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  #251   IP: 68.34.125.252
Old 10-28-2012, 11:46 PM
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Oh, that's the problem...I've been turning off, pulling the key, disconnecting the batteries and shutting the gas valve off. That's why it won't start...lol...

Never hurts to ask. My mother called once and said, "my computer won't boot." I asked, "is it plugged in?" She went behind the the desk and the cord was on the floor. The cat apparently had knocked the cord out.
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Old 10-28-2012, 11:57 PM
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Here's another question and honestly I'm not trying to start anything:

Do any of you have a PCV system installed? If you do you might try plugging it before trying the hand crank.
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Last edited by ndutton; 10-29-2012 at 12:04 AM.
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  #253   IP: 68.34.125.252
Old 10-29-2012, 12:15 AM
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Yea, I know you aren't. Just kidding with you.

Yes, I do have a PCV kit installed. What would plugging it do to facilitate starting?
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:25 AM
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  #254   IP: 146.23.68.40
Old 10-29-2012, 08:52 AM
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Hand cranking has been moved to a new thread.
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  #255   IP: 68.34.125.252
Old 10-29-2012, 09:01 AM
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Good move. We should have already done that ourselves. Thanks.
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  #256   IP: 184.0.105.143
Old 10-29-2012, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
Jerry - Would you mind posting some voltage readings for that resistor, both sides - after warmed up and running, batteries full. Thanks, Hanley
Hanley-
I'm back from my trip and got to the boat today and ran some numbers.
I know that you're riding out SANDY right now, and have bigger concerns than resistor/coil numbers, so I'll wait until you pop out the other end.
Lemeno when you're back with us.
God's Speed...
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  #257   IP: 68.34.125.252
Old 10-29-2012, 11:42 PM
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Yes, definitely need to get back to this later. We've been out of power for 5 hours in Baltimore. Running on generator for a few minutes. I'll check back in a few days. I hope everyone's boat is safe.
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  #258   IP: 184.0.105.143
Old 11-01-2012, 07:51 PM
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Ok, back to Coil Stuff...

Hanley-
It seems that you are back among us safe and sound, so here are the promised numbers from my coil, post resistor install...

My FLAMETHROWER Coil read @ 3.3Ω before I installed the 0.85 Resistor

AT REST / No Ignition:
BATTERY = 12.67v
COIL B4 Resistor = 7.9mv
COIL After Resistor = 7.8mv

IGNITION ON:
BATTERY = 12.57v
COIL B4 Resistor = 11.18v
COIL After Resistor = 9.04v

ALT ON @ 1000rpm:
BATTERY = 14.29v
COIL B4 Resistor = 13.57v
COIL After Resistor = 12.24v

ALT ON @ 1800rpm:
BATTERY = 14.30v
COIL B4 Resistor = 13.66v
COIL After Resistor = 12.45v

ALT ON / Idle @ 800rpm:
BATTERY = 14.29v
COIL B4 Resistor = 13.59v
COIL After Resistor = 12.23v

Zero differences starting or running that I can see.
Hope that helps.
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:40 PM
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I noticed a fair ohm change between a hot running coil, and one that is non running and at outdoor temp.

So,, should you always ohm test for your resistor at non running temp, or get a ohm reading after running for a while.

Mine runs great right now, and can run hours at low speeds, no problem.
But after I switched out to EI , and started measuring coils, and resistors I noticed the change in ohms at the coil when warm.
Just something I have been meaning to post about for the last year or so...
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:58 PM
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Daniel,
Would you say the difference in resistance is significant? Is this with a new coil or one that's been around the block a few times, perhaps even with an overheating episode in its history?

This is one of the reasons we built in a 15% safety factor in the Excel calculator. It's always nice to have a little cushion. Our recommended target amperage was 3.4 amps rather than the 4 amp maximum. As I said previously, the target amperage was chosen arbitrarily by me, a seat of the pants guess and a place to start testing. Thus far there hasn't been a reason to change.

While we're talking about it, lemme tell ya there's a certain level of risk coming out so strongly with this EI/coil resistance study and recommendation. It was based on a very limited testing sample and was contrary to the manufacturer's technical advice. It's been a couple of years since we published our opinion and I've been dreading the report that hasn't come yet, the report of a failure with this setup. Of course I hope it never comes but there's always the possibility, y'know? Nothing's guaranteed.
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Last edited by ndutton; 11-02-2012 at 08:30 AM.
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  #261   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 11-01-2012, 09:00 PM
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Question

Thanks for those numbers, Jerry; it seems that the Flamethrower is comfortable cruising just over 12 volts. Is it hot to the touch after cruising at that voltage?

Last edited by hanleyclifford; 11-01-2012 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Daniel,
Would you say the difference in resistance is significant? Is this with a new coil or one that's been around the block a few times, perhaps even with an overheating episode in its history?
I put a new coil on with the points and ran for a couple of months or so and then switched over to EI.
I don't believe I ran the EI without a resistor. So the coil should have been good.
I can't give the exact numbers as I didn't write them down, But I am thinking I saw from a third to a half of ohm or more difference when hot.
I may have posted some of this somewhere, anyway, just wondering with all this testing, if ohm testing @ warm running conditions were tested, or should be base line, and not cold.
And should a coil ever change ohms when hot even if less or up to a half ohm?
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  #263   IP: 24.152.131.155
Old 11-01-2012, 09:22 PM
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Hmm, very interesting. A half ohm variation in a coil that measures 3.3 ohms (the typical Flamethrower story around here, 3 ohms specification that actually measures 3.3 ohms cold) calculates out at a 15% variation. There's that 15% figure again. If Moyer coils experience the same half ohm variation we're talking 11%.

I'm assuming your resistance is less at higher temperature and therefore the amperage would be higher and again, by 15%. Maybe the safety factor is keeping us in the good graces of the coil Gods.

All the resistance measurements I made were at ambient temperature. I never considered a coil's resistance would change with temperature. I should qualify that, I mean a coil that hadn't been abused with overheating and the resultant internal damage. We're talking good components here.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
Thanks for those numbers, Jerry; it seems that the Flamethrower is comfortable cruising just over 12 volts. Is it hot to the touch after cruising at that voltage?
No. Not hot to the touch. Gun shows 110-120°
Unfortunately, to get a fair temp reading, I'll have to wait until next summer.
Right now the weather here is "perfect".
Sorry guys in the North East...
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  #265   IP: 205.201.175.107
Old 11-09-2012, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smosher View Post
Neil, how do you have the ballast resistor wired in, looks like your coming off the + side of the coil to the resistor.
Where is the other side of the resistor going, maybe ignition switch ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
My resistor is installed just ahead of the coil. One resistor terminal gets the ignition wire from the switch, the other goes to the coil +.

Full disclosure:
Thatch emailed me a Pertronix diagram he uncovered that showed a ballast resistor. On their drawing the Ignitor module positive (red wire) is connected ahead of the resistor whereas mine is connected after the resistor. My way delivers lower voltage to the ignition module but I don't think it's any big deal. Pertronix specifies 8-16 volts range for their Ignitor so I think we're good either way. Without accurate measurement yet I estimate I'm running at 11 - 11.5 volts to the coil and module (after the resistor). I was unaware of their drawing when I installed my resistor, just did it without regard for the module. It's working fine though, starts instantly and runs smooth.

Stewing on it overnight I think I prefer the slightly lower voltage to the module. It might prolong its life. This is pure speculation. I could just as well start a thread next week on module failure, who knows?

Neil-
My response to Mo yesterday on the other thread got me to thinking...
(I know, that smell is the smoke coming outta my ears)

With my BUSS BAR set up for the mass of coil wires, I realized that
my resistor is wired such that the EI is still getting full ignition voltage.
(PRE Resistor)
I haven't noticed any issue since adding the resistor in-line.
Starting, idling, cruising ALL seems to be normal.

Based on your comments (above) from last year, I'd like to hear thoughts about my set up, now that we're a year down the road...?
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:51 AM
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Funny, as I was reading the earlier comments you quoted in your post I forgot they were mine.

What you didn't say but I'm assuming is your coil is getting voltage filtered through the resistor, right?

I have no reason to alter my opinion after all this time. My EI unit has lower voltage than yours but both are within the manufacturer's specification and they both perform well. My continued preference for lower EI voltage is pure speculation unsupported by any testing.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:59 AM
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Yeah, I'm using the same resistor you are.
Wired one post from ignition and the other post to the coil + terminal.

My EI gets it's voltage (red wire) from the Positive Terminal on the Buss Bar.

I suggest we keep each one wired this way and see what time tells us?
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:02 AM
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Whats important is to reduce the current flowing through the coil. The resistor can be before the + or tied to the - side of the coil. The Goal is to get the amps down to less than 4 and the primary circuit to 4 or more ohms

I have a .8 50 watt ballast resistor connected between the - side of the coil and the black wire from the EI Ignition. My current flow through the loop is at 3 1/2 amps.

Steve
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  #269   IP: 24.152.131.155
Old 11-09-2012, 11:03 AM
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The reason I think it shouldn't make a difference is the switching load through the EI is still at the lower voltage because it goes through the coil.
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  #270   IP: 205.201.175.107
Old 11-09-2012, 11:07 AM
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by smosher View Post
Whats important is to reduce the current flowing through the coil. The resistor can be before the + or tied to the - side of the coil. The Goal is to get the amps down to less than 4 and the primary circuit to 4 or more ohms

I have a .8 50 watt ballast resistor connected between the - side of the coil and the black wire from the EI Ignition. My current flow through the loop is at 3 1/2 amps.
Ahhhhhhh, I get it now!
Steve, both mine and Neil's resistor are also 0.85

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
The reason I think it shouldn't make a difference is the switching load through the EI is still at the lower voltage because it goes through the coil.
Agreed Neil.
Thanks guys
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Last edited by roadnsky; 11-09-2012 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:12 AM
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Yes, lower voltage dropped across the coil.

fwiw its a ratio between the coil and the coil + the ballast resistor,

3.3/4.1 in my application = 80% of the supplied voltage will be dropped across
the coil

Steve
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Old 07-04-2013, 04:57 PM
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Confused on Coil

I have an A4 installed in a 27" C&C Sailboat. The engine has consitantly run for hours without problems until last week when it began to run rough and then died. I was unable to restart.

I suspected it was a coil problem and began research on this site which has provided some great info however I am now confused.

The engine has an electronics ignition package and I assumed from the info here that the coil would have a ballast resistor or an internal resistance type coil.

I removed the old coil #407, manufacturer unknown, other labeling unreadlable except the words "use ...R...", however could not locate any resistors in the circuit. I measured the primary coil resistance at 3.9 ohms but no sure if this would be accurate on a failed coil.

I am not sure I can find a replacement coil based just on the part number.

Will I damage anything if I replace the unit with a new coil with internal resistor or should I replace with a normal external resistor type coil.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 07-04-2013, 05:17 PM
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egmonster,

some of us are using both an internally resisted coil AND and external inline resistor to assist the internal ballast coil...edit- what the in-line resistor is really doing is reducing the input voltage to the coil to hopefully keep it from burning up.

What I think is most important is the input voltage the coil is seeing..This is measured on the (+) on the coil post, and the ground on your meter to a good ground like the engine block (the (-) on the coil is NOT ground.) - this needs to be checked while the engine is running, and while the alternator is charging (i.e., normal cruise RPM)

Then you can use Neil's calculator somewhere in this thread to determine if you think you need an external resistor.

3.9 Ω is pretty good, and higher internal resistance than most. But, if your input voltage to the coil is too high, it may not be enough to keep from frying the coil.

Hope that helps clear the muddy water a bit..I think we need more info from your set up for further diagnosis.

Just for a reference point..I have a 3.3Ω internally resisted coil, and a 1.63Ω external resistor in-line in front of the coil (if my memory serves me..) This gives me somewhere in the 10v range of input voltage to the coil.
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Old 07-04-2013, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egmonster View Post
...I am not sure I can find a replacement coil based just on the part number.
Will I damage anything if I replace the unit with a new coil with internal resistor or should I replace with a normal external resistor type coil.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

A really simple answer would be to buy the coil sold on this very site by our sponsor.
It already has the proper resistance. No fussing with an external resistor.
Just a straight R&R and you're done!

Give Ken a call (610.421.4436) in parts and he'll get you all set up.
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Old 07-07-2013, 09:43 PM
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Jerry..of course you are correct. I think the coil sold by Moyer is over 4 ohms of internal resistance.
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