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  #1   IP: 68.33.43.122
Old 08-18-2019, 08:16 PM
ernst ernst is offline
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Question In situ painting? Using POR-15?

I am afraid I will have to do something about corrosion on the outside of my A4, see the attached images. I am afraid if I don't apply a coat of paint it will rust through at some point. I am impressed by what people on this list do with their A-4 antiques but at this point I am not going for beauty, just for utilitarian protection, i.e. rust prevention (or at least limit its progression). Here are my thoughts, please let me know if it makes sense.

First, I do not intend to remove the motor, I am planning to paint it in place. I realize this limits what I can do but I hope that I can get to the critical places to protect them from rust.

Then I have to decide what paint (system) to use. I know Moyers sells a spray paint which would look original but I given that the machine will be in place, I think that protecting everything from overspray will be much more work than brushing.

So I will have to select an alternative paint. I like the original look (which the motor has right now, at least on the small parts of it where there is still some paint left) and I found a brushable paint by Rustoleum which comes pretty close (can't find the link right now). But in the past I have made very good experiences with POR-15 https://www.por15.com (the regular paint, not the high-temperature version; I don't think the outside of an A4 ever gets hot enough for the latter to cure). It seems made for this application since it works best on rusty surfaces. They have a very limited color palette and nothing is close to the original Universal paint but, again, I am going for function not cosmetics. So it would most likely be a glossy black. I expect that the POR15 will not adhere to the few areas where there is still paint left so it will have a splotchy look but I am fine with that as long as the rust is kept in check.

So my plan at this point is as follows:

1) Remove alternator and top of distributor with all ignition cables, wrap the bottom of the distributor in a plastic bag for protection.

2) Wire-brush and vacuum all areas I can get to, using manual brushes of different sizes.

3) Protect surfaces around and under the motor with plastic drop cloths. Wrap the carburator.

4) Apply the POR-15 cleaning solution (Marine Clean) with a brush

5) Wash it off with water, either a fine spray (spray bottle) or brush

6) Put a thin layer of grease around each spark plug where it meets the threads as a lift agent, to avoid that POR-15 'welds' the plugs to the block

7) Apply 2 or 3 layers of POR-15

8) Crack a cold one!

One question I have whether I should remove the manifold which is by far the rustiest part. I am tending not to do it, afraid to open a can of worms. Does that make sense?

All opinions and suggestions welcome!
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Old 08-19-2019, 10:32 AM
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Al Schober Al Schober is offline
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First tip is to use eye protection. Glasses with side shields or even a full face shield. When going after the existing rust, a small hammer & chisel works on the heavy stuff.
Check the water jacket plate behind the starter/distributor. If that is still installed with bolts, I recommend changing to studs.
I've never used the POR stuff, so no comment. The Rustoleum oil based products work well IMHO, primer first then top coat. The primer is more important than the top coat.
A primer I've used with great success is Interlux Interprotect 2000E - a two part epoxy with moisture barrier. The smallest kit is a gallon size, designed to be mixed all at once for barrier coating hulls. Mixing it in smaller batches is messy, but I've done it by weight. As I recall, the ratio is about 6:1 by weight - check the MSDS sheet to get from volume ratio to weight ratio.
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Old 08-19-2019, 02:57 PM
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I used the Rustoleum high heat paints in spray cans with great success. They cured fine. They covered the rust well after a little wire brushing and vacuuming.
Primer in Gray:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
and Aged Copper, which is like the Universal Brown but a little lighter, and more metallic.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
A lot of paints are baked off at the hot end of the manifold, but these are holding up well.
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Old 08-20-2019, 11:38 PM
ernst ernst is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Schober View Post
First tip is to use eye protection. Glasses with side shields or even a full face shield. When going after the existing rust, a small hammer & chisel works on the heavy stuff.
Check the water jacket plate behind the starter/distributor. If that is still installed with bolts, I recommend changing to studs.
I've never used the POR stuff, so no comment. The Rustoleum oil based products work well IMHO, primer first then top coat. The primer is more important than the top coat.
A primer I've used with great success is Interlux Interprotect 2000E - a two part epoxy with moisture barrier. The smallest kit is a gallon size, designed to be mixed all at once for barrier coating hulls. Mixing it in smaller batches is messy, but I've done it by weight. As I recall, the ratio is about 6:1 by weight - check the MSDS sheet to get from volume ratio to weight ratio.
THANK YOU for the emphasis on safety. I don't have a face shield but I will definitely put on safety glasses.

As for paint, I agree that the primer is probably the most important part. An epoxy paint is not the first thing that would have come to mind because of the elevated temperatures, in particular on the exhaust manifold but I am glad it worked for you (I looked at the manual https://j109.org/docs/interprotect-2000e.pdf and it does not seem to give a limit on operational temperature). Incidentally, I think the Interlux Interprotect 2000E primer is now available in quart size, e.g. at Discount Marine; at least that is what google said.

But if I hear no negatives, I plan to stick with my POR-15 plan. I noticed that some others seems to have used it for the Afour, see post #3 by bunnyplanet at http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...ead.php?t=9841, post #10 of http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...ead.php?t=2735, post #6 of http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...thread.php?t=8, various posts in http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...read.php?t=657
and quite a few others on the Moyer forums mention it (don't want to clutter up this post with all the links). So far I haven't found any that said bad things.

As for changing the bolts on the water jacket plate to studs, that may be a great idea. I haven't looked at that for ~15 years but I remember it was a bit sketchy. With the alternator out of the way it would be a good opportunity to make the change. What I am concerned about is 'mission creep.' If the bolts are in good shape, I might go for it. But if the bolts look like I might be creating a problem, I will hesitate. Don't want to dig deeper and deeper, taking into account the last sentence of bunnyplanet (again post #3 in http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...ead.php?t=9841).
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Old 08-20-2019, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capnward View Post
I used the Rustoleum high heat paints in spray cans with great success. They cured fine. They covered the rust well after a little wire brushing and vacuuming.
Primer in Gray:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
and Aged Copper, which is like the Universal Brown but a little lighter, and more metallic.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
A lot of paints are baked off at the hot end of the manifold, but these are holding up well.
Thank you, good to know. As I said in my previous post, at this point I plan to stick with POR-15 but if something comes up that says this is a bad idea, it is good to know there is an alternative.
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Old 11-30-2019, 09:20 PM
ernst ernst is offline
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Originally Posted by ernst View Post
I am afraid I will have to do something about corrosion on the outside of my A4, see the attached images. I am afraid if I don't apply a coat of paint it will rust through at some point. I am impressed by what people on this list do with their A-4 antiques but at this point I am not going for beauty, just for utilitarian protection, i.e. rust prevention (or at least limit its progression). Here are my thoughts, please let me know if it makes sense.

First, I do not intend to remove the motor, I am planning to paint it in place. I realize this limits what I can do but I hope that I can get to the critical places to protect them from rust.

Then I have to decide what paint (system) to use. I know Moyers sells a spray paint which would look original but I given that the machine will be in place, I think that protecting everything from overspray will be much more work than brushing.

So I will have to select an alternative paint. I like the original look (which the motor has right now, at least on the small parts of it where there is still some paint left) and I found a brushable paint by Rustoleum which comes pretty close (can't find the link right now). But in the past I have made very good experiences with POR-15 https://www.por15.com (the regular paint, not the high-temperature version; I don't think the outside of an A4 ever gets hot enough for the latter to cure). It seems made for this application since it works best on rusty surfaces. They have a very limited color palette and nothing is close to the original Universal paint but, again, I am going for function not cosmetics. So it would most likely be a glossy black. I expect that the POR15 will not adhere to the few areas where there is still paint left so it will have a splotchy look but I am fine with that as long as the rust is kept in check.

So my plan at this point is as follows:

1) Remove alternator and top of distributor with all ignition cables, wrap the bottom of the distributor in a plastic bag for protection.

2) Wire-brush and vacuum all areas I can get to, using manual brushes of different sizes.

3) Protect surfaces around and under the motor with plastic drop cloths. Wrap the carburator.

4) Apply the POR-15 cleaning solution (Marine Clean) with a brush

5) Wash it off with water, either a fine spray (spray bottle) or brush

6) Put a thin layer of grease around each spark plug where it meets the threads as a lift agent, to avoid that POR-15 'welds' the plugs to the block

7) Apply 2 or 3 layers of POR-15

8) Crack a cold one!

One question I have whether I should remove the manifold which is by far the rustiest part. I am tending not to do it, afraid to open a can of worms. Does that make sense?

All opinions and suggestions welcome!
I lost my 'weather window' for this project. The boat is on the hard, the first snow (or ice pellets) is forecast, and I will likely not see temperatures over several days in the paint-compatible range until early spring.

So, when looking at the pictures again, I still wonder if I should remove the manifold. I know it is three bolts, plus two at the exhaust. My question is, how likely is it that I will break something in the process of removing it (like the studs), vs how likely is it that my paint job is not going to reach all the relevant parts and I will get a rust-perforated manifold some time down the line? I could start spraying PB-Blaster on the nuts pretty much now, and continue about bi-weekly (when I check on the boat) until March. Would that substantially increase the likelihood of getting the nuts off without breaking anything?

Any thoughts welcome!
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Old 12-01-2019, 11:34 AM
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I have painted the engine (Rustoleum primer + top coat) in place with all major components (manifold/head) attached. I have also made it a habit that any time I need to remove a part from the engine (starter/alt/manifold/sideplate/dizzy/water pump/etc.) that I take it home and paint it while it is off the motor. An example, I did what Al mentioned one winter and converted the bolts to studs on the water jacket side plate, so removing the starter and dizzy and alternator made access much better, so those went home for paint in the warm(er) garage. By then, it was a no brainer to remove hoses and paint the block/head/manifold too, which I did in the spring. Using the smaller parts for practice helped a lot. It took an entire winter with a lot of downtime in between work days.

I've never removed my block/head from the boat. Old rags & bed sheets work fine for protecting overspray, and I would still have rags/drop cloths and tape around even for brushing POR-15.
I figure there is so much oil and gunk on the underside where I could not get paint, it is probably in pristine condition if I ever wipe the oil off!
I can't seem to use the [IMG] tag to link directly to them anymore, but there are several pics over the seasons that span several projects in my album..most of them involve painting engine pieces to some degree..the file names when you hover should give enough detail to see chronology.

http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...php?albumid=37










Last edited by sastanley; 12-01-2019 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 12-01-2019, 03:09 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ernst View Post
. My question is, how likely is it that I will break something in the process of removing it (like the studs),
Any thoughts welcome!
If the boat is back in commission start the engine and run it for awhile till it is good and warm. While the engine is still running loosen the nuts\bolts. The heat + vibration will help loosen them.
When you use the PBblaster tap on the nuts\bolts with hammer after applying to help it penetrate.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 12-02-2019, 10:27 PM
ernst ernst is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
I have painted the engine (Rustoleum primer + top coat) in place with all major components (manifold/head) attached. I have also made it a habit that any time I need to remove a part from the engine (starter/alt/manifold/sideplate/dizzy/water pump/etc.) that I take it home and paint it while it is off the motor. An example, I did what Al mentioned one winter and converted the bolts to studs on the water jacket side plate, so removing the starter and dizzy and alternator made access much better, so those went home for paint in the warm(er) garage. By then, it was a no brainer to remove hoses and paint the block/head/manifold too, which I did in the spring. Using the smaller parts for practice helped a lot. It took an entire winter with a lot of downtime in between work days.

I've never removed my block/head from the boat. Old rags & bed sheets work fine for protecting overspray, and I would still have rags/drop cloths and tape around even for brushing POR-15.
I figure there is so much oil and gunk on the underside where I could not get paint, it is probably in pristine condition if I ever wipe the oil off!
I can't seem to use the [IMG] tag to link directly to them anymore, but there are several pics over the seasons that span several projects in my album..most of them involve painting engine pieces to some degree..the file names when you hover should give enough detail to see chronology.

http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...php?albumid=37









Sounds good. Painting parts if they are off the motor certainly makes sense.
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Old 12-02-2019, 10:29 PM
ernst ernst is offline
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Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
If the boat is back in commission start the engine and run it for awhile till it is good and warm. While the engine is still running loosen the nuts\bolts. The heat + vibration will help loosen them.
When you use the PBblaster tap on the nuts\bolts with hammer after applying to help it penetrate.

TRUE GRIT
That is a great idea. Except that (I hope!), that ship has sailed. I hope that I can do the painting before the boat goes back into the water.
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Old 01-28-2020, 11:49 PM
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I lost my 'weather window' for this project. The boat is on the hard, the first snow (or ice pellets) is forecast, and I will likely not see temperatures over several days in the paint-compatible range until early spring.
Well, this is a mild winter! To my surprise, there were several days where painting was possible. So I went ahead with the project.

Steps:

1) Getting access: I removed the alternator, the ignition cables and the distributor. I bent the hoses away from the head. No further dismantling.

I used Saran wrap to protect starter, solenoid etc on one side and carburator (in particular the flame arrestor), fuel pump etc on the other side.

2) Degreasing/cleaning: I applied POR-15 Marine Clean (they changed the name to something else) diluted with water per instruction, using a 1" brush and a sprayer. This stuff is amazing! I focused on the head, manifold and neighboring areas, without making an effort to clean stuff 'deep under.' There is no rust there and I did not intend to paint anything there.

After application, I used another spray bottle and again a 1" brush to get off the cleaner. Took surprising little water, maybe a quart?

3) Metal Prep: Very similar procedure with "Metal Ready", the primer/rust converter from POR-15. Except that it is supposed to sit for about 1/2 hour before washing it off with water. I continued to apply small amounts of the stuff during this 1/2 hour, to avoid it to dry. Then wash it off and let it dry until a few days later when I had the next window from work.

Steps 1-3 took about 3 or 4 hours.

3) Paint: What it says. Paint with black POR-15, using again a 1" brush. The emphasis was on protecting the material, not cosmetics. I applied two coats, separated by about 5 hours. This is a bit longer than recommended (4 hours)but I had to leave in-between for a work assignment (it was mid-week). The temperature was pretty low, lower 50s, so I suppose the chemical curing reaction was a bit retarded. This took maybe a half hour per coat.

4) Cleanup and putting stuff together.

Attached photos show 'before' and 'after' Again, this is NOT a job where cosmetics was a priority, I want to protect the motor from rust.

The boat is still on the hard so of course I cannot run the motor. This will take a few more months. I will not be surprised if the paint will burn off at the hottest parts (the two ends of the manifold). If that happens, I will replace these parts with the POR-15 high-temperature paint which is ONLY suitable for very high temperatures (does not cure below).

Edit: I see I can only upload 5 photos. Will upload a few more in the next post
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Last edited by ernst; 02-02-2020 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 01-28-2020, 11:54 PM
ernst ernst is offline
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More pics, getting to the 'After' part...

Edited: If someone can tell me how to tame these gigantic images here on the forum, please do!
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Last edited by ernst; 01-29-2020 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 02-02-2020, 06:32 PM
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Al Schober Al Schober is offline
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ernst,
Your images fit fine on my monitor, but only if I have my browser window expanded to close to full screen. My monitor is 1080x1920.
How to make images smaller? I have a PC and use the Paint program/resize. I save the smaller image as a new file, amending 'sm' to the file name.
How small to make them? It's a tough call as you don't know what the ultimate viewer has for a monitor. Personally, I just make the size to suit my screen. If a viewer has a smaller screen, they can always scroll.
Curiously, Facebook accepts any size image (big ones take longer) but they all end up the same on your screen. Seems that FB processes the image to their standard, apparently geared toward the smartphone user.
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Old 02-02-2020, 07:34 PM
ernst ernst is offline
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ernst,
Your images fit fine on my monitor, but only if I have my browser window expanded to close to full screen. My monitor is 1080x1920.
How to make images smaller? I have a PC and use the Paint program/resize. I save the smaller image as a new file, amending 'sm' to the file name.
How small to make them? It's a tough call as you don't know what the ultimate viewer has for a monitor. Personally, I just make the size to suit my screen. If a viewer has a smaller screen, they can always scroll.
Curiously, Facebook accepts any size image (big ones take longer) but they all end up the same on your screen. Seems that FB processes the image to their standard, apparently geared toward the smartphone user.
Thank you, good to know that you can see the images, at least when you use the full screen. This is also the way it works for me.

So it seems there is no way to make it right for every monitor so it may not make too much of a difference what size the files are. I guess I will leave them as they are then. You would think that the forum software and the browser would communicate and sort this out but that does not seem to be the case.

(I can't use the Paint program you are suggesting since I don't use Microsoft (or Apple) products, just Linux).

Thanks for the feedback.
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Old 02-02-2020, 11:29 PM
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So it seems there is no way to make it right for every monitor so it may not make too much of a difference what size the files are.
File size makes a huge difference in aggregate server storage. I always try to keep my pictures sized at 640 px maximum dimension.
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Old 02-03-2020, 12:48 AM
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File size makes a huge difference in aggregate server storage. I always try to keep my pictures sized at 640 px maximum dimension.
Is a Megabyte or two really a topic these times? I can buy a 3Terabyte harddrive for 50 bucks and change on Amazon, and that will hold 3 BILLION photos of 1MB each. And I suppose if you buy them by the truckload, as surely the server farms do, it will be fraction of that.

Let see, if I would upload 100 such pictures every minute, day and night, it will take 57 years until I fill ONE $50,- disk.

No, I don't feel that I am abusing the hospitality of the server by uploading images in full resolution
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Old 02-03-2020, 07:56 AM
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Actually, it can be. Just last week on another forum the admin received a notification from the hosting service that they were approaching the maximum storage on their plan saying the pictures were the biggest load. They had few choices:
  • Delete pictures themselves. This would have to be done by each poster editing their own content.
  • The hosting service would delete them as necessary, oldest first to remain in plan.
  • Go to an offsite image hosting service.
  • Pay for higher storage capacity.
This forum has been struggling for a few years for a number of reasons IMHO. It's membership is small because it's for a single model of boat and is barely funded by Class Association dues which also partially funds a quarterly magazine. Registered forum membership is around 1900, paid Association membership is around 250. They are at a crossroads, either reduce the storage or find a way to feed the beast.

While our precious resource here does not suffer such malaise, it is still an example of how little things can add up. The forum limits your picture size to 1280 px for a reason. My suggestion of limiting attachment sizes further was intended as a courtesy to our host. There is nothing in a 1280 px (one dimension) picture you can't see in a 640 px pic.
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Old 02-03-2020, 01:22 PM
ernst ernst is offline
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Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Actually, it can be. Just last week on another forum the admin received a notification from the hosting service that they were approaching the maximum storage on their plan saying the pictures were the biggest load. They had few choices:
  • Delete pictures themselves. This would have to be done by each poster editing their own content.
  • The hosting service would delete them as necessary, oldest first to remain in plan.
  • Go to an offsite image hosting service.
  • Pay for higher storage capacity.
This forum has been struggling for a few years for a number of reasons IMHO. It's membership is small because it's for a single model of boat and is barely funded by Class Association dues which also partially funds a quarterly magazine. Registered forum membership is around 1900, paid Association membership is around 250. They are at a crossroads, either reduce the storage or find a way to feed the beast.

While our precious resource here does not suffer such malaise, it is still an example of how little things can add up. The forum limits your picture size to 1280 px for a reason. My suggestion of limiting attachment sizes further was intended as a courtesy to our host. There is nothing in a 1280 px (one dimension) picture you can't see in a 640 px pic.
Yes, small things do add up, and I agree with you that it is unlikely that anybody will miss details in my pictures if they were displayed with slightly lower resolution.

But we are talking about things nearly immeasurable small. Storing a picture in max resolution takes less than a MB (with compression). The cost of disk storage to do that is on the order of one-thousands of a cent. Are we really concerned about that?

But if it helps, I will in the future reduce the size of my images.

Thanks.
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Old 02-05-2020, 09:18 AM
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ernst,
One thing you could try would be to reduce the size of the original image at the source..Any real camera and even smart phones should allow you do adjust the resolution the camera is capturing.

I use free paint.net for photo editing. I just did a quick google search, and it does not run on Linux, but there are lots of alternatives out there apparently.

At any rate, my 1920 x 1080 monitor is seeing the pics OK..they are probably a little big on a smartphone's browser.

As for the painting, the progress on curbing the corrosion looks good.

Is the engine FWC ? If, so, now that you have a uniform color and it is easier to notice these things, there may be a bit of antifreeze dripping from the tee fitting in the manifold, Post #12, pic#3.
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Old 02-05-2020, 11:31 AM
ernst ernst is offline
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Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
ernst,
One thing you could try would be to reduce the size of the original image at the source..Any real camera and even smart phones should allow you do adjust the resolution the camera is capturing.

I use free paint.net for photo editing. I just did a quick google search, and it does not run on Linux, but there are lots of alternatives out there apparently.

At any rate, my 1920 x 1080 monitor is seeing the pics OK..they are probably a little big on a smartphone's browser.

As for the painting, the progress on curbing the corrosion looks good.

Is the engine FWC ? If, so, now that you have a uniform color and it is easier to notice these things, there may be a bit of antifreeze dripping from the tee fitting in the manifold, Post #12, pic#3.
Well, yes, I suppose I could adjust the size of the pictures when I take them. But I did not take these pics specifically to post them, it is more for myself to document things so I can go back later and see what I did. So I want the highest resolution possible, just in case I might need it (Google stores them for free anyway).

But you are right, there are tools in Linux to reduce the size and I will do that in the future when posting to this site.

As for your observation, YOU ARE RIGHT! I did not notice it, either in the picture nor on the motor but there is clearly a leak! It is worrying that it is there even though the motor has never been used after the painting, so it seems to seep out without any pressure. I wonder if it has to do with the pesky leak whose source I could never find (see this thread http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...ad.php?t=11118 )

Next time at the boat I will investigate and report what I find.

THANK YOU!
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Old 02-05-2020, 05:49 PM
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sastanley sastanley is offline
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If you had not had the resolution of the pic high enough we might have missed that!

FWIW, especially on boat stuff, I am always taking huge pictures and letting google store them for me as well. I usually take a few minutes to resize them before posting anywhere else besides my own computer, sometimes just to reduce load time. I lived on slow DSL internet for a long time.
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"Twice Around" - '77 Catalina 30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold.
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Old 02-06-2020, 06:40 PM
ernst ernst is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
If you had not had the resolution of the pic high enough we might have missed that!

FWIW, especially on boat stuff, I am always taking huge pictures and letting google store them for me as well. I usually take a few minutes to resize them before posting anywhere else besides my own computer, sometimes just to reduce load time. I lived on slow DSL internet for a long time.
Yes, I was in the same situation, and I am glad the DSL times are over!
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Old 02-09-2020, 08:04 PM
ernst ernst is offline
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Originally Posted by ernst View Post

As for your observation, YOU ARE RIGHT! I did not notice it, either in the picture nor on the motor but there is clearly a leak! It is worrying that it is there even though the motor has never been used after the painting, so it seems to seep out without any pressure. I wonder if it has to do with the pesky leak whose source I could never find (see this thread http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...ad.php?t=11118 )

Next time at the boat I will investigate and report what I find.

THANK YOU!
Well, I did some work on the boat yesterday and checked. Sure enough, there was unmistakably coolant under the elbow at the top of the manifold. I tried to find where it came from but could not find anything. The metal seems to be intact, I don't think there either of the two connections leaks, and the hose if fairly new.

I tightened the hose clamp a bit more (it was pretty tight already). Then I put a piece of white paper under the connection. Today it was dry.

So, I don't know what is happening. Have to keep an eye on it.
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