Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Drive Train / Propellers

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 68.173.38.216
Old 03-30-2012, 01:57 AM
CalebD's Avatar
CalebD CalebD is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 899
Thanks: 18
Thanked 22 Times in 20 Posts
Drive train job nearly finished or... ?

This should be sort of like a game. I'll post a picture of my nearly refinished drive train overhaul and we'll figure out what is wrong in each photo. OK?

Photo #1: Prop, new zinc (that never fit before), new shaft. What is wrong with this photo?
Attached Images
 
__________________
Tartan 27 #328 owner born 1958
A4 and boat are from 1967
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 68.173.38.216
Old 03-30-2012, 01:59 AM
CalebD's Avatar
CalebD CalebD is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 899
Thanks: 18
Thanked 22 Times in 20 Posts
Photo #1

Besides the dirty fingerprints on my newly painted prop it seems that the split pin or cotter pin is not spread. The pin will fall out without spreading it's legs.
__________________
Tartan 27 #328 owner born 1958
A4 and boat are from 1967
Reply With Quote
  #3   IP: 68.173.38.216
Old 03-30-2012, 02:07 AM
CalebD's Avatar
CalebD CalebD is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 899
Thanks: 18
Thanked 22 Times in 20 Posts
Photo #2

Shiny new stainless shaft and refurbished stuffing box. Brand new shaft log hose and hose clamps but the inside of the hull is still dirty! What lazy baztard did this work? He even installed a rusty clamp on the new hose? (My boat partner thought the old clamps were beefier then the general purpose ones.)
I've got to at least vacuum this area out and it would be good to give it a very nice cleaning, if not painting.
Attached Images
 
__________________
Tartan 27 #328 owner born 1958
A4 and boat are from 1967

Last edited by CalebD; 03-30-2012 at 10:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 68.173.38.216
Old 03-30-2012, 02:17 AM
CalebD's Avatar
CalebD CalebD is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 899
Thanks: 18
Thanked 22 Times in 20 Posts
Photo #3

New SS shaft connected to old coupling and output flange on the engine. What is wrong with this pic beyond the dirty conditions you see in the bilge?

Well, for starters the set pin on the coupling is not wired at all. The set screw should not be able to back out and allow the shaft to fall out of the boat.
Attached Images
 
__________________
Tartan 27 #328 owner born 1958
A4 and boat are from 1967
Reply With Quote
  #5   IP: 68.173.38.216
Old 03-30-2012, 02:23 AM
CalebD's Avatar
CalebD CalebD is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 899
Thanks: 18
Thanked 22 Times in 20 Posts
Photo #4

OK. So that is not part of the drive train but is the raw water cooling pump.
One problem with that picture is that the back of the pump is not screwed in with the thumb screws.
Boats and auxiliary engines always offer educational opportunities.
Attached Images
 
__________________
Tartan 27 #328 owner born 1958
A4 and boat are from 1967
Reply With Quote
  #6   IP: 206.125.176.3
Old 03-30-2012, 10:18 AM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 7,016
Thanks: 1,134
Thanked 600 Times in 442 Posts
Talking

Nice update Caleb...That old prop turned out pretty good!

Isn't it funny how you get all excited about your project and want to snap all these pictures and then realize you aren't really done yet.
__________________
-Shawn
"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif
Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 24.106.234.162
Old 03-30-2012, 10:43 AM
msmith10's Avatar
msmith10 msmith10 is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 474
Thanks: 19
Thanked 62 Times in 46 Posts
Nice job on the overhaul. I envy the space around your stuffing box.
__________________
Mark Smith
1977 c&c30 Mk1 hailing from Port Clinton, Ohio

Last edited by msmith10; 03-30-2012 at 10:45 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #8   IP: 8.19.13.22
Old 03-30-2012, 11:06 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,500
Thanks: 54
Thanked 855 Times in 629 Posts
Hard to see in photo #1 but the nuts could possibly come loose and back off ~1/8" to the pin? You used locktight or some such thing to prevent this I presume.

TRUE GRIT
Reply With Quote
  #9   IP: 24.152.131.155
Old 03-30-2012, 12:23 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
In the first picture I see something other than the cotter pin that you might consider.

I'd lose the collar zinc and go for a prop nut zinc instead. It's recommended there be a portion of the shaft exposed between the prop hub and aft end of the bearing equal to one shaft diameter to allow space for water movement through the bearing. With your bearing in deadwood you already have less flow than us strut guys (we have both ends of the bearing exposed) and obstructing the only water access with the zinc collar can’t help.

Here's a thought but not necessarily a recommendation. The bearing in my full keel Westsail was situated similarly except that I installed a bronze shaft log. At the forward end of the log but on the wet side of the stuffing box I drilled and tapped for 3/8" NPT threads and installed a hose on a fitting. The other end of the hose was connected to a Tee in the water injection to the exhaust. This sent a portion of the engine's spent cooling water into the forward end of the shaft log under modest pressure to increase the water flow through the cutless bearing.

It was an uncommon installation and I unfortunately didn't have the boat long enough to know if it prolonged bearing life but in theory it should have made a dramatic difference.

It caused a funny scene in the boatyard where I built her. The truck arrived for the trip down Pacific Coast Highway. We dragged her out of her spot in the yard and loaded her on the trailer. I jumped up inside with a garden hose and fired the engine up for a final test. Water was gushing out the bearing as it should with my installation but it was certainly not conventional. The yard 'experts' started running around yelling at me to shut her down, there was a major leak at the prop. It looked like a scene from the children's story Chicken Little, "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!" I said nah, no worries, it’s supposed to do that. They said, “Huh? Are you sure?” They were certain I had a disaster brewing.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #10   IP: 216.115.121.240
Old 03-30-2012, 01:18 PM
lat 64's Avatar
lat 64 lat 64 is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
Posts: 1,964
Thanks: 39
Thanked 240 Times in 157 Posts
Thumbs up

Hey, I have that same ladder!

The set screw on the shaft coupling looks like a meat hook to me. Does it have to be that long. I just imagine something getting caught on it and making an unholy mess.

My key ingredients for cleaning an engine room: soap(your choice), beer, favorite tunes.

Spring is coming!!!!
russ
__________________
Whiskeyjack a '68 Columbia 36 rebuilt A-4 with 2:1

"Since when is napping doing nothing?"
Reply With Quote
  #11   IP: 98.248.12.160
Old 03-30-2012, 01:27 PM
tartansailboat tartansailboat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 100
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
set screws in the prop shaft coupling

I just had the yard remove the prop shaft coupling to gain access to the keel bolts. After, they reinstalled the coupling and two set screws. There is no hole in the set screws to wire them so they cannot back out. Should there be such a hole?
Reply With Quote
  #12   IP: 99.126.46.79
Old 03-30-2012, 02:05 PM
thatch thatch is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Santa clarita, Ca.
Posts: 1,079
Thanks: 235
Thanked 257 Times in 138 Posts
"prop nut oddity"

Caleb,
As odd as it may seem, the correct way to install the prop nuts (according to the ABYC) is to install the thin nut first and then the thicker one. The theory is that the thicker nut will "deform" the thinner nut against the prop creating a better "lock". When I read this in Practical Sailor I was quite surprised since almost every installation that I've seen has been done "thick nut first".
Tom
Reply With Quote
  #13   IP: 68.173.38.216
Old 03-30-2012, 02:59 PM
CalebD's Avatar
CalebD CalebD is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 899
Thanks: 18
Thanked 22 Times in 20 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
Nice update Caleb...That old prop turned out pretty good!

Isn't it funny how you get all excited about your project and want to snap all these pictures and then realize you aren't really done yet.
So true Shawn. The list of other projects I want to do keeps growing as our launch date of April 15th approaches.

Your old prop turned out looking amazing after I got it back from the prop shop. Still need to post a pic of that.
__________________
Tartan 27 #328 owner born 1958
A4 and boat are from 1967
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 68.173.38.216
Old 03-30-2012, 03:01 PM
CalebD's Avatar
CalebD CalebD is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 899
Thanks: 18
Thanked 22 Times in 20 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith10 View Post
Nice job on the overhaul. I envy the space around your stuffing box.
While there may be plenty of space around the stuffing box actually getting in there is a job for a contortionist! I should post photos of the small opening allowing what passes for 'access'.
__________________
Tartan 27 #328 owner born 1958
A4 and boat are from 1967
Reply With Quote
  #15   IP: 68.173.38.216
Old 03-30-2012, 03:07 PM
CalebD's Avatar
CalebD CalebD is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 899
Thanks: 18
Thanked 22 Times in 20 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
Hard to see in photo #1 but the nuts could possibly come loose and back off ~1/8" to the pin? You used locktight or some such thing to prevent this I presume.

TRUE GRIT
Mmmm, no I did not use loctite to lock the threads. Is this one of those ABYC recommended practices for prop nuts? I'll have to buy some loctite it so. Which color to use, blue?

http://www.loctiteproducts.com/threadlockers.shtml
__________________
Tartan 27 #328 owner born 1958
A4 and boat are from 1967
Reply With Quote
  #16   IP: 68.173.38.216
Old 03-30-2012, 03:25 PM
CalebD's Avatar
CalebD CalebD is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 899
Thanks: 18
Thanked 22 Times in 20 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
In the first picture I see something other than the cotter pin that you might consider.

I'd lose the collar zinc and go for a prop nut zinc instead. It's recommended there be a portion of the shaft exposed between the prop hub and aft end of the bearing equal to one shaft diameter to allow space for water movement through the bearing. With your bearing in deadwood you already have less flow than us strut guys (we have both ends of the bearing exposed) and obstructing the only water access with the zinc collar can’t help.

Here's a thought but not necessarily a recommendation. ...
snip
...
It caused a funny scene in the boatyard where I built her. The truck arrived for the trip down Pacific Coast Highway. We dragged her out of her spot in the yard and loaded her on the trailer. I jumped up inside with a garden hose and fired the engine up for a final test. Water was gushing out the bearing as it should with my installation but it was certainly not conventional. The yard 'experts' started running around yelling at me to shut her down, there was a major leak at the prop. It looked like a scene from the children's story Chicken Little, "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!" I said nah, no worries, it’s supposed to do that. They said, “Huh? Are you sure?” They were certain I had a disaster brewing.
I was wondering about the collar zinc obstructing water flow around the prop once I installed it. Our old shaft used a Castle nut with a cotter pin to secure the prop and I decided to go with the double nut prop locking system precisely because I could get a zinc with a nut embedded in it to act as the locking nut. Being a creature of habit I bought a collar zinc instead as it was cheaper then the zinc with a bolt embedded. I was so happy I could fit the collar zinc on there as our old prop shaft was short and left only about 1/2" for the zinc to fit between the prop and the deadwood which left me with the unenviable task of hacking away at a 1" collar zinc until I got it down to a size that would fit. Next time I have to replace the zinc I'll go with the zinc nut embedded in it.
More on the collar zinc itself. I'm not sure that this is apparent in my photo #1. There are gaps between the two halves of the zinc and the bolts are tight. I'm thinking I'll have to file down the little copper ball connectors that are inside of the collar zinc so I can get the two halves to mate properly. I'm certain that in the past when I hacked away at the zincs I used that these copper ball/connectors had fallen out allowing the collar pieces to mate easily.

I love your story about your self lubricating cutless bearing.
__________________
Tartan 27 #328 owner born 1958
A4 and boat are from 1967
Reply With Quote
  #17   IP: 68.173.38.216
Old 03-30-2012, 03:29 PM
CalebD's Avatar
CalebD CalebD is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 899
Thanks: 18
Thanked 22 Times in 20 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lat 64 View Post
Hey, I have that same ladder!

The set screw on the shaft coupling looks like a meat hook to me. Does it have to be that long. I just imagine something getting caught on it and making an unholy mess.

My key ingredients for cleaning an engine room: soap(your choice), beer, favorite tunes.

Spring is coming!!!!
russ
You are right. That set screw is huge and I should have seen that as a liability when I got my stuff from the prop shop. I'm not sure I have time for a trip back to the prop shop before launch so it will get wired as is: a meat hook.

I'm working up to a big cleaning session back there. It's never been cleaned since we got the boat 10 years ago. I may have to get some over proof beer to help keep the work flowing smoothly.
__________________
Tartan 27 #328 owner born 1958
A4 and boat are from 1967
Reply With Quote
  #18   IP: 68.173.38.216
Old 03-30-2012, 03:33 PM
CalebD's Avatar
CalebD CalebD is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 899
Thanks: 18
Thanked 22 Times in 20 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by tartansailboat View Post
I just had the yard remove the prop shaft coupling to gain access to the keel bolts. After, they reinstalled the coupling and two set screws. There is no hole in the set screws to wire them so they cannot back out. Should there be such a hole?
I'm not the expert here, just one of those who ask questions. Since I'm not really sure I'll still offer my opinion.

At a minimum I'd suggest getting some SS seizing wire and wrapping it around your screws and around the coupling. I think the answer will be that the set screws are supposed to have a hole in them for wiring them firmly in place.
__________________
Tartan 27 #328 owner born 1958
A4 and boat are from 1967
Reply With Quote
  #19   IP: 68.173.38.216
Old 03-30-2012, 03:38 PM
CalebD's Avatar
CalebD CalebD is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 899
Thanks: 18
Thanked 22 Times in 20 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by thatch View Post
Caleb,
As odd as it may seem, the correct way to install the prop nuts (according to the ABYC) is to install the thin nut first and then the thicker one. The theory is that the thicker nut will "deform" the thinner nut against the prop creating a better "lock". When I read this in Practical Sailor I was quite surprised since almost every installation that I've seen has been done "thick nut first".
Tom
Damn! I'm sure glad I posted these half baked pictures of a job not-so-well done. You all have given me some great feedback.

I thought about this at the time I installed the nuts on the shaft but this idea did not occur to me. It is a good thing the cotter pin has not been splayed so I can easily go back and change this set up.
That is one subtlety that I would not have picked up on.
Thanks.
__________________
Tartan 27 #328 owner born 1958
A4 and boat are from 1967
Reply With Quote
  #20   IP: 8.19.13.22
Old 03-30-2012, 05:56 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,500
Thanks: 54
Thanked 855 Times in 629 Posts
I Was Shooting From The Hip - No Research Was Done

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalebD View Post
Mmmm, no I did not use loctite to lock the threads. Is this one of those ABYC recommended practices for prop nuts? I'll have to buy some loctite it so. Which color to use, blue?
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/threadlockers.shtml
I don't know what ABYC specifications are for this instillation.
I don't know if loctite is any good underwater.
Part of my thinking was if you could get some kind of compound between the nuts and the shaft it might cut down on the corrosion and make removal easier when the time came. Loctite was the first thing that came to mind. Paradoxically something that would lock the threads might also make the nuts removal easier at a later date.

TRUE GRIT
Reply With Quote
  #21   IP: 75.197.126.136
Old 03-30-2012, 06:03 PM
Administrator's Avatar
Administrator Administrator is offline
MMI Webmaster
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Chestertown, MD (Langford Creek)
Posts: 2,198
Thanks: 1,335
Thanked 365 Times in 182 Posts
This stuff? No experience with it.

Bill
Reply With Quote
  #22   IP: 24.224.206.117
Old 03-30-2012, 09:50 PM
Mo's Avatar
Mo Mo is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Halifax NS,
Posts: 4,470
Thanks: 292
Thanked 411 Times in 272 Posts
Smile Good sound rudder.

They sure made a Heavy Duty skeg and rudder on that boat. I love seeing things that were built well. There are loads of boats out there that compromised the safety of the rudder for speed. For the most part there is never a problem. That one of yours could probably get away with banging on a rocky shore for a couple of hours and still be able to steer the boat once pulled off ... allot to be said for HD gear.
__________________
Mo

"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
Reply With Quote
  #23   IP: 68.173.38.216
Old 03-30-2012, 11:11 PM
CalebD's Avatar
CalebD CalebD is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 899
Thanks: 18
Thanked 22 Times in 20 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice View Post
They sure made a Heavy Duty skeg and rudder on that boat. I love seeing things that were built well. There are loads of boats out there that compromised the safety of the rudder for speed. For the most part there is never a problem. That one of yours could probably get away with banging on a rocky shore for a couple of hours and still be able to steer the boat once pulled off ... allot to be said for HD gear.
Thanks Mo. Yes, my Tartan 27 is from 1967 and is quite over built or, as you say, heavy duty. I like to think of this boat as the 'Cadillac' of boats back in it's time. Tartan was just starting their first production run of 'glass' boats back then and paid a lot of attention to making everything quite 'beefy'. The designers were the highly respected Sparkman & Stephens firm.

I was amazed the first time I stepped aboard a friends MacGregor 26' S model boat from the 1980's. The spars, the hull/deck thickness, cleats, winches, stays was so much smaller then my boat which is only 1' longer (and probably more then twice the weight). The M 26' S seemed flimsy by comparison but it was a good sailor for appropriate conditions and is pretty easily trailered. The M 26' S could even sail faster then my boat (quasi planing hull with water ballast) but I would hate to be on it in anything resembling rough water, especially with an outboard motor hanging off the end (there has never been an A4 in a MacGregor sailboat as far as I know).
__________________
Tartan 27 #328 owner born 1958
A4 and boat are from 1967
Reply With Quote
  #24   IP: 68.173.38.216
Old 04-20-2012, 01:43 AM
CalebD's Avatar
CalebD CalebD is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 899
Thanks: 18
Thanked 22 Times in 20 Posts
Packing? Got the wrong size? NG

I repacked our stuffing box about 8 years ago and I thought for sure I used 1/4" packing so I bought some new 1/4" packing material (GFO) to do the job with. The problem was that I had to really cram it into the stuffing box and it got hot after a short bit of motoring.
I found the remainder of the packing I had used 8 years ago and it was 3/16" stuff so I removed the newly installed 1/4" packing and replaced it with newer 3/16" GTU. My preferred removal tool was a drywall type screw. The Dentist's tool that I dropped is still in my bilge waiting for me.
The 3/16" packing went in SO much easier then the 1/4" stuff which was just too thick.
It will be much easier to sneak up on the right pressure for a few drips while motoring now that the right size packing is in there.
__________________
Tartan 27 #328 owner born 1958
A4 and boat are from 1967
Reply With Quote
  #25   IP: 108.21.63.119
Old 04-23-2014, 08:48 AM
jstaff jstaff is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: CT
Posts: 64
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I wouldn't remove any metal from the copper contact on the collar zinc. What's more important, zinc to zinc contact, or zinc to shaft contact?

I tap lightly on my zinc as I tighten the screws to assure that it's well "set" into place.

You could try to put a little bend in the cotter pin so the eye might press against the lock nut but I wouldn't be to worried about it.

I assume that the prop was put on without lubricant or anti-seize.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
from v drive back to direct drive bruce warren Reversing Gear 3 03-19-2011 08:34 PM
Direct Drive Output is STUCK!! mike7a10 Reversing Gear 4 11-15-2009 10:45 AM
Rebuild Accessory Drive ghaegele Overhaul 2 05-18-2009 11:24 AM
Noise in drive train Pburrowes Drive Train / Propellers 1 08-26-2008 10:24 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2024 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved