Engine Shutdown

[BlueWhale]

I was out sailing in the Baltimore Inner Harbor back in December. I motored out for about 20 minutes and my engine shutdown and would not restart. So. I sailed back to the slip figuring my carburetor was clogged. I recently got around to removing and cleaning out the carburetor. I took Rekofa out yesterday and she ran fine. I ran the engine for a good 30 inutes before heading out and continued to motor for another 45 minutes at least before shutting off the engine and raising the sails. I sailed for a couple of hours before heading to the turning basin to drop my sails and motor back to the slip. All was going well and suddenly the engine shutdown and I was unable to restart it. My plan is to change my filters and adjust/clean the main jet. I'm thinking I have some sediment in the fuel tank that's coming up when I sail. I also recently switched to an electronic ignition system. Just wondering if there was anything I might be overlooking.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[Al Schober]

Blue,
Clean fuel is a good thing. If the stuff in the tank isn't clean, filters can help for a while. Be advised that your fuel pickup tube doesn't go to the bottom of the tank - there could be a couple of quarts of nasty stuff down there waiting to head to your engine. With my boat, I go in through the fill with a long tube & manual pump and pump from the bottom into a jug - see what's there.
I'm also thinking your coil may be acting up. Failing coils will work fine while cool, fail when they get hot, then work again when they cool off. Do a search, and you'll find a lot of info on coils, voltages, dropping resistors, etc. Going to EI seems to add to the coil problems rather than eliminate them.

[JOHN COOKSON]

Brian
Next time you have a shut down pull the center wire out of the distributor and hold it near the engine while someone cranks the engine. A 1" blue-white arc is good. Then we will know if the problem is on the fuel side or the ignition side and what to do next.

TRUE GRIT

Edit: Mechanical or electric fuel pump on your engine?

[joe_db]

There are a ton of threads on this. A failing coil will do what you are seeing as well as fuel issues.

[ndutton]

I think good information right now is please describe in detail the steps you took installing the electronic ignition. Did you take it out of the box, install it inside the distributor and call it good or was there more involved?

[thatch]

Brian, Your shut-down conditions sound similar to what happened during my maiden voyage on my boat which was a two day "motor trip" from San Pedro to Oxnard Ca. After the first day in rather rough conditions, I limped into Marina Del Rey with the A4 barely running. Subsequent inspection showed considerable gunk in the filter, fuel pump and carb. After cleaning those parts she ran fine for the second leg to Oxnard. Years later, after changing to a Moeler "poly tank", I discovered that the solvent action of the alcohol laced fuel had completely cleaned the inside of the original aluminum tank. For checking to see if I have ignition spark I use a "fifth" spark plug that is stored on the top of the lifting ring on the engine. I find it quick and easy to simply unplug one wire and connect it to that plug to verify that there is spark.
Tom

[tenders]

My thesis would be that the new ignition system is stressing an old coil. The likelihood of this based on your symptoms, the ease with which a coil can be swapped out, and the high-sounding probability that the coil's age is undetermined anyway, would lead me to order the Moyer coil, replace it, and not think about the other potential causes unless and until the symptom returns.

The Moyer coil has the right internal resistance, a characteristic that has been debated extensively here. You might be able to flail around and find a cheaper solution somewhere, but unless you enjoy poking around with a multimeter and potentially adding the complexity of identifying and installing an external resistor, I'd say the dollar cost savings cannot possibly be worth the time and peace-of-mind of the Moyer solution.

Once you get this ironed out you will find that the electronic ignition system is as smooth as silk, and as low-maintenance on your boat as it is on your car. It is a huge upgrade over analog points-and-condenser. But you do need to have a compatible coil.

[BunnyPlanet169]

Brian: I'm also thinking coil rather than fuel, especially as you recently switched to EI.

When the engine just quits (like you turned the key), but restarts without issue sometime later, I think coil (or electrical). If the engine sputters or dies dies slowly, and then restarts shortly thereafter only to do the same thing again, I think fuel.

Neil is hinting around what Tenders has suggested to replace right away - if the original points system coil is not matched in resistance to the operational parameters of the new EI, then you can and will have coil problems. They may start intermittently, or it may simply fail and never recover. Did you replace the coil when you did the EI conversion?

[ndutton]

Originally Posted by BunnyPlanet169

Neil is hinting around what Tenders has suggested to replace [the coil] right away

In a way you're right, I was headed down the well worn path of ignition coil overheating and resultant damage. However, as of yet we don't know if Brian researched the electronic ignition discussions on this forum and followed their recommendations already. If he did, the discussion turns right back to fuel.

I thought I'd ask before jumping to a conclusion. His reported symptom is half the typical coil failure scenario for sure. The part that's missing - or unreported - is then it started again after about 30 minutes.

[joe_db]

Originally Posted by ndutton

In a way you're right, I was headed down the well worn path of ignition coil overheating and resultant damage. However, as of yet we don't know if Brian researched the electronic ignition discussions on this forum and followed their recommendations already. If he did, the discussion turns right back to fuel.

I thought I'd ask before jumping to a conclusion. His reported symptom is half the typical coil failure scenario for sure. The part that's missing - or unreported - is then it started again after about 30 minutes.

My bad coils would do that. They would heat-fail-cool-work for awhile until they died for good. I also had fuel issues that would do that to add to the confusion. This is why I have so many gauges, I needed them to track down the issues.
HINT: Right when it dies, if you spray a little bit of ether in the carb and hit the starter, a fuel starved engine will run for 10-20 seconds on ether and an engine with no spark will not start.

[ndutton]

Absolutely correct Joe. Many of the engine shut down stories on this forum had certain symptoms in common (runs for an hour, shuts down, doesn't restart for a half hour, restarts, runs for 45 minutes, shuts down again). The common assumption back then was fuel but cleaning up the fuel systems didn't solve the problem.

Another factor in common was a recent upgrade to electronic ignition. My very first post asked the question, If electronic ignition is so great, why does everyone hang onto their points plate to reinstall and limp home after it fails?

And so it went . . . .

[BlueWhale]

Back to the boat today. I'm thinking fuel issue. I replaced the coil last year with one from Moyer. I sailed a few times last season with the new coil and EI without issue. I just checked my choke cable and found it to be loose. Not sure if that was impacting the issue but I adjusted and tightened it anyway. I was able to get her started after several attempts and she's been running fine for the last 30 minutes. I'm trying to replicate the problem. Nonetheless, my next steps are to swap out the filters and check fuel. I still have an aluminum tank. I would like to replace it but I can't figure out how to remove it or get a large enough tank in. Thanks for all the advice. I'll keep you posted.

Hopeful Brian, out!

[ndutton]

As mentioned previously, a recently replaced Moyer coil directs the discussion back to fuel as you suspect. It does not completely eliminate the coil though. Please make a simple ohms test across the two small posts on the coil with the wires removed from one of the posts, whichever is the easiest, and report back. We are looking for around 4.3 ohms.

[JOHN COOKSON]

Just to be through take voltage reading at coil + when the engine is running on the off chance the alternator is kicking out to may volts.

TRUE GRIT

[BlueWhale]

Originally Posted by ndutton

In a way you're right, I was headed down the well worn path of ignition coil overheating and resultant damage. However, as of yet we don't know if Brian researched the electronic ignition discussions on this forum and followed their recommendations already. If he did, the discussion turns right back to fuel.

I thought I'd ask before jumping to a conclusion. His reported symptom is half the typical coil failure scenario for sure. The part that's missing - or unreported - is then it started again after about 30 minutes.

Nope, she's not restarting. At best she'll restart for maybe 5 seconds.

[Dave Neptune]

Brian, when she does not start does she have spark?

Also are you checking the filter(s) to see if or what they are plugging with?

If you indeed think you may have a compromised tank try a temporary one!! A simple OB tank is easy to adapt and will provide you with a good deal of info.

Did you "take the carb apart" for a thorough cleaning with a good cleaner and compressed air?

Dave Neptune

[BlueWhale]

Originally Posted by ndutton

As mentioned previously, a recently replaced Moyer coil directs the discussion back to fuel as you suspect. It does not completely eliminate the coil though. Please make a simple ohms test across the two small posts on the coil with the wires removed from one of the posts, whichever is the easiest, and report back. We are looking for around 4.3 ohms.

Well, finally back to the boat. I bought an ohm meter and checked the coil as directed. It read 0. I checked with the ignition switch on and off with the same result. It appears that the coil needs to be replaced. Hopefully, what I have been experiencing is a slowly deteriorating coil. My question is could the burned out coil be a secondary issue? Is it possible I burned out the coil in my many attempts to start the engine? Nonetheless, I will be ordering a replacement from Moyer. Perhaps I can get a credit for the one I purchased last spring which makes me wonder why it went bad in the first place. Was there a problem with the coil; is the electronic ignition creating the problem; or is there a whole other issue?

[BlueWhale]

Originally Posted by Dave Neptune

Brian, when she does not start does she have spark?

Also are you checking the filter(s) to see if or what they are plugging with?

If you indeed think you may have a compromised tank try a temporary one!! A simple OB tank is easy to adapt and will provide you with a good deal of info.

Did you "take the carb apart" for a thorough cleaning with a good cleaner and compressed air?

Dave Neptune

I removed the fuel line from the carburetor and the fuel flows freely. I cleaned the carb thoroughly. At some point I will have to address the fuel tank.

[Dave Neptune]

Brian, how did you clean the carb? IE did you take it completely part and blow out the two circuits, especially the idle side with a very small jet and passage.

Also a possibility is that when putting the halves back together are you absolutely sure that the emulsion well is totally sealed~very important. An inspection of the gasket should show a detent all the way around the well. If not the internal air leak will raise havoc especially on the idle side!!! Did you use a NEW gasket??

A brief description of the "cleaning" may help too.

Dave Neptune

[BlueWhale]

Originally Posted by Dave Neptune

Brian, how did you clean the carb? IE did you take it completely part and blow out the two circuits, especially the idle side with a very small jet and passage.

Also a possibility is that when putting the halves back together are you absolutely sure that the emulsion well is totally sealed~very important. An inspection of the gasket should show a detent all the way around the well. If not the internal air leak will raise havoc especially on the idle side!!! Did you use a NEW gasket??

A brief description of the "cleaning" may help too.

Dave Neptune

I took it completely apart and cleaned it as described in Moyer's A4 manual. However, I did not replace the gasket. I will get a new gasket and reassemble, as well as getting a new coil.

Thanks

[BlueWhale]

Originally Posted by BlueWhale

I was out sailing in the Baltimore Inner Harbor back in December. I motored out for about 20 minutes and my engine shutdown and would not restart. So. I sailed back to the slip figuring my carburetor was clogged. I recently got around to removing and cleaning out the carburetor. I took Rekofa out yesterday and she ran fine. I ran the engine for a good 30 inutes before heading out and continued to motor for another 45 minutes at least before shutting off the engine and raising the sails. I sailed for a couple of hours before heading to the turning basin to drop my sails and motor back to the slip. All was going well and suddenly the engine shutdown and I was unable to restart it. My plan is to change my filters and adjust/clean the main jet. I'm thinking I have some sediment in the fuel tank that's coming up when I sail. I also recently switched to an electronic ignition system. Just wondering if there was anything I might be overlooking.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks.

After a day of tinkering I've made hardly any progress on an accurate diagnosis of my issue. I replaced the water separator filter and replaced the flange gasket on the carb. I checked the coil with an ohm meter by removing the negative lead and testing, with ignition on and off. The meter read 0 both times. However, after I changed the filter and the gasket I turned her over several times and she ran for a few seconds. Each time she abruptly shut down. So, now I'm not sure I tested the coil properly. I'm ordering a new internal gasket for the carburetor and secondary filter (perhaps a new coil also). I have an external fuel tank from my outboard to try bypassing the old gas. BTW the fuel in the old filter was very dirty and the filter pretty gritty. Can I get some advice on how to connect the OB tank to the engine? I'll be back at it on Wednesday.

Thanks

[pknier]

Check your key switch to rule that out...speaking from experience after days of what you are doing. may have connection in start position, but none in run position

[nreeves]

I am going to throw this out there as I went through a similar goose chase last year, replacing the coil, fuel lines and a long list of trouble shooting. It ended up being the Oil Pressure Safety Switch (Thanks True Grit!). You can bypass the OPSS and see if the symptoms still occur.

http://www.moyermarine.com//forums/s...?t=9074&page=2

Worth a shot?!

[JOHN COOKSON]

Originally Posted by BlueWhale

I just checked my choke cable and found it to be loose. Not sure if that was impacting the issue but I adjusted and tightened it anyway. I was able to get her started after several attempts and she's been running fine for the last 30 minutes.
Hopeful Brian, out!

Brian
Did you get the choke adjusted correctly? Is it closing and opening all the way?
Checking the OPSS (if you have an electronic fuel pump) is a good thought and it is easy to bypass or short across. I had one fail in a progressive manner that kept me guessing for awhile.
MMI won't accept returns on electrical parts.
There is no way to prove or disprove the conditions they were operated under. Here's a couple of examples related to the coil: (A) May the key was left on for awhile when the engine wasn't running and burned out the coil. (B) Maybe the regulator was not working correctly and kicking out to many volts (See post #14)
One final thought that I don't know the answer to: If the coil truly has zero ohms resistance would it be passing so many amps that it damaged the EI? Ken would know the answer to this question.

TRUE GRIT

[BlueWhale]

First, thanks a million for all of the advice. It was very helpful and increased my understanding of how my engine operates. I was able to attach an outboard fuel tank to the fuel pump. With fresh fuel, same issue, the engine wouldn't start. So, I'm figuring it's the carburetor. I removed the fuel line from the fuel pump to the carburetor and fuel was flowing fine. I ordered new gaskets for the carburetor, took it apart as described in Moyer's A4 manual, and cleaned it thoroughly. Reassembled and connected to outboard fuel tank. She started right up and has been running for the past 30 minutes. Evidently the carburetor was fouled. It could be bad fuel in the main tank or the bad gasket that I didn't replace. Whatever the case my next project is to pump out all the fuel in the main tank and attempt to clean it. I've followed a couple of threads on best methods. We'll see how it works out. I must have been using the ohm meter incorrectly to give me a 0 reading. Ken at Moyer parts suggested as much. My only problem now is that when I re-installed the carburetor one of the bolts that attaches the carburetor to the engine broke. I'm not looking forward to the next time I have to take the carburetor off. But for now, I'm happy. Thanks again Afourians 😊👍🏾👏🏿