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  #1   IP: 71.54.207.52
Old 06-24-2012, 10:18 PM
toddster toddster is offline
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71 Ericson 29

Not the boat; the motor. I've started a couple of other threads with specific noob questions, but maybe this motor should have its own thread.


The boat has been hauled out for four months now and I'm getting a bit anxious, since the vast horizon of projects doesn't seem to be getting any narrower. I've finished re-doing all of the wiring (a long story) and ended up sanding the whole bottom due to blisters. Time to turn to the engine.

It needs general clean up and a cooling system flush. I'd like to lower the profile an inch or so, so that the original engine cover will fit. A PO added an inch on top of the cover and in front, possibly during installation of the FWC. And it just doesn't fit. So I'll relocate the heat exchanger (which rattles against the galley) to the stbd bulkhead and put a shorter belt on the alternator, which is full out on the adjusting bracket. The pulley on front still won't quite clear the cover, so I may need to cut a hole in it and add a little extension. Also plan to relocate the fuel filter from the battery compartment into the engine compartment.

Got a package of odds and ends from MM to install too. Tach, hour meter, new spark plug wires (can't find them locally.)
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:46 PM
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Shaft wear... problem?

I ordered up an indigo prop. So today I removed the old one, and while I was at it, extracted the shaft and the cutlass bearing.

One of the surprises when we hauled the boat was this kind of odd bolt-on strut. I've never seen anything quite like it. Possibly after-market, but there isn't any typical cavity on the inside where the head of a strut would be buried. Just a backing plate on apparently undisturbed laminate. But that's not important right now.

Now that I look closer at it, the strut is held together and the prop is (was) held on by nylock nuts. No pins or lockwashers or anything else. The nut twisted right off with hardly any force. (Hah, nice try, boat, but I actually DO have a 15/16 wrench on hand.) So, first point of discussion: are these nuts really sufficient? If so, the next problem will be locating replacements.

Next problem: The shaft is distinctly worn in the cutlass bearing area. I don't have a precision caliper around but with my cheap one it looks as if the shaft is on the order of up to half a millimeter narrower in the wear area. Is this a fatal problem? I sure hope not because I'm running really low on boat-bucks and time. And the shaft log is looking a little dodgy as well.

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Old 06-24-2012, 11:04 PM
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Shaft, DONE!! (sorry)

In my unsolicited opinion there's no way the strut arrangement is factory original. No way, no how. What it looks like to me is the factory strut was replaced with the bracket possibly due to a crack or break in the original. The repair and use of steel bolts is suspicious to me, likely P.O. handiwork. Any chance the boat was originally outboard powered? In that era, outboard powered 29 footers were not uncommon.

It's possible the (assumed) amateur repair/installation was responsible for the shaft damage. I'm feeling about 90% that it was.
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Last edited by ndutton; 06-24-2012 at 11:08 PM.
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Old 06-24-2012, 11:13 PM
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Talking

That strut is a new one on me too. It would seem to offer some adjustability and if it is rigid enough could be a nice item. But I would lose those nuts for more traditional ss jam nuts. The shaft does look a bit worn but if the lateral movement with a new cutless is less than 1/16" you'll be good.
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Old 06-24-2012, 11:26 PM
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Thanks, the opinions certainly ARE solicited. The boat is definitely an original inboard. I too assumed the strut was a previous repair, but I just don't see any sign that a previously embedded one was cut out. Now that the shaft is out of the way, I can sand that area so maybe something will turn up.

Anyway, I doubt we need to look much farther than operating in a silty river full of basalt flour for causes of the shaft wear.
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Old 06-24-2012, 11:32 PM
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I found a picture of an Ericson 29 showing the strut. I'm really sorry for the poor quality but I'm zoomed in to a ridiculous level. Even though the pic is distorted it shows a conventional strut unlike what's on your boat.

Quote:
Anyway, I doubt we need to look much farther than operating in a silty river full of basalt flour for causes of the shaft wear.
All the more reason to be sure the drive line is in proper alignment. No point in aggravating the situation.

edit:
I just looked at your picture again. That's a Helluva lotta shaft showing behind the strut. Compare it to my blurry pic.
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Last edited by ndutton; 06-24-2012 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 06-24-2012, 11:43 PM
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Glassed in gone

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddster View Post
Thanks, the opinions certainly ARE solicited. The boat is definitely an original inboard. I too assumed the strut was a previous repair, but I just don't see any sign that a previously embedded one was cut out. Now that the shaft is out of the way, I can sand that area so maybe something will turn up.

Anyway, I doubt we need to look much farther than operating in a silty river full of basalt flour for causes of the shaft wear.
What you have is probably what is underneath all the other Glassed In ones. Your original probly had cracked or fell off at some point. What you have left is there repair of what was already there embedded? JMHO.....

I defer to Neil though, he was a boat builder.
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Old 06-24-2012, 11:48 PM
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actually

Quote:
Originally Posted by 13jeff13 View Post
What you have is probably what is underneath all the other Glassed In ones. Your original probly had cracked or fell off at some point. What you have left is there repair of what was already there embedded? JMHO.....

I defer to Neil though, he was a boat builder.
In reference to what you said about the previous owner perhaps he took that off to adjust the angle of the prop shaft. It looks like it is adjustable if you move the prop shaft strut forward or rearward it will move the angle of the shaft up or down.
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Old 06-24-2012, 11:52 PM
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in fact

Quote:
Originally Posted by 13jeff13 View Post
In reference to what you said about the previous owner perhaps he took that off to adjust the angle of the prop shaft. It looks like it is adjustable if you move the prop shaft strut forward or rearward it will move the angle of the shaft up or down.
Its probly use to be in the forward hole and they moved it aft 1 hole to lower the prop shaft angle, for the FWC.
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Old 06-24-2012, 11:57 PM
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And...



If you Want to lower your engine further you may want to move it back 1 more hole to lower the prop shaft angle.

All...JMHO..
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  #11   IP: 24.152.131.155
Old 06-24-2012, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
I defer to Neil though, he was a boat builder.
Well, maybe so but I NEVER saw anything like that!!

Quote:
In reference to what you said about the previous owner perhaps he took that off to adjust the angle of the prop shaft. It looks like it is adjustable if you move the prop shaft strut forward or rearward it will move the angle of the shaft up or down.
No, no. The shaft angle is set in perpetuity at the factory when the shaft log is glassed into the hull. Much like a door with three hinges where the axes must be all collinear for the door to swing, in the case of the drive line the engine, shaft log and cutless bearing must be in line and the shaft log is unadjustable. Getting the shaft even slightly off in relation to the shaft log can be disasterous. Just ask Shawn.
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Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 06-25-2012 at 12:02 AM.
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  #12   IP: 71.54.207.52
Old 06-25-2012, 12:02 AM
toddster toddster is offline
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I think the "adjustments" available on the strut are probably in order to fit it to different boats.
"Buck Algonquin" sells something somewhat similar that they call a "universal fit" strut.

Last edited by toddster; 06-25-2012 at 12:06 AM.
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
I found a picture of an Ericson 29 showing the strut. I'm really sorry for the poor quality but I'm zoomed in to a ridiculous level. Even though the pic is distorted it shows a conventional strut unlike what's on your boat.

All the more reason to be sure the drive line is in proper alignment. No point in aggravating the situation.

edit:
I just looked at your picture again. That's a Helluva lotta shaft showing behind the strut. Compare it to my blurry pic.
Then maybe the previous owner move the whole engine aft one hole. and needed to move the shaft strut to keep the angle correct????

On second thought that engine compartment has hardly any room for movement at all.

Although, if FWC was added at a later date, perhaps they Had To move the engine aft. And in doing so the prop shaft aft..I would be curious if the shaft is exactly centered in the shaft log??
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Last edited by 13jeff13; 06-26-2012 at 12:21 AM. Reason: Typos,, Smart Phone Isnt a good typer, like me
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13jeff13 View Post
Then maybe the previous owner move the whole engine aft onr hole. and needed to move the shaft strut to keep the angle correct????
I really don't think so. The cutless (strut) and shaft log would be aligned with each other regardless of the engine position. I think something else went on but I'm not sure what.

If I were to go out on a limb and make a guess, based on the excessive unsupported shaft beyond the strut I think the original strut failed for whatever reason and this repair was added forward of the original location. If there's a vestige of the old strut in the fiberglass I'd expect it to be aft of the current strut assembly.

The problem with shortening the shaft to get the proper bearing-to prop support is the prop tips will be too close to the hull. What's the standard for the exposed shaft between the strut and prop hub? One to two shaft diameters? Something like that. One shaft diameter is the minimum and that's where I always set the ones I installed.
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:59 AM
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Smile Ya gotta love it

Having a "removable" cutless carrier makes frequent cutless bearing changes a real snap!
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
Having a "removable" cutless carrier makes frequent cutless bearing changes a real snap!
er...yeah. I guess I could have unbolted it and slid it over the shaft. Instead of spending an hour pressing out the engine coupler under impossible conditions at arms length in the back of the engine compartment to free the shaft. But it feels like more of an accomplishment that way. D'oh!

Really, I didn't mess with it because I wasn't confident that I could get it realigned correctly. Assuming that it's correct now.

Last edited by toddster; 06-25-2012 at 01:03 PM.
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Old 06-25-2012, 01:08 PM
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Unbolting the cutless carrier (bottom half of the strut) introduces another critical element in alignment which few if any others have to do.

Not that it's aligned correctly now . . .

Is anybody bothered by the length of shaft beyond the bearing besides me??
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Old 06-25-2012, 01:54 PM
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Talking Possible source of vibration?

Neil, yes it does look strange and could be a problem especially if the prop were unbalanced. But moving it forward brings it closer to the hull which reduces it's efficiency. Still, I would be inclined to shorten up a little in this case and go to a 3 blade prop of smaller diameter and greater pitch.
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Old 06-25-2012, 02:19 PM
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Well the new prop has an inch less radius, but I am still reluctant to put it closer to the hull, or change too many variables in one experiment.
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:00 PM
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new prop doesn't fit

Well, just argh! The new prop arrived today and it doesn't fit the old shaft. The taper isn't remotely the same and the keyway is narrower.



Now that I look at it, the old prop has a sleeve of some material inserted to make it fit. It was probably made for a 1" shaft. In fact, it has no taper. Its bore is 16mm front and back. The new one is 19mm at the back and 15mm at the front. So the scenario of having the old prop as a spare is out the window. Now what are the chances that there's something funky about the shaft adapter at the other end?

Excuse me while I go pound my head against the keel.
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:16 PM
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Talking Uh Oh

Looks like you are on the business end of the PO's cobble job. Since you have a prop for 1'' shaft you will probably be better off to get a new shaft and coupling. This will give you the opportunity to adjust prop position. You will need to select a different cutless bearing but that is no problem.
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:18 PM
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Dude, everything you come across with this driveline gives me the shakes:

No taper at the prop end, a Nylok nut holding the prop on as opposed to a castle nut and cotter pin, a sleeve inside the propeller hub, the hoakiest strut arrangement I've ever seen and held together with steel bolts, waaaaay to much shaft after the strut, more shaft wear at the cutless bearing than I've ever seen and who knows what on the inside.

I can't imagine this being professionally done. If it were me . . . . well, let's not go there. My approach - as usual - would be extreme, major surgery and wholesale replacement from one end to the other. But when it was done . . . wait, I said I wasn't going there.
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:53 PM
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So, if I order up a new shaft that is 2.25" shorter than the old one, that would leave 3/4" between the bearing and the new prop. It looks like that would give me about 1.5" clearance to the hull. If I went to 1.5" behind the bearing, the gap to the hull opens up to about 2.25," Similar to what it was before. I'm not sure how much difference that makes, except it would give me the ability to go back to a 12" prop, if desired.

Why would I need a different cutless? One is already on the way out in UPS limbo.
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:09 PM
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If you presently have a 3/4" shaft the new cutless will not work for the 1" shaft.
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Why would I need a different cutless? One is already on the way out in UPS limbo.
I'm a victim of my past and as I warned, my suggestions are often extreme.

I've personally installed between 50 - 100 A4's and the complete drivelines too. I'd start with a clean fiberglass hull, no holes or 'nuttin and have at it, engine, shaft log and strut with bearing. I'd cut the holes where they were needed, set up the alignment and fiberglass everything in place, bolts for the strut too. Back then (40 years ago) we maintained 1" behind the strut for the prop hub and 1.5" clearance from the prop tip to the hull. This was all part of the setup.

If this were my boat, I'd start from scratch and get it right. But it's not my boat, is it? You have to do what's right for you. There are plenty of knowledgeable guys here with different ideas.

By the way, the adjustable strut also means it can get out of adjustment. My preference for a fixed, solid strut is born from my experience. I've said it before, there's not much to go wrong with a solid hunk of bronze.

Quote:
Hanley:
Since you have a prop for 1'' shaft you will probably be better off to get a new shaft and coupling.
The existing shaft log I.D. may be a dealbreaker for a 1" shaft. There's usually not much clearance to start with.
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prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 06-25-2012 at 11:54 PM.
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