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Old 08-26-2014, 06:51 PM
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fuel help needed, boat stalls for no reason

Looking for suggestions. I rebuilt my entire motor. Rebuilt the mechanical fuel pump and the carb on my 1977 Catalina 30 as well.
Motor starts within 3 sec of turning the key and sounds smooth. Very happy with the rebuild.The issue is this.
The motor runs for 15 minutes and stalls out without any warning. Stalls very quickly, only 1 to 2 seconds and its gone, no warning.I turn the key, and it immediately starts up. If I run the motor at idiol speed with the boat in gear, it will run and not stall. Any more fuel than that and after a few minutes, but not right away, it will stall and then will be able to start right back up.
Not really sure what is out of whack. Any opinions as to where to start.And by the way, today I by- passed all the fuel filters and tank and used a 5 gal plastic tank and went direct to the carb to eliminate that part of it.Same old.
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Greg Catalina 30 1977
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Old 08-26-2014, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregsails View Post
And by the way, today I by- passed all the fuel filters and tank and used a 5 gal plastic tank and went direct to the carb to eliminate that part of it. Same old.
Thanks
Greg Catalina 30 1977
Did you by-pass the pump and use a bulb pump or was your mechanical pump drawing the gas from the can? Does sound like an air leak and since you've been working there should stick it being a fuel issue first.

-check oil and see if you have a rise or clear thin oil...might even have a hint of gas smell to it.
-also remove cover and smell where you put oil in to see if there's gas smell.
-check line between pump and carb and ensure all fittings tight and not leaking.

I'm sure some guys with some other ideas will chime in as well. This could easily be an electrical / ignition issue as well ... either way the guys here have loads of troubleshooting ideas.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

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The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.

Last edited by Mo; 08-26-2014 at 07:19 PM.
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Old 08-26-2014, 07:19 PM
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Not a guaranty but I'm doubting it's fuel related due to instant restart. My first reaction is a questionable ignition connection or wire. Try running with a temporary jumper wire between the battery positive and the coil positive. Two cautions with this test arrangement: the only way you can shut the engine off yourself is to remove the jumper wire and if it stalls on its own, remove the wire immediately to avoid damaging the coil.

Under no circumstances should the jumper wire be in place if the engine is not running. A few seconds is OK. The jumper configuration I like is minimum 14 gauge stranded wire with alligator clips on both ends. The clips make installation and removal a snap.

Have you eliminated the dreaded Catalina trailer plugs?
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prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 08-26-2014 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 08-26-2014, 07:20 PM
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Good, Neil is on here...he's you electrical guru.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
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Old 08-26-2014, 08:12 PM
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I agree with Neil on this - the instant restart/run is unlikely if the fuel system is the culprit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
?... and if it stalls on its own, remove the wire immediately to avoid damaging the coil.
Or rather, remove the wire from your now, most likely, previously damaged coil.

If it runs well with the jumper, at different RPM and times, look to the plug/harness. You'll want to replace it anyway if you haven't already.
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Old 08-26-2014, 08:32 PM
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Hmmm. Electrical. That never occurred to me. As it happens, I also bought a new coil at Moyer. I was waiting till I had everything working just right before I started adding new stuff as a just in case.That way I could tell if it was a new problem with the old gear. I ll install the new coil and see what happens and go from there.
As for the trailer wires... mine were in perfect condition lol. Im on the Great Lakes, Lake Huron.This enviroment isnt nearly as nasty as what you have to deal with. I lubed them up and put them right back to work.
Greg
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Old 08-26-2014, 08:36 PM
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It could be the coil but it has not been determined definitively yet. Your symptoms do not include the typical coil failure cool-down period required before restart.

The jumper wire test eliminates or condemns the entire ignition wiring system, essential information at this point.
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Had my hands in a few others
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Old 08-26-2014, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
It could be the coil but it has not been determined definitively yet. Your symptoms do not include the typical coil failure cool-down period required before restart.

The jumper wire test eliminates or condemns the entire ignition wiring system, essential information at this point.
I jumped the gun. You are correct, sir!
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Old 08-26-2014, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BunnyPlanet169 View Post
I jumped the gun. You are correct, sir!
Not to worry, you may end up being on the mark. Even though the symptoms don't match exactly, the coil is not off the table yet. Neither is fuel but I'm going with the symptoms provided for the time being.
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1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
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Old 08-27-2014, 08:34 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Lightbulb Basicx

Greg, what is the fuel pressure at the carb? Low fuel pressure can keep the bowl full enough to idle but produce no power, this also fits your scenario.

You can eliminate the ignition system with a "hot wire" and you can eliminate the feul supply with the "pressure gage". Both are excellent checks.

Dave Neptune
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Old 08-27-2014, 10:44 AM
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This would help
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Old 08-27-2014, 07:01 PM
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Dang Joe, why didn't I think of that? Must be slipping. You're right, it would have answered the ignition wiring and fuel pressure questions instantly, two of the five monitored parameters.
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1977 Catalina 30
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prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
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Old 08-28-2014, 10:35 AM
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Smile

Update. None. I changed out the coil and motor still runs, no issue. Waves are so big right now I ll have to wait to get out.Wind is suppose to shift tonight to a better direction in case I lose the engine going through a 30 yard cut with rocks on each side. Not where you want to have no power. Need a sail up just in case.
Greg
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Old 08-29-2014, 03:38 PM
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Hey All.
I have just retested by C 30 with the new coil. Same old thing. Runs fine in the slip but off the dock and under load it stalls out. It still does immediately restart, go for a while and then stall again.
My next step should be.......

Oh. I was just reading Mo s blog about his boat stalling and was thinking of fuel mixture. A friend that I trust had set mine when we were getting the motor ready the first time. But I would like to check it.

I understand the turn and a half from the start position. This may seem dumb but the start position of the needle is full turned ..... clock wise to start, thats the closed position and then a turn and a half counter clock wise to set it. Is that correct.
Greg
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Old 08-29-2014, 04:15 PM
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"I understand the turn and a half from the start position. This may seem dumb but the start position of the needle is full turned ..... clock wise to start, thats the closed position and then a turn and a half counter clock wise to set it. Is that correct."
Yes. Gently turn clockwise until seated, you will feel it stop, that is the starting point, do not force it further then back out counterclockwise.
Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 08-29-2014, 04:20 PM
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To set the mixture in turn clockwise. Then back off 1 1/4 turn and try that. I generally back it off another 1/4 again before I try it.

This time of year, around 75 degrees here: Choke to start, push choke in right away after it starts and see if it stalls....if it stalls it's generally pretty close.

Next, I start again with full choke and after 10 to 15 seconds ease it in and it should continue to run...another 10 seconds and push it all the way...engine should continue to run.

Next I smell the exhaust and see if it smells rich...if not it's pretty close.

The reason I mentioned sniffing the oil in my earlier post was because the pump had been worked on. Although not much to go wrong there I just wanted to ensure you weren't pushing gas through a damaged or faulty diaphram...outside chance.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
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Old 08-29-2014, 04:36 PM
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With everything said in the previous post, this could be a fuel starvation issue. I'm not sure, could be a blocked main jet, pump issue, plugged fuel filter, or air leak in some portion of the vessels line.

Changing out the coil: Did it make it better?? If so, the problem, then would be considered electrical. There's a small wire from the distributor also that gets jammed some times, connections as mentioned by Neil and others. Neil knows your particular boat and has been through allot of these issues himself...so does Shawn.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
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Old 08-29-2014, 05:12 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Cause Ane Effect

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregsails View Post
Hey All.
I have just retested by C 30 with the new coil. Same old thing. Runs fine in the slip but off the dock and under load it stalls out. It still does immediately restart, go for a while and then stall again.
Greg
My bet is still on wiring or electrical until proven otherwise. (Post #7)
An engine that is flooded or so lean that it quits will not start easily.

TRUE GRIT

Last edited by JOHN COOKSON; 08-29-2014 at 05:13 PM. Reason: S\B Cause And Effect
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Old 08-29-2014, 05:40 PM
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Ok. So my next step will be to run a wire from the pos. terminal on the battery to the pos terminal on the coil.
Esay to do, but why am I doing this. I am in the chocalate business by trade and good with the tools but lots of theory I do not understand.
Does the connection happen before I start the engine? What happens after the motor is started... just run it? What should happen after that?
Greg
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Old 08-29-2014, 06:30 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Divide And Conquer

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregsails View Post
Ok. So my next step will be to run a wire from the pos. terminal on the battery to the pos terminal on the coil.
Esay to do, but why am I doing this. I am in the chocalate business by trade and good with the tools but lots of theory I do not understand.
Does the connection happen before I start the engine? What happens after the motor is started... just run it? What should happen after that?
Greg
We got you covered on the theroy part. Hang in there.
It's easier to run wire from the large battery cable on the back of the starter to coil +. This will bypasses the boats wiring.
Do not leave this wire connected and hot for more than a couple of minuets when the engine isn't running or you will burn out the coil.
If the engine runs normally it means the boat's wiring is at fault. We'll go from there.
Have you read general information FAQ #14?

TRUE GRIT
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Old 08-29-2014, 06:39 PM
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Hi Greg,
Just remembered something: I looked at a boat earlier this summer that would idle and not stay running in gear. I was thinking his problem was stuck valves as shutting down under load is a symptom of that as well. Once it was started I could hear the miss so checked the plugs first. It was spark plug issue and it had been running lean for a while as well, judging from the mess on them. So, before you do anything else pull off one plug wire at a time and see if it changes the idle. The boat I looked at had 2 bad plugs. Two malfunctioning plugs will shut it down under load and it could idle with them.

If you post a video of the engine running so we could hear it maybe it would help.
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1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
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Old 09-01-2014, 01:11 PM
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OK. That didn t work out very well. Make up a jump wire, #10 guage with clips.Put my old coil back on just in case. Ran the boat on the dock to make sure it started easily. All good so far. Motored out of the slip and went to the day sailors dock, tied the boat up and shut it down.
Went down below, went pos to battery and pos to coil. Reached out and turn the key and immediately fried the wire right off the battery and destroyed the wire going into my distributor. Looked like the boat was on fire.So Im sure the coil and distributor are shot.
The whole process took about 2 seconds. Not a happy camper right now.
I do, still have my new coil and a new electronic distributor on the boat.But Im doubting my ability to fix this now.What did I do wrong?
Greg
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Old 09-01-2014, 01:49 PM
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My guess is either:
  1. The jumper was actually on the coil '-' post or
  2. The wire from the distributor that should have been on the coil '-' post was actually on the coil '+' post. That is, the normal wires attached to the coil were reversed.
Either is a possibility with all the work that has gone on in the area. I also don't think turning the key had anything to do with it. Likely the problem started when the jumper was installed (any sparking during connection?) and it took a little time for full meltdown, about as much time as it took to activate the key. Turning off the key wouldn't have stopped it either.

That's all if my guess is correct.

I further don't think it caused any distributor damage save the small wire nor do I think the distributor caused the damage. I think the coil was spared too. This appears to be a connection polarity problem pure and simple. How 'bout a fuse in the jumper next time?

edit:
Bottom line - the small wire from the distributor and the temporary jumper should NOT be on the same post. That is what I think happened here.
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prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 09-01-2014 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 09-01-2014, 02:20 PM
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Thumbs up

Nice promp reply Neil...and you had some good news in there for Greg as well....always in awe of your electrical knowledge.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
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Old 09-01-2014, 02:27 PM
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If the wire was connected to the negative side of the coil, it would have burned up right away, if the points were closed. My guess is that they were open. When the engine was turned over, the points closed, thus causing the wire to burn.
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