Centerboard question

[NatySailor]

Hey guys -

Not an A4 question but this forum is so smart and responsive, I thought I'd try my question here.

I have a Tartan 27, which has a centerboard. I've had a hard time learning about how the centerboard pendant (the wire cable that you use to raise and lower the centerboard) passes through the hull, and what sort of maintenance and inspection it needs.

On my boat the pendant passes through a PVC pipe which terminates in a bit of rubber tubing which is hose-clamped to the PVC and the hull. As I've left my boat in the water this winter, I'm hesitant to just pull this tubing off and see what happens!

I'm attaching some photos of the area to give you a better idea what I'm talking about.

If you want to compliment me on the new paint job on my A4, I'm happy to receive those messages as well.

[CalebD]

Naty,

Is your boat in the Chesapeake? I know that lots of boaters let their boats over winter in the water there.
I would not remove that PVC pipe while the boat is in the water either. If it isn't below the water line it is certainly very close to it.
On my Tartan 27' there is an exhaust hose that houses the wire rope that attaches to the center board. In both cases this is meant to keep water from entering the cabin and keep drips from the cable off the engine and batteries.
On our yahoo Tartan27Owners group there are some diagrams of the centerboard showing the attachment point for the raising/lowering cable and the hole for the pivot pin at the top of the board. The raising/lowering cable attachment point is located nearly 2' behind/below the pivot pin. You can locate the pivot pin on your centerboard trunk in the cabin. There is some speculation that the wire rope may rub against the fitting as it enters the centerboard cavity/trunk. At least one member of the group added a sacrificial bushing here to limit any chafing effect that the wire rope may have.
The concern is that when the board is raised or lowered the angle of this cable must necessarily change as the board is raised/lowered. In over 10 years of ownership I have never had a problem in this area nor have I felt the need to add an extra bushing here.
Disclaimer: I have never inspected this area.

Your engine paint job looks very nice. Good work.

[JOHN COOKSON]

Picture number one: What is with the broken clamp? Also it looks like the lower clamps are over tightened because they have dug into the hose considerably.
You can paint my A4 any day.

TRUE GRIT

[lat 64]

"Naty" (and Caleb and other T-27 folks),

That PVC would scare me. I have worked with the stuff in non-boat situations for a long many years.
I have seen it last a good long time, but also crumble when it is exposed to chemicals and acids*. The proximity to the batteries concerns me. Also the fact that the boat relies on the tube not leaking or failing to remain afloat.
I have seen PVC fail (crumble in my hands) from just being stored in original plastic bags for a few years before I tried to install it. These were hot tub fittings from a Seattle manufacture. Also, I have seen PVC just crumble away from exposure to ozone in an ozone generator on a hot tub. Im suspicious that chlorine degrades it too like the butyl fittings, but that is just me.
PVC is not too structural and ice can blow it out easily.
The stuff is great for use in budget water systems where failure is just an inconvenience—not a safety concern or disaster for a yacht sinking.
I'd replace the tube with a stainless pipe or G-10 tube(epoxy/glass).
The project should be considered, like any below-waterline hull penetration, the same as seacocks. Make it strong and safe with best-practice methods.

Yes, replace the rubber hose when in doubt. I suggest genuine Caterpillar dozer radiator hose. The stuff will outlast all of us.

And, new high-quality(the expensive kind) hose clamps, 4-each. Two on each end of hose.

As they say in NewZealand, your engine looks "sweet as". Good work.

Cheers,

Russ

*http://www.nuflowmidwest.com/blog/is-your-environment-leading-to-pvc-pipe-failure

[Al Schober]

Yeah, I know... Tartan 30s don't have a centerboard, hence I can't answer...
Previous boat was a Morgan 24 with the centerboard from Hades. Rebuilt and redesigned the whole thing. Centerboards are great - you've got one! Centerboards are also trouble - you've got one!
Agree with the concerns about the PVC. Get rid of it - at least below the waterline. I use PVC aboard for cockpit drains and bilge pump discharge, but all above the waterline. I've also had a rubber hose crumble in my hand (gas fill) so keep an eye on that piece too.
Folks on submarines say 'Ya gotta keep the water out of the people tank'.
Suggestion: add some guards to those battery terminals. You're gonna drop something on them sooner or later. I prefer watching fireworks that aren't aboard..

[NatySailor]

Hi Caleb,

Thanks for your message.

Yes, I'm just south of Baltimore in Jone's Creek.

I've tried to join that Tartan 27 owner's group but never managed to get a message confirming my subscription. I would love to take advantage of the resources there and see some of the diagrams you mention. Perhaps I need a Yahoo account to join (though I've read that you do not).

Appreciate your comments, and glad you've never had problems with your centerboard. The previous owner worked at the Sparrow's Point steel plant before it closed, and had some buddies in the machine shop make a new stainless steel centerboard a few years ago. So at least that should last for a while.

Going to try to join that group again. I think some drawings would help this all make a bit more sense.

D

Originally Posted by CalebD

Naty,

Is your boat in the Chesapeake? I know that lots of boaters let their boats over winter in the water there.
I would not remove that PVC pipe while the boat is in the water either. If it isn't below the water line it is certainly very close to it.
On my Tartan 27' there is an exhaust hose that houses the wire rope that attaches to the center board. In both cases this is meant to keep water from entering the cabin and keep drips from the cable off the engine and batteries.
On our yahoo Tartan27Owners group there are some diagrams of the centerboard showing the attachment point for the raising/lowering cable and the hole for the pivot pin at the top of the board. The raising/lowering cable attachment point is located nearly 2' behind/below the pivot pin. You can locate the pivot pin on your centerboard trunk in the cabin. There is some speculation that the wire rope may rub against the fitting as it enters the centerboard cavity/trunk. At least one member of the group added a sacrificial bushing here to limit any chafing effect that the wire rope may have.
The concern is that when the board is raised or lowered the angle of this cable must necessarily change as the board is raised/lowered. In over 10 years of ownership I have never had a problem in this area nor have I felt the need to add an extra bushing here.
Disclaimer: I have never inspected this area.

Your engine paint job looks very nice. Good work.

[NatySailor]

What I still don't get here is how does the wire pendant enter the interior of the boat? Does it pass through some sort of stuffing box or is there just a little hole in the boat down there (I assume with something sort of bushing to keep the wire from rubbing on the fiberglass).

I just find it hard to believe that some old hose and hose clamps are the only thing between keeping hundreds of gallons of Chesapeake Bay coming into my Tartan!

Message received about the PVC, and embarrassingly I didn't even notice the busted hose clamp on that rubber tubing. Replacing that has moved to the very top of my priority list -- thanks for the catch!

[nieuwkerk]

i have a columbia 31 with a similar arrangement.

The Columbia's "stuffing box" is at the end (top) of the tube where the wire exits to a pulley. I've been warned to NEVER remove the tubing while in the water. While your arrangement may be different, i would assume that removing it would result in a mini-firehose...

bill nieuwkerk

[nieuwkerk]

forgot to include a photo. here it is:

[nieuwkerk]

Here's another older picture showing the whole tube.

[nieuwkerk]

Sorry - I'm new at attaching photos. Hopefully this works:

[joseph miller]

hello Naty,

the bottom of the rubber hose on the T-27 centerboard pennant is well below the waterline.
the fitting on the top of the ctr. board trunk on my 27 was a bronze threaded nipple threaded into a pipe coupling, looked like plumbing quality.
this was factory i believe, your setup of rubber and PVC pipe surly is not.
The fitting was glassed to the top of the ctr. board box.
mine failed on a Friday evening, i jury rigged a repair with butyl tape, riggers tape and hose clamps for the weekend. this was 8-10 years ago.
my repair was to pull the boat, cut away the fitting and glass in a S/S stanchion base using glass and epoxy. the original was cut mostly in half where pennant wire rubbed. i had a friend weld a S/S tube over the top of the post to equal the inside diameter of the hose. hose was reinforced black rubber, about 1 1/2" diameter.

Joe

[ndutton]

It's interesting that the ABYC and USCG go nuts over thru-hulls but not so with other below the waterline penetrations such as knotmeter paddlewheels, rudder and prop shaft stuffing boxes and this centerboard lift arrangement. In the case of a plastic knotmeter paddlewheel thru-hull there's no valve, no structural attachment, no way it meets the 500# side impact load requirement of other thru-hulls. In the other installations mentioned you're relying on a hose and a couple of clamps to stay afloat. Better make them as bulletproof as possible.

[Marty Levenson]

No one mentioned battery boxes...?

[JOHN COOKSON]

Originally Posted by Marty Levenson

No one mentioned battery boxes...?

Yea I saw that too. Neil: Are covered battery required by USCG regs?

TRUE GRIT

[ndutton]

Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON

Neil: Are covered battery required by USCG regs?

TRUE GRIT

Yes, in a manner of speaking. In addition to requirements for secure mounting (no movement greater than 1 inch in any direction), mounted neither above nor below a fuel tank, fuel line or filter and hydrogen gas ventilation provisions, the positive terminals are required to be covered. Probably the most elegant solution to satisfy all the requirements is a battery box.

[NatySailor]

I suspect there might be something like what you describe under the rubber tube/pvc. Doesn't seem like they should be mutually exclusive. The PVC seems to be mostly to keep water from dripping on the engine and batteries.

Pretty scary to have the fail -- good thing you were on the boat when it happened!

Speaking of batteries, terminal covers coming, people -- I swear! I'm about to redo all the wiring to the A4 and that is part of the project.

Originally Posted by joseph miller

hello Naty,

the bottom of the rubber hose on the T-27 centerboard pennant is well below the waterline.
the fitting on the top of the ctr. board trunk on my 27 was a bronze threaded nipple threaded into a pipe coupling, looked like plumbing quality.
this was factory i believe, your setup of rubber and PVC pipe surly is not.
The fitting was glassed to the top of the ctr. board box.
mine failed on a Friday evening, i jury rigged a repair with butyl tape, riggers tape and hose clamps for the weekend. this was 8-10 years ago.
my repair was to pull the boat, cut away the fitting and glass in a S/S stanchion base using glass and epoxy. the original was cut mostly in half where pennant wire rubbed. i had a friend weld a S/S tube over the top of the post to equal the inside diameter of the hose. hose was reinforced black rubber, about 1 1/2" diameter.

Joe

[lat 64]

Originally Posted by ndutton

Yes, in a manner of speaking. In addition to requirements for secure mounting (no movement greater than 1 inch in any direction), mounted neither above nor below a fuel tank, fuel line or filter and hydrogen gas ventilation provisions, the positive terminals are required to be covered. Probably the most elegant solution to satisfy all the requirements is a battery box.

Well, that makes my boat pretty much in complete violation!🙊

Good stuff to know.

[sastanley]

Naty, I know you didn't ask, but we like thread drift and pictures especially lead to thread drift - I have three battery containers, one like your port battery tray and two like the stbd tray..I like mine...I also have all battery terminals covered with Blue Seas covers as Neil (and I think (edit) USCG requires.) My (+) side terminals are partially covered by the settee box, which makes me happy as I am less likely to drop a wrench on it that way, but it makes it slightly harder to gain access. I'll take the safety personally. I would ditch all of the auto style lugs on the batteries, and use properly sized crimp/solder lugs directly to the threaded battery posts, like stbd-side forward (-).. They are slightly pricey, but Blue Seas sells these..you need to double check the stud size on the battery, and the gauge of the wire to match them. Another place is genuinedealz.com out of Florida - I've used them numerous times and I am extremely happy with their products.

No comment on the center board..I have a keel. Now, if you want to talk keels bolted to a C-30 with non SS studs/nuts & a plywood bilge floor, I can talk all day!

[ndutton]

My reference source was the USCG. The ABYC is respected but in at least one case is reluctant to fully embrace newer technology even though they require the newer technology. In my opinion they can be a bit myopic. In addition, the USCG is required by law, ABYC is a recommendation and compliance is voluntary.

Good thing too because in the case of their myopia I volunteer not to comply.

[lat 64]

USCG, ABYC, and this forum are sources that have "learned" me good.

So many things on my boat that I ignored until someone posted a thread about an issue and then I notice my setup in complete violation of best practices, or law, or just good safety.

Then I shell out another $1k

[sastanley]

Originally Posted by lat 64

Then I shell out another $1k

That is called a "boat buck", Russ!