Southern California A4 Help?

[rfinstad]

Hello All,

Can anybody recommend a mechanic in Southern California?

I've received some bad advice from my local boatyard -- with just one glance they say my 1978 Atomic Four is "too old" to repair and propose replacing with a diesel!

My issue is with the cooling system, it's not putting out any water with the exhaust. I got the fault tree from Don and while it looks fairly straightforward, I don't feel qualified to tackle the job by myself.

The boat (Catalina 30) is in Marina Del Rey -- does anybody know of a mechanic in the area willing to work on an A4 engine? Or if not a mechanic, perhaps an experienced non-pro who'd be willing to help? MDR would be ideal, but King Harbor, San Pedro, or even Channel Islands might work.

Thanks in advance!

Cheers,
Ryan

[ndutton]

Welcome to the cult Ryan. I'd be willing to have a look.

[sastanley]

Ryan, Welcome, and do not worry too much. You will be an A4 mechanic before you know it!

There are not too many things keeping the water from getting in and out of the engine. On a C-30 of that age, the exhaust hose could be collapsed on the inside, you could have a blockage in the motor too, typically at the smallest fittings.

I see Neil is on the case...you are in good hands.

[rfinstad]

Thanks for the welcome Shawn!

Neil - just sent you a PM.

[Administrator]

Hi, Ryan.

Any progress to report?

Bill

[ndutton]

Originally Posted by Administrator

Any progress to report?

Teaser
Ryan got a team effort from Thatch and me, one morning for diagnosis, another for repairs after parts arrived from MMI. We left Ryan with an easy starting, smooth running, temp under control engine despite the local professional mechanic declaring it DOA. Hopefully when Ryan returns he'll give you his perspective and a new found appreciation for the beloved Atomic 4.

[rfinstad]

Hello Forum!

Apologies for my delayed reply, I’ve been happily distracted sailing up and down the coast of southern California! I’ve managed to log about 100 miles since the engine was put back together 4 days ago.

Neil and Thatch came out to my boat and quickly sized up the situation. I was amazed at how methodical the process of diagnosis was – a testament to their experience but also to the friendly nature of the A4. It took them scant time to get to the root of the problem.

Very little cooling water was being ejected with the exhaust. A quick check revealed that the thermostat had been removed (good for our climate), but the bypass hose to the thermostat had not been plugged or shut off (bad for water flow). So even if all else was good we were not getting the appropriate amount of cooling water where it needed to go. That issue was fixed in a jiff.

From there we went to the exhaust manifold, which was clearly in rough shape. An acid flush of the manifold resulted in an incredible amount of gunk coming out with the exhaust water. Hopes were high that this simple cleaning would at least extend the life of the manifold by a few years. However the poor thing was so corroded from 40 years of saltwater that it gave up the ghost right then and there. Thatch took it home and cleaned it up, attached is a picture of what it looked like.

So we paused there and I went home to order a new exhaust manifold from Moyer, which was a silky smooth process that had the new part at my doorstep in about a week. In the meantime, Thatch took the fuel pump and carburetor home to be cleaned and rebuilt. I took the backfire flame arrester home with instructions on how to clean that up.

Round 2: We reconvened with the new exhaust manifold and some other small parts from Moyer. We replaced the spark plugs and plug wires – one wire had actually been melted onto the engine block in the overheating incident. Neil taught me how to gap the spark plugs per the specs in my shiny new Moyer Maintenance Manual and we got those hooked up. The rebuilt parts were reinstalled and the new manifold as well. Everything was ready to rock and roll, so I hopped into the cockpit to turn the key and……nothing.

Now this is where experience at troubleshooting a problem really kicks in. What a learning experience for me – I’d have had no clue where to start. A few tests with a volt meter revealed that a corroded wire connector was the culprit. 5 minutes later that was fixed. A turn of the key again and VROOOOM, the engine is up and running!

I have never seen that much exhaust water come off the back of this boat, the volume and pressure of water has increased dramatically. My Temp gauge starts at 100F and the needle wasn’t moving - could it really be running this cool? We used a laser thermometer to read the temp on the block and manifold and it was right in the ballpark of 100F. Absolutely amazing to me considering the engine had typically run at 160F or higher since I've known it.

To put the finishing touches, Neil drilled a hole to allow visibility for adjusting the distributor timing. He brought a nifty vent cover for the hole and I’ve already forgotten it’s there. The idle speed was adjusted and it now sounds a lot happier in idle. For good measure a compression check was done: 90 PSI on #1, 95 on #2, and 100 on #s 3 and 4.

Looking back to when I first got into this boat, the engine was never truly running well. It would occasionally stall out, or heat up to the point where it clearly had to be allowed to cool down before starting again. There was always the nagging fear that the engine would stall out at just the wrong time and leave me in a precarious spot.

Having the engine in solid working condition – and even more importantly understanding how it works – is like having a new lease on life with this sailboat. I just can’t thank Neil and Thatch enough for what they did to educate me and help get my boat back. They wouldn’t even take money for the parts they used from their own inventory, let alone for their valuable time. What an incredible turn of events from a few weeks ago when I was told my engine was scrap metal. THANK YOU guys both so much!

Thanks to the forum and to Moyer for all the help as well!

Cheers,
Ryan

[thatch]

That's not the most flattering picture ever taken of me but probably a pretty accurate version of how I currently look. Working with Ryan on this project was an absolute pleasure. Neil and I get together from time to time but rarely have a chance to twist wrenches on a project. Ryan's engine was typical of many A4s that just needed a sound diagnosis and a few new parts. His description of the repair process was pretty much spot on. More important than the repairs, is the knowledge that we were able to help educate and hopefully instill the confidence needed to keep his A4 running for a long time to come.
Happy Sailing, Tom

[ndutton]

Ryan, next time someone posts that their exhaust water flow is reduced and engine temp elevated you'll be ready to help him out. From your own first hand experience you can caution him to check the plug wires for heat damage from laying on an overheated head and instruct him on how to replace them, firing order, etc.

You also experienced compression testing, water jacket pressure testing, spark plug gapping and replacement, where to find the gap and torque specs in the MMI manual, draining the waterlift after a no-start episode, the function of the cooling water bypass and considerations when running without a thermostat and a bunch of other stuff.

Oh yeah, and when to ignore a boatyard mechanic's advice (like most of the time when it comes to Atomic 4's).

[tenders]

That photo must be Thatch in mid-explanation of how to poke a mechanic in the eye after he says the A4 is "too old to repair."

[roadnsky]

Good on ya Neil and Thatch!

The "A" (4) Team to the rescue.
And another convert/disciple as well.

Doesn't get much better than this episode.

[ndutton]

Originally Posted by tenders

That photo must be Thatch in mid-explanation of how to poke a mechanic in the eye after he says the A4 is "too old to repair."

Probably not too far from the truth. Either that or my fly was open. I'd like to point out Tom made the repairs official by anointing them with Afourian blood. Have a look at his right wrist.

edit:
Jerry, if it hadn't been us I'm sure another forum member would have stepped up. We really enjoyed helping and the result was the payoff.

[thatch]

The way I see it is, if you haven't put a couple of drops of blood on a project, you must have done something wrong.
Tom
P.S. My Tetanus shot is current.

[azazzera]

have to give some type of offering to the gods. I prefer alcohol but blood works too.

[lat 64]

Awesome raftup you guys.

I think that finger is pointing to the bait shop telling Neil to go get more Pacifico.

Good on ya gang,

Russ

[romantic comedy]

Originally Posted by thatch

The way I see it is, if you haven't put a couple of drops of blood on a project, you must have done something wrong.
Tom
P.S. My Tetanus shot is current.

I write the date of my last tetanus shot on my tool box. No kidding!

[thatch]

Just to set the record straight, I was telling Neil "I'm pretty sure that the side over there is the port side and the one behind me is called the starboard side"
Tom

[ndutton]

Let's acknowledge Ryan's role in the success too. He took a huge leap of faith allowing two internet yahoo's (as far as he knew) to dictate a direction to take on his engine, ponied up the $$$ for a significant MMI parts order without hesitation and followed our anti-seizing* instructions for two weeks without question.

He may not have realized it but he played a major part in the outcome.

*We had a major salt water incursion into the combustion chambers with it shooting out of the spark plug holes all the way to the cabin top during compression testing. For two weeks Ryan kept adding WD-40 to the cylinders and cranking her over to keep things moving until parts arrived and we could return.

[sastanley]

<Sidebar>
A C-30 with the rare U-shaped dinette!!! That must be a West Coast detail Frank Butler kept over there just for you guys!! I've never seen one here.
</Sidebar>

Nice work all around everyone. Ryan, that picture of the two of them in the same "room" is pure gold 'round here in A-4 land.

Tom, at least you had a spare pair of glasses hanging in your shirt in case you needed them. I walked into the parts counter today with two pairs on top of my ball cap.

edit- Before I owned my boat, salt water incursions into the combustion chambers resulted in a weak #4 cylinder with about 25 PSI or so compression lower than the others due to rust on the cylinder walls..but the PO let it sit and didn't address it right away..so I am glad to hear Ryan heeded the advice.

[dew]

I looking is that a C30 did not look like enough room for a dance party in there.

Good job guy,s getting the old girl back on her feet.

[sastanley]

<another sidebar>Wow, dew!!! Good to hear from you! </another sidebar>

[SimBen]

I just red through this post - and I need similar help -
Atomic 4 on a Catalina 30 from 1983 -
Neil can you help?
How do I contact you directly?
thanks
S

[ndutton]

I responded to your visitor message posted to my profile page. Also, there's an email link on my profile page. A good place to start is describe your symptoms/issues right here on the open forum. Plenty of good advice will follow.

[marthur]

A C-30 with the rare U-shaped dinette!!! That must be a West Coast detail Frank Butler kept over there just for you guys!!

My neighbor at the Muskegon Yacht Club has that layout and a sweet running A-4. So a few must have dribbled east.

[ndutton]

If the table can be supported on a single leg (not as easy as it sounds) there are advantages to the U-shape dinette layout. Table support is the determining factor.