
JimF JimF is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 19
Thanks: 9
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
A new dilemma

So as I understand it, its pretty tough to get the nut holding the output coupler on. off I don't have access to an impact wrench, and I don't have much room to use extra leverage like a breaker bar. Though just cutting it in two places and splitting it off seems like it might be the play. However, after reading the thread that sastanley recommended, it seems like once I have the nut off, I still have a big job ahead of me to get the coupler off the tail shaft anyway, and I would need to be able to use the 3 holes that currently have cut off bolts in them to screw in long bolts to apply pressure to break it out.
SO it seems like it is worth drilling out the three bolts in place first, and if I can get them out without much damage to the threading in the holes, go ahead and re-use the old output coupler and not replace it. If I do this I won't have an opportunity to replace the seal behind it, but it isn't an issue right now. I do expect to have to get the beast out of the boat for an overhaul sometime in the next few years, last overhaul was in 1989. It was 16 years to its first overhaul and its now been 26 years, Though you never know, its running just fine and while I use the boat about 50 days(short Maine season), the motor only sees 30 to 40 hours of use a year. Even on a 5 day cruise this year I only had it on about 8 hours total.

So I think my next step should be to drill out those holes
Reply With Quote
  #23   IP: 71.118.13.238
Old 10-06-2015, 02:20 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lake Arrowhead Ca.
Posts: 4,234
Thanks: 486
Thanked 488 Times in 337 Posts
Jim, if it runs good what is the point of rebuilding? My engine is going on 45 years of uninterrupted service, IE it's original except for one exhaust valve which was replaced in 1983. Since then I have put on at least 200 hours a year and I have no idea before 1983 other than it did "bash" back once from Cabo before I had her.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #24   IP: 159.108.3.19
Old 10-06-2015, 02:48 PM
JimF JimF is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 19
Thanks: 9
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rebuilding

Right Dave, I have no intention of pulling the motor just for the hell of it, I just feel like someday the salt will finally take its toll.

Until I will just keep going, motor starts first time every time and purrs.
Someday it may not, if it ever does it's coming out because I already know of a few issues where things are getting dicey, manifold studs, water jacket bolt holes, if these things are going, how long until something more important goes? I love the motor but I dream of a new Moyer short block, and not worrying.
Reply With Quote
  #25   IP: 71.178.87.146
Old 10-06-2015, 10:34 PM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 6,687
Thanks: 657
Thanked 364 Times in 283 Posts
So, Jim..if you decide to drill out the old broken bolts...be careful to start small and slowly work up in size..then before you get into the threads in the coupling, hopefully you can use a pick of some sort to peel out the remaining pieces of bolt in the threads and be good to go!

I would also suggest a run thru with a tap to be sure they are clean.
__________________
-Shawn
"Twice Around" - '77 Catalina 30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold.
She is even happier with fresh paint on the topsides!

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
It started as a simple Cutless bearing replacement... cdhickey Drive Train / Propellers 8 05-02-2015 12:48 PM
Replacing the Prop Shaft onto the Coupling Bryanphaas Drive Train / Propellers 11 04-22-2014 02:00 PM
Nonstick shaft coupling reassembly rigspelt Drive Train / Propellers 8 01-09-2009 12:32 PM
Stripped Threads in Prop Shaft Coupling jkenan Overhaul 1 01-12-2006 01:50 PM
Oil in the bilge. Sailwood Troubleshooting 1 07-19-2005 02:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2020 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved