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  #1   IP: 24.152.131.155
Old 10-29-2012, 12:32 AM
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Hand starting

We started drifting away from coil discussion on another thread toward difficulty with hand starting so I decided to start a new thread to avoid polluting the other one further.
From RobH2:
Quote:
Yes, I do have a PCV kit installed. What would plugging it do to facilitate starting?
Again, not trying to start up the PCV debate but my opinion - a minority opinion - on the PCV system is it's a managed vacuum leak and therefore has a tendency to lean the mixture, how lean is dependent on manifold vacuum and carburetor readjustment after installation. A lean mix is exactly what you don't want when starting, especially starting cold. That's why we have a choke - to richen the mixture for starting.

I don't know that the PCV system is the reason you're having difficulty hand starting but plugging it would eliminate the possibility. What the heck, it's worth a try.
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Old 10-29-2012, 08:28 AM
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Marian Claire Marian Claire is offline
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I have started my A-4 by hand. Warm engine is easy to fire, cold takes a few more tries. I do have EI and this cranking was before I installed the resistor. I doubt it will make any differance. I must note that I have very good access to the front of the engine and that helps allot.
Blasphemy alert! Could cold hand cranking be one time that "engine crack" might be usefull??
Dan S/V Marian Claire
Edit: I do not have a PCV system.

Last edited by Marian Claire; 10-29-2012 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 10-29-2012, 08:50 AM
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Thanks for starting the new thread. I was going to do so this morning, being I was the one who opened that can of worms.

As previosly stated, I could hand crank my engine on points easily. After changing to EI, I no longer could. My next test will be to see if I am generating any spark. Maybe I'm just not cranking fast enough.
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Old 10-29-2012, 09:01 AM
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Cranking speed should have nothing to do with spark production. Intake vacuum and the ability to draw a fuel/air mixture up into the combustion chamber is another matter though.
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Old 10-29-2012, 09:50 AM
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"Thank's for the new thread"

Marker Dave,
Changing from points to an "electronic module" ignition should have actually increased your coil's output. Is it possible that your timing is set differently now than before the change? As Neil has pointed out, it is very important that every bit of vaccum possible will be needed to hand start one of these things. This would include making sure that the choke is fully closed along with plugging the PCV valve, if so equipped. I am currently in the process of "fabricating" my own starting handle and will be doing some "worst case scenerio" starting tests in the near future. These tests will include simulating a "bad starter" or "completely dead batteries. It will be fun to see if a 9 volt transistor radio battery will provide enough juice to fire an A4.
Tom
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Old 10-29-2012, 10:31 AM
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Tom I am very interested in that test too! I have often wondered if D-cell batteries wired in series would do the job because I always carry them for my flashlights.
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Old 10-29-2012, 11:41 AM
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Mike,
I'm quite sure that 12 volts worth of "D" cels would get the job done long enough for the alternator to take over. I have seen numerous "youtube" videos demonstrating A4 hand starting, but they all used a "charged" 12 volt engine battery. The "useful trick" would be in using whatever other DC source we could find to "innitiate" the firing process.
Tom
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:35 PM
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Thatch,

It's very possible I have changed the timing since I went to Electonic Ignition.
I have timing right at TDC. I will play around with it. Can't wait to hear the results of the different configurations.

Also, I may have leaky valves, I better check my compression.
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Last edited by Nahart; 10-29-2012 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 10-29-2012, 03:17 PM
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PCV lets air in just like the throttle plate does.
Once installed you richen the mixture be it idle mixture, and also if needed main jet mixture, and you should also be able to lower the idle position on the plate because of grabbing air from another source.
Once the carb is set correctly the PCV it's not really a "leak" but a different place to get air into the motor.

Some people have stated they have hand started their motors at half to full throttle then upon start, slow it back.
So that kinda throws intake vacuum, and a "leak" as a culprit of no start out the window. (to me)
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Last edited by Ball Racing; 10-29-2012 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:05 PM
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"surprise answer"

Daniel,
Since I am currently "sequestered" about 800 miles from home (no not in jail), my tests will have to wait for a couple of weeks. These tests will be done on my "bench" A4 so I should be able to record some reasonably accurate info regarding choke and throttle position and engine timing. If it does turn out that it wants to start with the throttle slightly "cracked", like with my "boat" engine, then I will definately agree with you that a well tuned PCV engine should also start just as well as a "non pcv" engine.
Tom
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
We started drifting away from coil discussion on another thread toward difficulty with hand starting so I decided to start a new thread to avoid polluting the other one further.
From RobH2:

Again, not trying to start up the PCV debate but my opinion - a minority opinion - on the PCV system is it's a managed vacuum leak and therefore has a tendency to lean the mixture, how lean is dependent on manifold vacuum and carburetor readjustment after installation. A lean mix is exactly what you don't want when starting, especially starting cold. That's why we have a choke - to richen the mixture for starting.

I don't know that the PCV system is the reason you're having difficulty hand starting but plugging it would eliminate the possibility. What the heck, it's worth a try.
My A4 is hard start when cold. Once started, it iwll start easy? My engine has points.
Once started it will start in one easy 1/4 turn with the hand crank. I have no idea why she is hard on a cold start. At times I have to spray engine start...I don't like that because I know it's bad for the engine.
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:41 PM
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Domenic,
Couple of things come to mind. Considering it starts with crack then it might be a couple of issues. Obviously you have fire.
-compression check with a guage and see what you have....first.
-try turning the mixture screw in a bit (richer) and see if there is any change.
-I worked on a carb this past summer and the reason I hauled it apart was because of hard starting. Once I got at it everything was pretty good except the mixture screw was corroded and not going in....so when he, and I, though we had richened up the mixture, we had in fact done very little for our mixture. Once I got it out and cleaned up the threads on the bench brush it ran fine after.

So, I`m thinking check compression first then go for the carb.
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball Racing View Post
Once the carb is set correctly the PCV it's not really a "leak" but a different place to get air into the motor.
Yes, a different place that does nothing to draw fuel into the combustion chamber as it's after the carb. And the amount of air entering at that point varies.

Look, all I said was maybe give plugging the PCV a try. Where's the harm in trying?
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Old 10-30-2012, 10:27 AM
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No harm in trying anything,

More harm in not trying things.
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Old 10-31-2012, 03:55 PM
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"A diversion"

Since many of our "East coast" friends are currently having to deal with the effects of "Sandy", I will offer this "hand starting" input as a diversion rather than comments on our normal "group involved fix it" commentary, so here goes.
Our A4's are very similar to the old model T and model A engines, so it stands to reason that the "hand starting" methods used on them should work on our engines as well. Starting instructions for those "early beasties" were to "place the ignition timing lever in the retard position, richen the fuel mixture and then crank the engine in a clockwise direction, (backwards from ours) with your thumb tucked under". "Once the engine is rotating on it's own, lean out the mixture and move the retard lever to its normal position". Within reasonable abilities, I will be using these instructions to create the proper way to hand start our A4's. Tests will be done in the near future.
As much as I feel a great deal of sadness for those of us like Alan, who lost his boat to this hurricane, I feel that we, collectively, should do our best to support and incourage our less fortunate friends to "rise from the ashes" and move forward.
Tom
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:05 PM
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Thatch,

Every time we have a hurricane in La. we lose power for good while. Bilge pumps overwork and in no time you have a battery too dead to start your engine. With that being said, I think Hand Cranking is an entirely appropriate and timely discussion.
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:42 PM
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"Different but the same"

Marker Dave,
In California, our power outages are normally caused by earthquakes rather than by storms or hurricanes. The results are similar and involve a similar "pre event" mentality. Where moored boats are concerned, we tie them up the best way we can and then hope for the best. With earthquakes, we prep our homes by tieing our water heaters down and use "earthquake approved" latches on our kitchen cabinets. Regardless of our efforts, we are always presented with a major amount of cleanup and repair. On a personal note, since power is always a major issue, my Honda 2000 plant is started on a monthly basis so that it is ready for emergency duty. Above all, is the overriding strength in some, that says, "regardless of what happens to me, I will do my best to see that I have done my best to see that my family and friends will be proud of my actions".
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Old 10-31-2012, 05:44 PM
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Thatch,

I certainly would rather bad weather than an earthquake. I guess it's what you're used to.

You did say something interesting about the Model T...retarding the timing. That may be a clue.

I am at TDC staticly timed. I don't cruise much, just in and out of my slip, so I haven't adjusted at cruising speed.
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:09 PM
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MD
My test engine has accurate timing marks, so adjusting the timing to check for the best "cold, handcrank starting setting" is doable. TDC or a couple of degrees before TDC has always been my favorite timing settings.
Tom
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:04 AM
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Lightbulb Test one!

Tom et all, as most of you know I am a big proponent of the PCV as it cleans up the foul gasses being expelled by the crankcase and keeps them out of the cabin. I decided to test the RPM changes at idle with and without on my engine which IS TIRED AND 42 years running so far!!!!
I have been wanting to readjust my idle as it has sped up a bit the last few cruises or 15~20 hours of run time. What I did was to start the beastie and let her warm up for 15 minutes against the docklines. After warming up and with the PCV hooked up still I observed the idle speed, then I disconnected the PCV and plugged it to observer the differance. I then readjusted the idle for no PCV (plugged) and let it settle again, then I hooked the PCV back up and observed the differance. The third step was to readjust the idle again with the PCV and then again unhook and observe.
First run with PCV 850 nice idle and 800 when unplugged~note when unplugged the idle was a bit rough.
Second run readjusted the idle for no PCV and she idled at just above 850 and then plugged the PCV back in now she idled just above 900 and rough.
I then readjusted the idle with the PCV and adjusted the idle speed for the first time down to 750 RPM's and quite smoothe. I again unhooked the PCV and the idle dropped to 700 and a bit rough. I then shut then hooked the PCV back up and there she sits now.
I only saw an increase/decrease of about 50 RPM's with/without the PCV.
I did check the idle vacuum and could not see enough change with/without to measure on my gage~~a bit less than a half inch of vac though.
Tom, on your bench motor I will be interested to see the numbers you come up with regardine RPM.
Frankly I was a bit suprised that the change was so slight.
Yes the PCV may have an influence regarding hand starting but certainly not much.

Dave Neptune
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Old 11-02-2012, 12:34 PM
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Dave,
Thank's for taking the time to do those meaningful tests. Your results fall right in line with what I would have expected. There is one other element that I feel has a significant bearing on both idle speed and the ability to successfully hand start an A4. That is the element of ignition timing. As you know, I am a firm proponant of near or "slightly" before TDC timing. At that setting both my boat engine and "Rusty", my test engine, will idle rock solid at about 600 rpm. Maintaining a solid idle, while manuvering in and out of our docks, is of prime importance and I can say that I have never "stalled" in a critical situation with this "low" idle speed. While my "retarded" timing settings probably reduce my horsepower output as compared to a "power timed" A4, I consider the lower idle and easy starting to be beneficial. In the case of boats like Daniel's power skiff, where maximum power output is desired, I agree that power timing is the sensible way to go. With that approach though, comes the probability of more "blowby" and the necessity for corrective measures like PCV valves or extraction fans. Since you and I have both been involved with higher performance engines than the A4, I'm sure that we are on the same page as to the effects of ignition lead on idle speed. I, like many others, tend to look at "designed hull speed" as the target to shoot for when dealing with my sailboat engine's output. If I can attain H.S. with "mild" tuneup settings, then that's good enough for me. My comments are not meant to be argumentative, but rather to help "sort out" our tuneup challenges.
Tom
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:32 PM
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Thumbs up Yep

Tom, I do agree with your timing procedure and am going to find my engines actual timing before I move the distributor for this off seasons project. I am fabricating a sort of "Z" attachment for my dial indicator to find TDC for sure!!! I do and have always recomended backing back down from the "max" when power timing a duty or non racing application. This does improve the "life" of the tune and makes for a smoother and better running engine!!!!
Mine too will idle in gear at 650 anytime I need to and come to life if I need any additional power~very comforting to say the least especially in manuvering in a tight anchorage.

Dave Neptune
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Old 11-02-2012, 02:09 PM
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Thank's Dave,
If there is one area that Universal failed in the design of these engines, it would be in the area of timing marks. I have toyed with the idea of making a "tool" that slips over the "flywheel end crankshaft pin" and extends up high enough so that we can better position that pin in it's verticle TDC position. Once we have done that, we can either put good marks at the accessory drive pulley or (in the case of flywheel end readers) put the TDC marks closer to the outer rim of the flywheel.
Tom
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Old 11-02-2012, 03:27 PM
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I purchased Don Moyer's video on engine timing and he has several different methods of finding true TDC and also explains the exact position to install the distributor. I highly recommend. It's only a 12 minute video and downloads in a minute.
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Old 11-03-2012, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thatch View Post
Mike,
I'm quite sure that 12 volts worth of "D" cels would get the job done long enough for the alternator to take over. I have seen numerous "youtube" videos demonstrating A4 hand starting, but they all used a "charged" 12 volt engine battery. The "useful trick" would be in using whatever other DC source we could find to "innitiate" the firing process.
Tom
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Originally Posted by 13jeff13 View Post
Yeah, ,You are correct. Don Moyer states it has to have at least 11 volts and it will still start.
Interesting. I have had motorcycles and Roto Tillers which have magnetos for generating the spark needed, for the coil and plugs,, but with these and auto engines, you need the battery to be there, and at least some voltage for the spark,, 11 Volts according to "The Man"..
Pasted from a previous post.

Jeff
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