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Old 10-21-2013, 11:41 PM
jkenan jkenan is offline
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A4 Runs fine for hours then gets rough

I've been following other posts here on similar issues of rough running, and think there is some great feedback/responses here. My issue seems unique (at least in posts I've found) since the engine runs strong for a substantial period - a couple of hours at least - and then starts to run rough with misfiring, rough running, and even stalling on occasion. I can always restart the engine after stalling, and sometimes it runs great after restarting, but not always. And the symptoms always come back, eventually. This issue has persisted for years, and I have not been able to resolve it regardless of any measure I take.

Some background: Late model A4, completely rebuilt in 2006 with most upgrades from Moyer (and some from Indigo) - FWC, Ignitor EI, Facet Electric fuel pump, crankcase ventilator, and this year new wires, plugs, rotor and EI cap. Also added a new coil with ballast resistor from Indigo. I have zero overheating issues - the engine runs consistently at 180 degrees. I have cleaned the carb, but really found no issue there. During the latest episode this past weekend, I suspected the flame arrestor (the circular one Moyer used to sell but don't see it available currently) may have become too clogged with crankcase vapor so I 'loosened' it thinking air intake was the issue (even tried running the engine with the compartment cover off), but still no improvement. I use ethanol free gas, with appropriate MMO added.

Some things I have not done (and now that I'm home and three hours away from the boat I realize I should have done): Replaced Racor Fuel filter (2 years old now), drained water from racer filter, replaced inline fuel filter between fuel pump and carb.

My gut tells me it is an electrical issue, but what is causing it eludes me. It also feels like it could be sticking valves (but why stick after 2 hours of running fine?) or water in the fuel (but why would water get introduced after 2 hours of running fine?). Why would it run fine for hours, well beyond the engine/compartment coming up to temp, and then run badly? I also feel it could be a temp issue, where some electrical component becomes compromised after enough exposure to a 180 degree engine. Could a compromised wire/connection/component run fine for a while, but become compromised after a couple hours exposure to an engine running at 180 (that's why I replaced the coil, and am tempted to replace the EI too, but already too much $$$)? I'm at a loss, and would appreciate any feedback.

Thanks in advance,

John
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:21 AM
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Two thoughts John

. . . and they are unrelated.

Have you replaced the wiring harness? I know you said new wires but I interpreted it as spark plug wires. If the harness has not been replaced, it's at least 30 years old with the possibility of any variety of corrosion/high resistance/poor connection problems.

Try running next time with the deck fill cap removed (maybe compromised tank vent).
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:46 AM
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How's your oil pressure when the engine gets good and warm?

A guess: your oil pressure switch gets flaky when the engine gets hot and the oil pressure gets lower, erratically starving the engine of fuel.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:55 AM
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Thumbs up Agree

j, Neil & tenders hit on a couple of possibilities. I'd have a jumper wire ready to "hot wire" the ignition next time this "missing~rough running" happens. If you clip it on and the engine smooths out it's the wiring and or possibly the OPSS. You can check for voltage at the resistor for proper voltage while running as well. If you see fluctuations it's the wiring.

I doubt it is fuel or carb related from your info so far.

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Old 10-22-2013, 10:17 PM
jkenan jkenan is offline
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Thanks for the replies - I think these are all good suggestions.

The wiring harness is only a few years old. I did a total refit on the boat back in '08-'09, and replaced all electrical. I didn't use Ancor wire, but a less-expensive wire I found online at bestboatwire.com. All tinned wire, and manufactured to same specs as ancor. Terminals all still look good, so don't think that is it. The EI is almost 10 years old now, so perhaps the wires there are beginning to short out? The cap and rotor are brand new. I will definitely try the jumper when it starts acting up again - great suggestion.

Oil pressure is solid, and has been. I hate to admit it, but I have bypassed my OPSS, so fuel pump is running directly from the coil. If jumper corrects running performance, then it is definitely wires in the harness, and I'll buy Ancor wire next time.

Fuel vent is definitely something I will check next time I'm down. I suspected oxygen starvation and so removed the flame arrestor, but didn't consider fuel starvation. That would explain why it starts misbehaving after a few hours running.

It will be a couple weeks before I'm back down, and will update this group if these measures identify the culprit (and if they don't!). Thanks again.
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Old 10-22-2013, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkenan View Post
The wiring harness is only a few years old. I did a total refit on the boat back in '08-'09, and replaced all electrical. . . . . . . so don't think that is it.
It's funny how once you think something can't be the cause, hundreds of dollars and countless hours later it turns out to be exactly that. It's like the assumption jinxes you.

Go ahead and look elsewhere but keep the wiring in the back of your mind, just in case. Don't discount it completely just yet. It's only assumed good, not fully determined to be good. Wiring means components too (ign switch, buss bars, fuses).

Based on the symptoms I don't think it's a wiring issue either but that's not conclusive. This post has more to do with assumptions during troubleshooting.
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Old 10-23-2013, 12:26 AM
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i wonder if it is something stopping fuel flow.

A clogged vent. Something in the tank that gets sucked over the pick up?

If it starts right up, the traditional Spark? Fuel? compression? does not really work.
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Old 10-23-2013, 03:36 AM
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Do you have a squeeze bulb in the fuel line? Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 10-23-2013, 09:39 AM
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John, now I'm remembering the refit of your 29 that you described on the ericsonyachts.com website as you were doing it...wow.

This guy is not messing around.
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Old 10-23-2013, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
It's funny how once you think something can't be the cause, hundreds of dollars and countless hours later it turns out to be exactly that. It's like the assumption jinxes you.

Go ahead and look elsewhere but keep the wiring in the back of your mind, just in case. Don't discount it completely just yet. It's only assumed good, not fully determined to be good. Wiring means components too (ign switch, buss bars, fuses).

Based on the symptoms I don't think it's a wiring issue either but that's not conclusive. This post has more to do with assumptions during troubleshooting.
This is certainly a possibility..I removed all the engine wiring and replaced with tinned wire and bus bars two seasons ago...turns out I had a loose screw terminal powering my coil. The engine fired right up for 15 seconds, the vibration of the engine caused a short, and the coil could not stay energized. A digital meter never picked up the fluctuations in voltage, so I kept chasing a fuel problem to the tune of a new carb before I tightened that terminal and solved my issue..that new carb is nice and shiny though.

However, I am also in the possibly clogged vent club..after a couple hours there is a vacuum in the tank and the pump can't maintain fuel pressure...a $13 fuel pressure gauge at the carb could confirm or deny fuel delivery.
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Old 10-23-2013, 03:12 PM
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I had a coil failure a couple of years ago that showed similar symptoms. The A4 ran fine for 2-3 hours and then started missing. The missing would get worse until the A4 quit altogether. It would usually start right back up but wouldn't run for very long before quitting again. After a long cool down, it would be back to normal. When motoring less than 2 hours, no issues. A new coil from Moyer solved the problem and it's been fine ever since.
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Old 10-23-2013, 04:41 PM
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Vent lines should be reamed out at the beginning of each season. Bugs and mud daubers and such like to build nests in them during the lay up season.
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Old 10-23-2013, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenders View Post
John, now I'm remembering the refit of your 29 that you described on the ericsonyachts.com website as you were doing it...wow.

This guy is not messing around.
Thanks Tenders! The refit was a great project. I learned a ton, and the end result is a boat that is joy to sail for my family and me! I actually renamed the boat 'Carried Away' because the project started as just a bottom job, but then...
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Old 10-23-2013, 11:54 PM
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No bulb installed. I will check fuel vent lines for blockage, and am leaning towards thinking this is more likely the issue given the solid performance for a while and then deteriorates. I thought the coil was the issue - the old one had some hairline cracks in it (engine had some overheating issues at one point) and had been in service for years. I replaced it this season, but that did not resolve anything. I have double row terminal strips in the engine compartment, and have sprayed those down with an anti-corrosion spray in the past. May be time to do it again. Have not heard anyone suspicious of the EI - are there any components there that should replaced? I know Don sells a magnetic ring for that unit. As mentioned, I will try jumper. Should I jump battery positive to coil positive only, or should I also jump battery negative to coil negative?
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Old 10-24-2013, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkenan View Post
As mentioned, I will try jumper. Should I jump battery positive to coil positive only, or should I also jump battery negative to coil negative?
No, non, nein, nyet, negatory.

The coil '-' terminal is not a ground and should not be grounded - - EVER!! It is the terminal that receives - - and I'm being very careful NOT to call it a ground - - the signal from the EI (or points). Connecting a ground wire to it will defeat ignition function and ultimately damage the coil.

I really wish the terminal was called something other than '-'. It's a frequent source of misconception.
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Last edited by ndutton; 10-24-2013 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:11 PM
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Got it! And thanks for the helpful explanation of how the 'dark side' of the coil works. Even after tearing the A4 down to the last bolt and rebuilding it, it still amazes me how much I still have yet to learn about it

The great thing about these engines is they keep us engaged maintaining them. If I had a diesel chances are I'd have to to hire out the heavy lifting.

Thanks for all the feedback!
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:11 PM
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Coil

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Old 10-26-2013, 04:15 AM
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pcv failure or clog...for Neils sake!
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Old 01-03-2014, 10:15 PM
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Finally got back down to the boat after 2 months. Notwithstanding it was blowing 40 knots today, I did manage to get the boat from mooring to dock without incident.

So, back to the topic of the engine running fine for hours, then running rough/loss of power: Checked the fuel line, no clogs there. When I started the engine back at the dock with the intention of letting run for as long as it took until the roughness started up again, I did so with the engine cover removed. I noticed immediately that smoke was continuously coming out of the the #1 cylinder plug hole. As the the engine warmed, the smoke subsided somewhat, but never diminished completely. Then I noticed a black soot around the base of the plug itself, so and also around plug #2 but less so. I have attached an image of the plugs removed - Left is #1, then going right to #4. Notice that #1 is heavily sooted around the base, and #2 less so, but still more than #3 and #4. Then look at the gaps, and all but #3 are blackened. These plugs are relatively new, replaced last fall, and probably have not more than 100 miles on them. They were all torqued using a proper wrench to Don's spec when installed, and gapped properly as well.

I do not see any indication of a cracked head, but am concerned by this. If the #3 plug always runs clean but the others come in and out of service, this would seem to seem to explain the roughness.

Blow head gasket? What would explain noticeable smoke coming out of #1 plug? Even if no smoke is seen out of #2, it is sooted at base too, but less so. Need some help please.
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:40 AM
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Is the soot on #1 a continues ring? Looks that way. Just thinking if it is that may indicate that it is not seating properly. A streak at one spot might indicate a crack. Check the head right at the plug holes. That is a good spot for crud to accumulate and may be preventing a good seal. I always have to blow that area out before I remove my plugs. Bad crush washer? Try a new plug and see if you still have smoke coming out.
I had a plug that would intermittently drop out, loss of power/fouled plug, and it turned out to be the plug itself. I chased that for days before I found it.
Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:34 AM
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when you saw the smoke, was the plug not tight?
when new ones are installed they need to be re-torqued after run for a while.
does't really explain your problem though.
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Old 01-04-2014, 11:54 AM
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It is easy to eliminate the plug hole threads (or confirm). Go to the Auto Boutique and get a 14mm tap or thread chaser and do all the plugs. Use a shop vac to suck out any carbon fragments.
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Old 01-04-2014, 01:38 PM
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Exclamation Seating

John, I would like to confirm that the plug is not seating properly!!!! It may be a build up on the head where the plug "metal gasket" compresses for a seal or the threads have a carbon build up and the plug is torqued against the carbon not the seat. A tap will clean it up or a longer reach plug with a groove filed in will also complete the task. The surface at the top of the plug hole should be "flat & clean" to insure full circular contact.

Another thin is if the plug was not weated properly the spark can also be compromised due to a lack of proper seating against a good metal ground!!!

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Old 01-04-2014, 06:03 PM
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I'm still not sure I buy the loose plug theory. Especially with two of them showing symptoms. Are you sure it was smoke and not steam? Any little leak, either from the head itself, or from overhead that drips on the head, will generally collect in the wells around the plugs, boiling off and leaving behind a dark residue of whatever was dissolved in the water.
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:47 PM
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I think I read a thread a while back and they had the same issues that your describing .
I think that went on for a few years also.
Turned out to be the gas tank had a lot crap/sediment in the bottom of his tank .
Whenever He was out for any length of time the gas & crap in the tank would get all stirred up from the motion of the boat.
If I recall correctly, his gas filters all looked OK.
Do you have a sending unit on your tank ?
If there is access to the sending unit, I would remove it to inspect and clean the tank if necessary.
How old is the boat?
cheers Rick
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