Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Fuel System

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 98.189.79.99
Old 12-11-2019, 06:26 PM
AFisch AFisch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Laguna Niguel
Posts: 72
Thanks: 77
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
Palmer P60

Hey All...so it was suggested I start a new thread here...

To back track...I have an old Columbia with a Palmer...been having shut down problems, have done all tests, spark, fuel filters, fuel pump, new fuel lines, compression, etc. Was still having an issue with the engine shutting down after a few minutes of running.

I have now taken off the Carb and it is an Old Zenith with no part number, but just orders a rebuild kit from Moyer that looks like it'll work. This should be arriving in the next week, so I will be sure to post an update after I clean it and get it back to factory good.

I hope you all find me on this thread!

Adam
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 97.93.70.7
Old 12-11-2019, 08:04 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lake Arrowhead Ca.
Posts: 4,234
Thanks: 486
Thanked 488 Times in 337 Posts
Any pics of t=your Zenith. Probably the same carb or at least very close. Is it a Series 67?

Your symptoms and troubles should be in direct comparison to the A-4. Similar size and style just a different manufacturer.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #3   IP: 97.93.70.7
Old 12-11-2019, 08:05 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lake Arrowhead Ca.
Posts: 4,234
Thanks: 486
Thanked 488 Times in 337 Posts
Got ya

Any pics of your Zenith. Probably the same carb or at least very close. Is it a Series 67?

Your symptoms and troubles should be in direct comparison to the A-4. Similar size and style just a different manufacturer.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 12-11-2019, 10:54 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 8,950
Thanks: 162
Thanked 1,447 Times in 975 Posts
Based on your description I'm sure a carburetor rebuild is in order but I'm doubtful it will solve your problem. It really sounds like contaminated fuel to me. Do you have a mechanical or electric fuel pump?

I suggest you search the forum to read up on testing with an auxiliary fuel tank.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #5   IP: 137.103.82.227
Old 12-12-2019, 09:31 AM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is online now
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,660
Thanks: 48
Thanked 493 Times in 363 Posts
Second that. I am about 90% sure your problem will persist. Did you ever check the fuel pressure?

Last edited by joe_db; 12-12-2019 at 09:33 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6   IP: 98.189.79.99
Old 12-12-2019, 12:02 PM
AFisch AFisch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Laguna Niguel
Posts: 72
Thanks: 77
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Based on your description I'm sure a carburetor rebuild is in order but I'm doubtful it will solve your problem. It really sounds like contaminated fuel to me. Do you have a mechanical or electric fuel pump?

I suggest you search the forum to read up on testing with an auxiliary fuel tank.
I replaced the fuel pump (electric pump), and also tested from an auxiliary 5 gallon jerry can of fresh fuel...this was before I took the carb off...the problem still happened when doing that.

And looking at the fuel coming out of the tank when checking the flow all the way down to the line going into the carb, it all looks clean and had a steady flow to it.

Adam
Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 98.189.79.99
Old 12-12-2019, 12:10 PM
AFisch AFisch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Laguna Niguel
Posts: 72
Thanks: 77
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
Any pics of t=your Zenith. Probably the same carb or at least very close. Is it a Series 67?

Your symptoms and troubles should be in direct comparison to the A-4. Similar size and style just a different manufacturer.

Dave Neptune
This is the only pic I have so far...I'll put it together and take a better pic.
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #8   IP: 98.117.4.37
Old 12-12-2019, 04:00 PM
Don Moyer's Avatar
Don Moyer Don Moyer is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,798
Thanks: 0
Thanked 96 Times in 52 Posts
Late model carb on Palmer P60

AFisch, For whatever it's worth, and if you can't resurrect your old carburetor, we do sell a handful of new Atomic 4 Zenith carburetors to Palmer P60 owners each year, and they work fine. https://moyermarine.com/product/carb...fcar_13-2_166/ .

The only complication is that original carburetors used on Palmer engines (as well as those on early model Atomic 4s) had internal scavenge tubes. So, to be Coast Guard legal, you'll need the additional adaptive parts listed in the product description in our catalog to provide a scavenge tube. This requirement will likely exist for any currently available new carburetor that would work on your Palmer P-60. You can call Ken at (610) 421-4436 for more information. Don
Reply With Quote
  #9   IP: 98.189.79.99
Old 12-12-2019, 04:16 PM
AFisch AFisch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Laguna Niguel
Posts: 72
Thanks: 77
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Moyer View Post
AFisch, For whatever it's worth, and if you can't resurrect your old carburetor, we do sell a handful of new Atomic 4 Zenith carburetors to Palmer P60 owners each year, and they work fine. https://moyermarine.com/product/carb...fcar_13-2_166/ .

The only complication is that original carburetors used on Palmer engines (as well as those on early model Atomic 4s) had internal scavenge tubes. So, to be Coast Guard legal, you'll need the additional adaptive parts listed in the product description in our catalog to provide a scavenge tube. This requirement will likely exist for any currently available new carburetor that would work on your Palmer P-60. You can call Ken at (610) 421-4436 for more information. Don
Thanks Don...I already bought the rebuild kit from your website for the early model carbs...should be arriving on the 18th and I will get to cleaning this one and putting it back together. If I have problems, I will certainly look to buying a new one.
Reply With Quote
  #10   IP: 97.93.70.7
Old 12-14-2019, 11:24 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lake Arrowhead Ca.
Posts: 4,234
Thanks: 486
Thanked 488 Times in 337 Posts
Aisch, be very careful cleaning out the idle circuit. The idle jet in this series carb is very small and could easily be plugged by a "spec" of debris.

Also do install the scavenge tube as it can eliminate a big bang or burn. It is a safety devise and it is very simple.

When you do try to start with the rebuilt carb do try using an auxiliary fuel tank and a gravity feed of a few feet will run her up enough to see if all is well. Once confirmed "good" then try feeding with the boats tank. If anything goes amiss do remove and flush the carb immediately. Probably no need to redo but you will at least know if the fuel in the tank is good~~somewhat important.

Do use new lines and freshen the filters for the rebuilt carb if it passes the auxiliary fuel test.

This is a perfect time to add a fuel pressure gage which can save much time diagnosing in the future.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dave Neptune For This Useful Post:
AFisch (12-16-2019)
  #11   IP: 137.103.82.227
Old 12-14-2019, 12:33 PM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is online now
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,660
Thanks: 48
Thanked 493 Times in 363 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
Second that. I am about 90% sure your problem will persist. Did you ever check the fuel pressure?
I think I changed my mind, that carb looks nasty
I would think about a new one IMHO. I had one that caused endless issues no matter how many times it was cleaned or rebuilt and I finally got Moyer to mail me a new one mid-cruise.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to joe_db For This Useful Post:
AFisch (12-16-2019)
  #12   IP: 98.189.79.99
Old 12-16-2019, 11:43 AM
AFisch AFisch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Laguna Niguel
Posts: 72
Thanks: 77
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
Aisch, be very careful cleaning out the idle circuit. The idle jet in this series carb is very small and could easily be plugged by a "spec" of debris.

Also do install the scavenge tube as it can eliminate a big bang or burn. It is a safety devise and it is very simple.

When you do try to start with the rebuilt carb do try using an auxiliary fuel tank and a gravity feed of a few feet will run her up enough to see if all is well. Once confirmed "good" then try feeding with the boats tank. If anything goes amiss do remove and flush the carb immediately. Probably no need to redo but you will at least know if the fuel in the tank is good~~somewhat important.

Do use new lines and freshen the filters for the rebuilt carb if it passes the auxiliary fuel test.

This is a perfect time to add a fuel pressure gage which can save much time diagnosing in the future.

Dave Neptune
Thanks Dave...I like the idea of testing the rebuilt carb with the auxillary tank first...I am also going to replace all spark plugs and will change all filters again as well. And I'll get that pressure gauge installed too.

Adam
Reply With Quote
  #13   IP: 98.189.79.99
Old 12-16-2019, 11:47 AM
AFisch AFisch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Laguna Niguel
Posts: 72
Thanks: 77
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
Hey Dave Neptune...in the other Palmer Thread you mentioned to me:

"Do not trade in your carb yet, will get to why later if you go further."

I feel like I am further now...and after your recent suggestion as well as Joe-DB and Don's recent comments, I am now thinking I just get a new Carb...Should I still go for the rebuild or maybe just replace?

I will call Moyer and see if I can return the rebuild kit (which is supposed to arrive to me on the 18th) and see if I can just get a new carb.

Adam
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 97.93.70.7
Old 12-16-2019, 12:22 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lake Arrowhead Ca.
Posts: 4,234
Thanks: 486
Thanked 488 Times in 337 Posts
AFisch, you have a cast iron carb like the older A-4's used. They are an excellent carb and lend themselves to rebuilding quite well as long as the halves match and there are no rusted out sealing surfaces. The CI will rust and the rust can be cleaned out whereas the alloy bodies can create all kinds of "oxidation & pitting" which is no good and hard to clean or repair.

If you have the "original" carb it is a good thing because the metering for the P-60 will be in it. You can get the numbers and do a good match. RE the new A-4 carb the metering should be almost the same as the P-60 as they are about the same duty (HP) and displacement. No real worries with operation if a god carb is supplied like from MMI. And you will need to install the scavenge tube which is no biggie as it is just a standard 1/8" copper tube that it breaths through externally on the A-4 late model.

I have always recommended using a "top oil" in these old engines and MMO works fine if it is your preference. I prefer a newer synthetic grade of 2-stroke oil that is designed to burn with fuel, it is graded as "TC-W3". I used it in my ole beastie for 34 years with no issues. I mixed about 1 oz. per gallon which is 128 to 1 and creates no smoke. I recommend going to a richer mix if your engine tends to have sticky valves.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dave Neptune For This Useful Post:
AFisch (12-16-2019)
  #15   IP: 72.69.36.126
Old 12-19-2019, 05:38 AM
tenders tenders is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlem YC, City Island, NY
Posts: 1,383
Thanks: 35
Thanked 204 Times in 134 Posts
By "metering," Dave, I think you're referring to the jet sizes in the carburetor? Those are visible when you remove the brass jets and look very carefully at the tiny numbers engraved on the side. I have to use my iPhone to take photos of these numbers and zoom in on the photos.

By "top oil" Dave is referring to a bit of oil you add to the gasoline - as opposed to the crankcase or transmission - like we used to do with two-stroke engines before they started coming with automatic oil injection systems. Many people including me use Marvel Mystery Oil this way and it's been flawless in stopping a sporadic sticking valve situation in my engine.

If MMO is not your thing, or if you need something more viscous for whatever reason, I've been fussing around with two-stroke scooter engines over the past year and can confirm that modern oils like TC-W3 create FAR FAR less smoke than the old oils used to, just 10 years ago. There is an even less smoky Japanese oil standard called JASO, which you can buy on Amazon. Modern two-stroke scooter engines use it - and yes, there are modern two-stroke engines being sold today that conform to US emissions laws.

https://www.oilspecifications.org/jaso.php
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to tenders For This Useful Post:
Administrator (12-19-2019)
  #16   IP: 32.211.28.40
Old 12-19-2019, 09:28 AM
Al Schober's Avatar
Al Schober Al Schober is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Uncasville, CT
Posts: 1,665
Thanks: 9
Thanked 273 Times in 212 Posts
Anyone else miss the odor of two stroke engines using castor oil? I remember going to the motorcycle races at Bridgestone, UK when a fragrant fog would envelop the crowd. Then there was my neighbor's two stroke Saab...
Reply With Quote
  #17   IP: 97.93.70.7
Old 12-19-2019, 10:02 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lake Arrowhead Ca.
Posts: 4,234
Thanks: 486
Thanked 488 Times in 337 Posts
Wink Ah Castor oil and purple fuel

Al, I do remember the Castor oil smell. As I remember the Castor oil did not want to stay mixed very well either. I also am seeing a few using Castor oil again in ethanol fuels and alcohol assisted engines as the Castor will stay mixed in ethanol fuels.

All fuel are much "drier" today which is why we see harder materials being used in the valve train and rings. These harder materials wear a bit better with the drier fuels and top oiling is becoming popular in the performance market and with economy/longevity buffs like myself. I have been running the TC-W3 oil in my last 4 vehicles, a 32V Intec, an LT1 and my current Dodge hemi. The Intec went 260K, the Vette 365K and the Hemi has 165K and still purring. When I sold the cars they were still not using hardly any oil and ran strong.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dave Neptune For This Useful Post:
sastanley (12-29-2019)
  #18   IP: 98.189.79.99
Old 12-19-2019, 12:10 PM
AFisch AFisch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Laguna Niguel
Posts: 72
Thanks: 77
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
I got my re-build kit delivered yesterday!!

I will hopefully be tackling the cleaning and re-building the carb tonight or in the next day or so.

Quick question...I took the flame arrestor off...when putting it back on, should I use any type of sealant or tape around the join?

Same question for the oil dipstick tube that I had to remove to get access to the carb in the first place. (Wish I had a pic to show you what I am talking about).

Adam
Reply With Quote
  #19   IP: 97.93.70.7
Old 12-19-2019, 12:50 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lake Arrowhead Ca.
Posts: 4,234
Thanks: 486
Thanked 488 Times in 337 Posts
AFisch, no sealant on the carb stuff.. The dip-stick tube will seal well with a bit of Permatex aviation grade or #2.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dave Neptune For This Useful Post:
AFisch (12-20-2019)
  #20   IP: 97.93.70.7
Old 12-19-2019, 12:56 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lake Arrowhead Ca.
Posts: 4,234
Thanks: 486
Thanked 488 Times in 337 Posts
Caution

Adam, do take a lot of care setting he float. It is a 2 step setting~~first is the height of the float for fuel level, then be sure that the float is parallel to the body when measuring. This takes a bit of patience and do not twist the tabs against the floats use 2 narrow pliers and just tweek the tabs.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dave Neptune For This Useful Post:
AFisch (12-20-2019)
  #21   IP: 107.131.11.88
Old 12-20-2019, 04:52 PM
AFisch AFisch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Laguna Niguel
Posts: 72
Thanks: 77
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
Ok, I think I got it cleaned out as best as possible...

Have it all put back together and will be heading down tomorrow to re-install.

Wish me luck!
Adam
Reply With Quote
  #22   IP: 107.131.11.88
Old 12-21-2019, 12:41 AM
AFisch AFisch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Laguna Niguel
Posts: 72
Thanks: 77
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
Well...Update. Turns out my wife wanted to take the kids to the park with a bunch of extra Mom's/Kids...so I ran down to the boat, re-hooked up the carb, ran from an Auxiliary tank and Viola...she ran fantastic! Shut her down and hooked up to the fuel tank, fired right back up with no problems. Let it run for well over an hour.

So back track to when I was cleaning/rebuilding carb...one of the floats was bent. Not only did I bend it back into place (carefully), but also cleaned out the whole carb thoroughly.

Leading me back to my inclination that for some reason the carb was not getting anymore gas after it used up what was in the bowl.

Should be a good day for sailing tomorrow, we are finally going to take her out again and see how things hold up.

Thank you everyone for your input and guidance... I will keep you posted how it all goes.
Reply With Quote
  #23   IP: 70.185.132.167
Old 12-21-2019, 01:56 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is online now
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,208
Thanks: 39
Thanked 615 Times in 461 Posts
Good to hear the engine is running normally. These sort of victories are always sweet. I've been through a few of these engine drills myself. Back in the "good old days" there was no Moyer forum and no internet for guidance.

It probably has been mentioned already...... What is your fuel filter system?
At a minimum there should be some sort of filter between the tank and fuel pump to catch the bigger particles and a "polishing filter" between the fuel pump and carburetor to stop the smaller particles.

ex TRUE GRIT
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to JOHN COOKSON For This Useful Post:
AFisch (12-21-2019), Dave Neptune (12-21-2019), thatch (12-21-2019)
  #24   IP: 107.131.11.88
Old 12-21-2019, 04:45 PM
AFisch AFisch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Laguna Niguel
Posts: 72
Thanks: 77
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
Good to hear the engine is running normally. These sort of victories are always sweet. I've been through a few of these engine drills myself. Back in the "good old days" there was no Moyer forum and no internet for guidance.

It probably has been mentioned already...... What is your fuel filter system?
At a minimum there should be some sort of filter between the tank and fuel pump to catch the bigger particles and a "polishing filter" between the fuel pump and carburetor to stop the smaller particles.

ex TRUE GRIT
Thank you...yes, little victories mean the most!

As for the fuel filter system...It is actually reversed from the previous owner, but only for reasons of they way everything fits in the engine compartment. There is a small filter between the fuel pump and tank, and then the Raycor fuel/water separator between the pump and the carburetor. I will reverse this order this weekend, and add a fuel pressure gauge as well...

Thanks everyone here for all the help...without you guys and youtube, I would have been lost!

Adam
Reply With Quote
  #25   IP: 107.77.97.117
Old 12-21-2019, 06:04 PM
lat 64's Avatar
lat 64 lat 64 is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
Posts: 1,936
Thanks: 35
Thanked 202 Times in 131 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Schober View Post
Anyone else miss the odor of two stroke engines using castor oil? I remember going to the motorcycle races at Bridgestone, UK when a fragrant fog would envelop the crowd. Then there was my neighbor's two stroke Saab...
My brother had a Saab 96 two-stroke. The factory stage-one racing mod was just cut off the exhaust pipe about 16 inches from the exhaust ports". That's all.
I still have three new pistons for that engine and some cans of oil in my junk pile out under the snow.
Saabs were big up here because they got stuck less than the average Dodge dart.
Great ski trip mobile too.
__________________
Whiskeyjack a '68 Columbia 36 rebuilt A-4 with 2:1

"Since when is napping doing nothing?"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
electronic Ignition for Palmer P-60 jerry creager Ignition System 3 09-29-2014 09:40 AM
Palmer P-60 For Sale tangaroa3 For Sale - Engines and Engine Parts 2 02-20-2014 02:43 PM
Carb For Palmer P60 - Same as Atomic 4? bpowdrell Fuel System 3 08-29-2012 08:58 AM
Palmer p-60 problem Jerry C Troubleshooting 4 06-03-2011 03:58 PM
Palmer P60 out and ready to be sold... Amorita34 For Sale - Engines and Engine Parts 1 02-27-2009 09:51 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2020 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved