Bilge Safety

[Mark S]

Thanks, Dave, for going to this effort. Maybe you could also tell me what size is your ducting. Thanks again.

Mark

[Dave Neptune]

Duct

Mark, I'll check however I think it's 4"
David

[sastanley]

All good points and I want a continuous duty blower too.

It seems to me that with the engine running, fuel pump pumping and fuel flowing, the possibility of a fuel leak is enhanced and at a time when I’m on deck rather than in a position to sniff the bilge. I’m still more comfortable with powered over natural ventilation and if my blower starts complaining I’ll replace it like any other worn out component.

It also seems to me that the blower and Halon extinguishing system serve different purposes. The blower is intended to remove dangerous fumes before something catastrophic happens while the Halon system minimizes the damage after the catastrophe. One system isn’t preferable to the other, they both perform essential functions.

Neil
77 Catalina 30

Neil, I a recent owner of a 77 Catalina 30. I couldn't understand why I had limited air flow in my blower. I found water in the exhaust hose of my blower line (between the clamshell & blower motor, port side on my boat) and it allowed for very little air flow. Detaching the hose from the blower and cleaning out, increased flow ten fold. Just a friendly suggestion from a fellow C-30 owner, just in case.

I figure 20+ years of rain/hose water from previous owner had collected.

Dave, I went and answered the separate poll thread..my answer..it depends

edit - Incidentally, I recently read at another sailing forum (Sailing Anarchy) that there was recent a A-4 powered boat (C&C 35 I believe) that was a total loss due to an explosion after refueling. Delivery crew OK, but still speculation on what happened. Refueling occurred with jerry can(s) on deck (post-Mac race I think, boat's name was Gandalf) and blower was run for one minute prior to restart. One crew was blown off the boat, the others jumped soon after when they realized they couldn't save it & help was nearby. To avoid speculation, I won't post any theories, but the person in charge of the delivery reported there was no abnormal fume smell, etc., and was familiar with Atomic 4's. Just a note to everyone to be careful!

[msauntry]

Bob's quote:
"I am very close to wiring the bilge blower fan directly to the ignition so that it runs at all times when the engine is running, the only problem being that I need a parallel switched line to the blower so I can turn on before switching the ignition on"

A few of us have already done it and its very easy. Cole-Hersee sells a 4 position start switch that takes care of this. AUX-OFF-IGN-ST.
Blower gets wired to the auxiliary post so its on when the engine runs, or just turn the key to aux and only the blower goes. Its one of my favorite mods I've done to my boat since it used to be down on the cabin's breaker panel and was a pain to get to.

[High Hopes]

What msauntry said.

[keelcooler]

As Shawn read most blow ups occur after refueling and involve fumes.
With the motor running and the boat underway they don't blow,they burn when there is a system fuel leak.

That's why the final link in your bilge safety plan should be a haylon automatic.
That's why running your blower when underway does little if any good in reducing a fire risk in the event of a leak.

Boat us claim in 1990,Deal Md,K-35 w/a4 total loss fire. After sailing the engine was started while sails were bagged. Owner returned to the helm and found engine had stalled. Blower was running and when he attempted to restart a fire erupted in the motor box. Cause found to be no oil safety switch for the electric fuel pump. When it stalled the fuel pump kept clicking, flooded and leaked out of the carb. An ignition source found the fuel when restarted.

USAA claim in 1986,down town Annapolis MD,city dock Catalina 30 w/a4 total loss explosion. Owner refueled,ran blower and when starting engine she blew. Cause found to be small fuel leak around fill system. Fumes were around the tank aft and were not evacuated by the blower and the boat was wide open. An ignition source found the fumes when restarted. The force buckled bulkheads, cabin sole and detached the deck to hull joint aft. The only fire damage involved flash burned blower hoses,trash bags holding gear and the owners eye brows.

I have many others that involve gas powerboats.

[High Hopes]

But only two A4's from 1986? That's good news for 21 years of service.

[keelcooler]

Steve, Those are local bay claims I handled when I was a surveyor.I'm sure there are many more. Most accidents are not reported to USCG unless there is a fatality. I know that's unlawful, however that's just the way it is.

[High Hopes]

Keel,

There are a lot of A4's out there. So do you see that A4's are more prone to explosions or fires than diesels? This is an old debate, but I have not been able to get any hard numbers. I suspect there are more A4's than any type of diesel engine out there on the Bay. So what is the percentage failure of A4's compared to say Yanmar's?

I had a galley fire on my boat. Not a nice experience. With respect to putting out fires, I suspect that there is not a lot of experience using fire extinguishers. I found that they put out a large blast but not only for a short time. Aiming is critical. Pointing at the flames does not work. You only get 2 -3 shots per tank.

I have three on my boat. I am planning to add 2 more topside, but I have not figured out where to put them yet.

I would recommend sailors try to put out a fire with an extinguisher. It is a very educational experience. Use of the extinguishers takes practice. Seeing how they behave during a life threatening fire could be too late.

Steve

[keelcooler]

Steve, The only trend I observed was the owners who poorly maintained their boats had the dis-masting,sinking and fire claims.

Most boat fires involve AC shore power and or electric heaters.

Lot's of galley fires involving alcohol fueled stoves, none with propane( I know what fuel you had).

Fighting an engine compartment fire w/a 3 lb dry chem is a joke. Like your self owners always reported "the dry chem ran out by the time I learned to aim it"

As you can see above my unit of choice is a auto haylon. A 6 lb horn nozzle co2 accessible from the cockpit is next.

[sastanley]

maybe the key is to refuel when you don't need to use the motor!

What trigger do the halon systems use? Smoke,heat,smell,fire?

[High Hopes]

Well it is good to know that maintenance and attention to details pays off.

I wouldn't have guessed electric heaters. I just replaced a large, but reliable, electric heater with a newer more compact, but cheaper, model. Now you have me thinking about this. I had added wide strips of wood across the feet of the older unit and was is difficult to topple it, even if you accidentally kick it. Also, the enclosure was metal, the filament was protected, etc. Can you recommend a good heater? Electric or otherwise?

Yup, the stove is alcohol. I learned not to use it except at the slip or in calm waters. Although the alcohol canisters don't drip (I verified this on land), mine easily jostle out of their clips when underway and the flames get redirected when that happens - and there is no indication of this until you smell something burning or touch something hot that usually doesn't get hot. I have an ORIGO and it definitely needs to be treated with kid gloves.

Steve

[keelcooler]

Steve, It's not the heater itself, it's the amp's it draws. Occurs on a cold morning every time when all that draw finds a weak link in the system. Usually the 30 amp boat cord plug or the 15 amp it's plugged into.

It's not a shorting but a poor connection that begins to arc and overheat. Don't ever use a heater when not aboard. A boat that burns in the slip takes out it's next door neighbors. The powerboat that burns in a covered slip can take out the whole marina.

Sastanley, The haylons heat trip at around 250.

[rigspelt]

With respect to putting out fires, I suspect that there is not a lot of experience using fire extinguishers.

Good point, Steve. We run a fire extinguisher seminar in our community for boaters. They discharge their own extinguishers in a pan fire, and the company gives a discount to recharge them.

[MikeB.330]

Steve, A bit off topic but could you give a little more detail as to how the Origo canister popped out of it's clip. I have the Origo 6000 two burner w/oven and have found it to be nothing if not super safe. Once the lid is latched down I don't see how anything would be able to move. Mine also has a lock of sorts that prevents the lid from opening unless both burners are 100% closed. i find this unit to be much safer than the old pressurized stove it repaced.

I think I'll be stopping by the Haylon booth at this years boat show..


good stuff.

Mike