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  #101   IP: 137.200.32.22
Old 03-19-2018, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azazzera View Post
forgive me if this has been dealt with in this thread but it brings up the event of a leak or large failure in a gas tank. How, or is it possible, to neutralize a puddle of gas in the bilge. How would that circumstance be dealt with?
Three different issues here:
1. Legal
2. Practical
3. Not dying
Legally, gasoline does not get pumped overboard and the fines are large if you get caught. The only LEGAL way to clean up a spill is collect all the gas and gas soaked materials in a container of some kind.
To not die in a ball of fire, there can be NO sparks or flames while doing your legal cleanup. My advice is everything is turned off and turned off with the vapor-proof main battery switch, not one by one with perhaps unsealed switches. Note this is a really bad time to have an automatic bilge pump that bypasses the battery switch Turn that off somehow ASAP.
Practically, you could say - just in theory - be in a situation where you weighed the odds and maybe there is no safe way to wait around for the materials to arrive for a legal cleanup. Not saying this should ever happen, but if between a rock and a hard place I read someplace that repeated flooding of the bilge with soapy water, pumping out with a HAND pump, and plenty of cleanup with rags or paper towels might do the trick if followed by a good airing out with all hatches open. I would not flood the bilge too much though, you wouldn't want to float gasoline into areas it has not reached yet. One could perhaps take some moral comfort in the fact gasoline spills evaporate quickly and no longer contain lead.

* practical hint: Paper towels, diapers, kitty litter, whatever you have on hand, can be put in a trash bag, tied tightly, and then put that bag in another one and tie that one too. That should keep the fumes under control while looking for a place to dispose of the bags.

Last edited by joe_db; 03-19-2018 at 08:44 AM.
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Old 03-19-2018, 11:00 AM
Marty Levenson Marty Levenson is offline
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bilge pump

Good advice.

Another reason to turn off the bilge pump is to keep it from pumping gas straight into the water.

An unattended Nordic Tug here on Bowen Island had a massive fuel leak, resulting in over 30 gallons in the bilge. Fortunately, the bilge pump was broken.
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Old 03-31-2018, 09:31 PM
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Today's update

After checking out the photos of how to get the leaking fuel tank out, I gave it a try.


Emptied the port side cockpit locker, disconnected all lines to tank and other connections that were in the way.

Going thru the starboard berth area, I had decent access to that side of the tank by using two access holes.

There was a wood tank brace screwed thru the fiberglass to keep the tank from sliding. Removed it.

Slid my fingers under the tank and found it was just sitting on wood supports. There was no fiberglass connecting the tank to the support.
Pulled real hard and was able to get that side of the tank to move forward a couple of inches, but then it stuck again. Rearranged myself and kicked on the side of the tank forcing it toward the port locker door. Only moved about 1 inch to the side.

Went back thru the port locker and studied the layout. It was impossible for the tank to slide to the port side because a corner of the tank was already against the side of the hull, BUT if I could slide it forward, there WAS enough space to turn the corner and lift. Only problem was an exhaust heat shield was in the way, preventing it from going forward on that side. Removed two screws, removed the shield and the space went from none to 4 inches on that side.
So now I had forward space, but the tank was still jammed.

Remembering the directions the other person said about cutting the supports, I went back to the starboard access holes with an oscillating tool. I cut about 1/4" off the support under the tank.

That did it.

With the additional wiggle room up/down and the extra space front/back, i was able to slide the tank out the port locker hole. Had to remove a couple of tank fittings to get thru the hole, but it did come out.



You can see how the corner has a 'wet look' to it. Probably the leak was there.

With the tank out, I moved on to the shift cable replacement.
It was so difficult to shift that I ordered a replacement cable previously.

The cable end in the port locker was easy enough to disconnect.
Access was great and nothing was stuck/rusted.
You can see the blue right angled heat shield in this pic.


The cable end on the tranny was another story.

Access was thru the starboard berth holes where I had just cut the tank supports.

The cable clamp was bolted to a metal arm that came off the back of the transmission. The arm was held in place by two bolts into the tranny cover.

The cable clamp bolts were so rusty it was impossible to remove them.
Took a dremel with a grinder attachment and ground off the top of one bolt. With that gone, was able to lift that side of the clamp up and remove the cable from the clamp.

The cable was connected to the tranny shift lever with a U connector and a thick pin/cotter pin holding it together.

The cotter pin came out pretty easy but the thick pin was frozen in the hole. Drizzled a little MMO over the pin and grabbed the thick end with vise grips. Slowly I was able to go back and forth and break the pin free and remove it.

At this point the shift cable was totally free and I got a good look at it. This is what a 46 year old shift cable looks like.




So as happy as I was that I got the tank and the shifter cable out, I was left with the problem of the rusty bolt on the clamp arm.

Put a ratchet on the bolts holding the arm to the tranny and THANKFULLY they were not frozen. Came out with little effort. That left the cable clamp arm free in my hand.

The end of the arm that went on the trans was still thick and strong. The end with the cable clamp was badly corroded and thin.

At that point, I called my friend who has a machine shop to ask if he could do something with that bar. He said he could.
So I drove over to his shop. After checking it out, he agreed that rusty end was not safe or serviceable. He removed the rusty bolts, cleaned it up, and welded fresh metal over the weak spots. He even sprayed it with a nice red coat of rustoleum.

By this point it was too late in the day to continue so I just went home.
Will post a pic of the cable arm next time to help understand.
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  #104   IP: 70.186.109.11
Old 04-01-2018, 05:20 PM
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This is the bar that holds the shift cable to the tranny.


What it looked like before. Definitely could have broken off cause a loss
of transmission control.


The business end now, with fresh metal welded in.


Additionally while I was in the bowels of the boat, I found the air tube from the engine ventilation blower to the rear of the boat was DISCONNECTED!!!!
When the ventilation fan was running to clear out the fumes, all it was doing was blowing them around the rear of the boat.
CHECK YOUR VENTILATION FAN EXHAUST TUBE! Make sure its connected and clear!!!

Just found the hole in the fuel tank. Was in the rear corner where the tank made contact with the wood supporting it.


Now need to find replacement tank. Original is 24 long, 16 wide, 10 high.
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Old 04-02-2018, 01:49 AM
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Flot makes a tank that will fit that space:


12 Gallon Rectangular Shaped Fuel Tank, 24″x18″x9.31″, FOLT1296m

Here's one source, but you can search for a better price:

http://www.oceanlinkinc.com/product/folt1296m/

Correction, I missed the width, sorry. I'll keep looking.
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Old 04-02-2018, 01:52 AM
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Do you have any play in the height?

If so, the same supplier has an 18" x 16" x 11.5" 12 gallon tank.
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Old 04-02-2018, 08:24 AM
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I find it mildly interesting that my 76 Ericson 27 has an aluminum tank or at least a non magnetic metal. You made me check.
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Old 04-02-2018, 09:11 AM
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How precise are the provided measurements (24 x 16 x 10)? Any wiggle room like +/- ˝"?
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Old 04-02-2018, 09:30 AM
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The height cannot be more than 10". Thats a hard limit between the support and cockpit floor.
The length cannot be more than 24" or it won't fit side to side when slid in place since the hull narrows to the rear.
The width can be +/- 2 or 3 inches as best I figure. Since I could slide the old tank forward that means it had extra width space.

After posting the last note, I found a plastic tank 24/18.5/7.25 and ordered it.
Its a 12 gallon. The tank fill doesn't line up with the deck fill hole, but that can be dealt with.
Also means I can install a fuel gauge with it.

Part number is MOELLER 032512. Got it for $207 out the door including shipping.
Fingers crossed I can work with it.


Am I ok continuing the discussion here even if I seem to have gotten past my main problem stage?

And I'll say it again, THANK YOU to everybody trying to help.

As a future reference note, the shift cable was replaced with 10' XTreme 6400CC Control Cable.
Fit perfectly.
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Old 04-04-2018, 02:29 PM
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Moeller

I'm very happy with Moeller i put in about 6 years ago. It has added benefit of visual inspection of fuel level. and now you know you have clean fuel without an old tank full of crud. good on you for all the hard work
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CajunSpike (04-04-2018)
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Old 04-04-2018, 08:02 PM
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I'm trying to do this sensibly and a little at a time.
Thanks.

A person by the name of Jeff Ashbury had a detailed write up on how to remove the tank in an Ericson 27.
He had done it before and his instructions made it possible for me. I ran into him on Facebook and told him thanks personally.
Be happy to post a link to the how-to pdf if anybody interested.

New tank came in today. Probably will try to install this weekend.
Also now have the option of a fuel gauge, that didn't exist before.
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Old 04-04-2018, 11:00 PM
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CS, As Whippet notes, if you can see the tank, you don't really need a gauge with a Moeller. Mine is under the quarterberth, but I have an access panel. I shine a flashlight thru the tank in the dark, but in the day time I can easily see the fuel level right thru the tank. I didn't bother with the complexity of adding a gauge.
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CajunSpike (04-05-2018)
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Old 04-07-2018, 09:48 PM
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Todays progress

Stopped at West Marine and bought all the hoses, clamps, barbs, etc needed to install the tank.

First order of business was to reinstall the repaired/welded shift cable arm.
Once the tranny cover bolts that hold the shift cable arm were nice and tight, the new shift cable was attached to to the arm and clamped into position. Fit perfectly. Put the pin to connect the cable to the tranny shift lever in place.
Gave the shift lever a try. Still took some effort to shift but it was infinitely better than it was with the old rusted cable.
Done!

The air vent line from the tank to the outside was totally rotten. I got a smaller size friend to come help me on that since I couldn't really fit in the port locker. She climbed in the port locker and cut out/removed the rotten hose. I gave her the new hose and clamps. Only took a few minutes. Made SURE to put a loop in the air vent line so its pretty impossible for outside water to drain into the tank.
Done!

Had some already painted 1x4's in the garage from a previous project.
Bought several pieces I thought would be useful to build up a fuel tank support.

Due to the shorter height, the tank would not jam in like the other did. Built a cradle that fits the tank outline and restrains the tank from sliding around. It was screwed down to the existing fuel tank supports. Connected up the fuel filler hose/air vent hose/fuel suction and dropped the new tank into the locker. The tank slid in the lazerette with just enough room to get it in/out as needed.


Used a fuel transfer pump to move 3 gallons from an outboard tank to the inboard tank.

Wife wanted a fuel gauge, so that settles that.
The tank already had a sending unit, and I found a $22 gauge at Pep Boys.
Pre-wired the fuel gauge, then mounted it inside the port locker. Hooked up the power/ground wires. Gauge worked with key on.
Done!

By this time it was getting late, but I did want to see if things would work.
Fully connected the fuel line and switched on the ignition. This makes the electric fuel pump kick on. I watched the see thru fuel filter expecting to see gas, but NO fuel was being sucked out of the tank. Checked the fuel line to make sure it was not kinked. Was able to freely move the line in all areas.

I disconnected the fuel suction and tried blowing into the tank, but did not get any resistance. Wondering if the suction point is higher than the 3 gallon fill level.
The fuel tank barb was installed tightly with some white sealant tape, so I don't think there's an air leak in that spot.

So at this point, I just put everything back together and called it a night.
Got a lot done, but the final point of a working fuel system still eludes me.
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Old 04-08-2018, 08:49 AM
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Looking good!

Please remember that these polyethylene tanks will expand up to 3% once fuel in put in the first time. That could mean 3/4" in overall length and less for the other dimensions. Can your side restraint boards be adjusted if necessary ?
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Old 04-08-2018, 11:18 AM
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I left about a 1" gap on both ends of the cradle. About 1/4" in the middle. Actually wondering if I left too much space.

Do not yet have something to limit the tank from moving UP.
Have ideas but not done yet.
Hoping to go back and continue today.
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Old 04-08-2018, 11:41 AM
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If you can't suck fuel out and there are no bubbles when you blow air in, one of these four things has happened:
1. You got the vent and fuel supply hoses reversed.
2. The tank holds a lot of unusable fuel.
3. The pickup tube fell off.
4. The pickup tube was never installed.
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Old 04-08-2018, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunSpike View Post
I left about a 1" gap on both ends of the cradle. About 1/4" in the middle. Actually wondering if I left too much space.

Do not yet have something to limit the tank from moving UP.
Have ideas but not done yet.
Hoping to go back and continue today.

I wouldn't worry about vertical expansion as it looks like you have lots of space. As for having too much room, once the tank settles it's far easier to add material to make it snug.
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CajunSpike (04-08-2018)
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Old 04-09-2018, 12:18 AM
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The sides of the cradle go up about 1/2 way on the tank.

I made the side walls with 1x3's screwed down to a base made of 1x4's.
Didn't use plywood because if it gets wet, the water can drain thru the boards instead of getting stuck on a flat surface.

It would take a massive amount of motion to make the tank lift up...still though its only right to hold it down. May just use a tie down strap.

Went back to boat today. Rather than assume the worst about the gas tank, I had the idea to use a different fuel pump.

Knowing any fuel pump that feeds a carburetor could flood it, I put a very low pressure pump(1-4 psi) on the carb.

I also had a high volume/pressure pump that I used to transfer fuel from tank to tank.

I disconnected the tank suction line to the carb and hooked the transfer pump to that line.

Switched it on and within a few seconds the clear filter filled with fuel.
Had the pump output going back to the fuel fill, in a loop.

Now that the air was out the filter/lines, I shut down the big pump and reconnected the carb pump.

Hit the key, started the motor(so glad I can actually do that thanks to you guys!) and watched the clear fuel filter. Within a few seconds, the fuel did begin to flow thru the clear filter to the carb pump. I'm guessing it took more power to suck the fuel up the air bound tank suction than the carb pump could do. Ran the engine for about 20 minutes shifting fwd/reverse now and then. Shifter was so stinking wonderful with a new shift cable. Had also pumped out/refilled the engine crank case with fresh oil eariler. Motor sounded so good and quiet it was unbelievable. I just sat there for a while listening to the smooth burble of great engine.

So that this point all the major mechanical systems appear to be working.
Yes there's a lot other things to do such as does the fresh water tank work?
Do all the lights inside/outside work..and on...and on.

But I mean this in all sincerity, without a working engine which this team of friends helped me get figured out and running, nothing else mattered.

Thank you all.

So in the space of 3 months, this boat has gone from a non working hole in the water to something that can actually be taken out for a ride.

I'm feeling what I have to do next wouldn't be too interesting to the group. Be glad to check in now and then or continue my logs if ya'll want me to. So glad I found about about this place.

Will be ordering spare engine tune up kit shortly.

One question does come to mind.

The seawater pump is on the rear of the engine obviously.
The engine is enclosed on 3 sides by fiberglass walls.

I was afraid it would be difficult to remove the cover plate to get to the pump impeller as the space is tight.

As I was reconnecting the shift cable, I saw the raw water pump cover was held on by four thumb screws.

Have you seen this design before? Is this how the pump cover is usually attached?
Saves trying to get what I thought would be 4 machine screws off in tight, confined, and dark area.
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Old 04-09-2018, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunSpike View Post
I'm feeling what I have to do next wouldn't be too interesting to the group????. Be glad to check in now and then or continue my logs if ya'll want me to.
.
I think it would be great if you continue to post your progress getting the boat in ship shape. You certainly have above average abilities and do a great job of posting. Others for sure could learn from you.
This forum is pretty much a full service forum - not just about engines.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 04-09-2018, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunSpike View Post
I also had a high volume/pressure pump that I used to transfer fuel from tank to tank.
>>>>>>


The seawater pump is on the rear of the engine obviously.

As I was reconnecting the shift cable, I saw the raw water pump cover was held on by two thumb screws.

Have you seen this design before? Is this how the pump cover is usually attached?
Saves trying to get what I thought would be 4 machine screws off in tight, confined, and dark area.
1 - If you can't prime with your normal pump, this may be an issue in the future.
2. https://moyermarine.com/product/mmi-...t-csob_10_370/
Do you have something like that?
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Old 04-09-2018, 10:23 AM
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I always try to explain things as thoroughly as possible. Long ago, an english teacher said "When you're writing something, the other people only know you through your words, so do it correctly and everyone will have a good impression of you".

Any compliment from this group is truly appreciated.
This is who you're helping. :-)

All my photos are hosted on my own at home server. :-)

I didn't really inspect the water pump to know clearly what it has.
I happened to see the thumb screws on the water pump plate when my head was in there and thought that was a great idea. I'll check it out better next time I'm on the boat. I do like that kit though.

As for the fuel pump, the thought did occur to me what would I do if it 'lost prime' again and I don't have the transfer pump.

When I got the boat, what looks to be the original Universal electric fuel pump was installed. Couldn't get it working so replaced it, but still have it. Later I found out that pump was on a separate manual power switch. That pump is still in the cabin. I suppose I should test it to see if it works. Wouldn't take much plumbing to reconnect it as needed, if its functional.

Not mechanical related, but these are other things I did on last visit.

Setup:
The front pulpit has 4 contact points to the deck.
The rear deck attachment points are part of the pulpit itself.
The front two supports are just rods that go from the deck to the pulpit metal and were connected to the pulpit metal by small allen screws thru a T connector.


Story:
I had a shifting issue the first and only time I took the boat out to try the engine. Was coming in dead slow and thought it would be better to aim for a piling instead of another boat, if reverse didn't work. Sure enough the shifter was so difficult, I couldn't get it into reverse in time to stop the boat. I bumped into a piling with the nose of the boat. This lifted the pulpit metal enough to separate it from the front support rods. The allen screws were nowhere to be found. Put the front supports back in place. Took a small drill bit and went thru and thru both the support rod and T joint. Inserted a cotter pin and bent the pin ends, to hold the joint together.

Setup: The cabin outside handrails(93") are in bad shape as you may expect of a 45 year old boat. On the port side, 3 of the 7 handrail attachment bolts have rusted thru and thru, leaving open(have sealed them as best I could) holes in the cabin roof. The rails are 93" long and are teak. I've looked and can't find anything close to them. So I need to take them off but not destroy them.

Story: I tried to remove 1 attachment screw the right way but quickly found out it was rusted beyond that point. Time for plan B. The power tools I had was a dremel, oscillating tool, and a drill. Thought if I slice into the wood parallel with the handrail, perhaps I could just cut the screw without destroying the wood. It would leave just a slice that could be filled with putty. Tried with the oscillating tool but promptly dulled the bit. Was a wood bit not a metal bit. Ouch.
Put a grinding wheel on the dremel next. It did seem to make progress but the wood slowed the rpm enough so it was not effectively cutting the screw.
Was late in the day so stopped at this point. I think I will bring a jigsaw with a metal cutting blade next time. Can drill a hole thru the wood near the screw. Use that as a pilot hole to insert the jigsaw to cut the bolts. This pretty much should slice the bolts and not totally destroy the wood.

Several weeks ago, I bought a small fluid transfer pump to suck engine oil out the dip stick hole.
It worked wonderfully and made an oil change very very very easy. Old oil was quite black, but other wise clear. No indication of water.

Also was digging in the cabinetry.

Found the sink drain was just open to the bilge. There IS a thru hull fitting directly in line to the sink drain but the two are not connected.

Found a tiny 2 blade propeller. I read on the back of that box lid that the boat had a foldable prop. Guess this was the original prop.

There is power button that I don't know for sure what it does, under the sink. I suspect, since the wires run to the front of the boat and the switch is near the sink, it may be a on/off switch for a fresh water pump. That way you could get water to the sink from the front water tank.

Thats it till next weekend.
Hope this is interesting reading.
As always, comments/suggestions/ideas needed and welcome.
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Atomic 4

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You may want to move the continuing saga over to the off-topic boat construction/repair category.

The worsening unavailability of teak in lengths, widths and thicknesses is due to over over-foresting of the Burmese supply. It has been an issue since the 70's and it's not getting better. Plantation teak has helped but only a little and at a sacrifice in quality. When I built my Westsail in the mid 80's the side dips of the bulwarks required something like an 8" x 8" x 3' solid piece to band saw out a compound curve S section, four of them. My teak supplier just laughed at me, "There aren't any teak trees that big left in the world!" I was forced to build blocks out of 8/4 teak and live with the seam lines. I was fortunate however to find 12' handrails.

Speaking of handrails, there's nothing that says they have to be a single piece. Please look at this picture of another Westsail. You'll notice the segmented handrails and to my eye they look just fine.
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prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
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Nice boat and valid idea. Just hoping not to put more holes in the roof but will go that way if no other options.

Found out a company called Plasteak that will custom make plastic replacement
handrails to your spec. They have the color of teak without the maintenance.
Its an idea.

Was thinking the ongoing story should be elsewhere.
Will probably do that.
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Atomic 4

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feedback

Just wanted to say I appreciate you kept us up to date on the closure of your series of issues.

It's frustrating for our experts out there (I'm not one of them) to give advice and never learn what happened. So you did fine job keeping the group informed.

In my view, you've earned the A4 merit badge. Well done
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Transferring

Going to the Ericson 27 page since most of what I have to do from this point, is model specific.

Feel free to follow along there.

http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...ad.php?t=10640
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