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  #1   IP: 128.183.140.38
Old 05-09-2011, 12:17 PM
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Dripless shaft packing

While I was on the hard and had the engine out for a rebuild, I repacked the shaft packing with a combination of the graftek packing and the moldable dripless packing. One ring of graftek at the beginning and the end, and the moldable dripless packing in the middle, everything saturated with the synthetic grease that came with the moldable packing.

The instructions say to hand tighten, then start and run, tightening by 1/8 turn at a time until the driping stops. They then caution that the stuffing box will run hotter than a "wet" one, but should be kept under 140 deg.

My problem is that I can't seem to achieve this state. When I first started with it hand tightened, it didn't drip but got too hot. I loosened it and started creeping up on it, but even with the drip rate at 5 seconds, the temp was climbing up to 150 deg with the shaft turning at about 1000 RPM (engine at 2000 RPM, 2:1 v-drive reduction) and the creek water at 68 deg.

A friend at the same marina has a similar setup, and his runs 75 deg with no drips.

I'm at a loss, and I really don't want to have to pull the boat (I just put it in!) and redo the packing.

Any suggestions?
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Old 05-09-2011, 12:31 PM
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Packing

Hi Edward,

I have "heard" that the moldable packing stuff is no good (as you are observing).

I recommend this stuff (see photo). I'll running both cool and "dry".

You can change it in the water, just move quickly and use a rag to block water flow for the 15 minutes that it takes.

-Rick
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Old 05-09-2011, 01:06 PM
tartansailboat tartansailboat is offline
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Rick, can you tell me where you purchased this GTU packing? Web site or Worst Marine??
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Old 05-09-2011, 01:11 PM
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Jamestown distributors

Jamestown Distributors.

Fairly cheap ($12?).

Good stuff. A square rope of gortex/carbon fiber.


-Rick
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Old 05-09-2011, 01:45 PM
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Rick,

The GTU is the stuff I used. The moldable is only for the "interior" rings. You need one ring of some kind of braided packing at each end to hold the moldable in place.

I've heard a number of stories, both good and bad, on the moldable. I did a lot of research. It seems that when you get it right, it works perfectly. My friend has been running it on his Bristol 40 for many years without a single problem.

As for redoing the packing in the water, it will take a LOT longer than 15 min! I have a v-drive. The shaft log sits directly under the engine and transmission, and in-between the engine rails, making access EXTREMELY limited. Tools over 3-4 inches just won't fit. And you can't get "behind" the packing nut to see into it. Even just tightening it is a major deal. See the picture below.

My cutlass bearing is way out on a strut, not in the deadwood. This means that the end of the shaft tube is completely open around the shaft by about 3/8 inch or more. This will admit a LOT of water very quickly when the packing nut is off. One thing I've been considering is going over the side (Brrrr!) and using some modeling clay to seal the open end of the shaft tube to make the water flow manageable. Has anyone tried this?
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Last edited by edwardc; 05-09-2011 at 05:33 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 05-09-2011, 02:02 PM
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Maine Sail

Edward,

If you read the second page on Maine Sail's stuffing box tutorial he describes the problem you can expect with the green clay/dripless packing stuff: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/stuffing_box

Modeling clay would probably work to seal up the shaft as would a wax toilet bowl ring.
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Old 05-09-2011, 02:33 PM
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Caleb,

Maine Sail's page was one of the resources I used in my research. But I was concerned with some of his conclusions and explainations. For example, he was concerned that the syntef (which came with the moldable dripless packing) had completely sealed any waterflow. But that's the way it's SUPPOSED to work. It really is supposed to be "dripless", not "drip less". It will run hotter than a "Wet" packing, but the packing and the synthetic grease are supposed to hold up to the higher temperatures without breaking down and loosing lubrication.

Another was his claim that "Cavitation bubbles" in reverse could trap air in a shaft that didn't drip. But cavitation "bubbles" are actually vacuum, not air. The prop literally "tears a hole" in the water during cavitation. No air is involved.

I found most of his page to be very helpfull, and the photos to be great.

I'm beginning to wonder if shaft wear is my problem.
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Old 05-09-2011, 03:16 PM
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IIRC, cavitation bubbles are steam, not vacuum. Water will boil at ambient temperature at very low pressures. So "sort of" a vacuum

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardc View Post
Caleb,

Maine Sail's page was one of the resources I used in my research. But I was concerned with some of his conclusions and explainations. For example, he was concerned that the syntef (which came with the moldable dripless packing) had completely sealed any waterflow. But that's the way it's SUPPOSED to work. It really is supposed to be "dripless", not "drip less". It will run hotter than a "Wet" packing, but the packing and the synthetic grease are supposed to hold up to the higher temperatures without breaking down and loosing lubrication.

Another was his claim that "Cavitation bubbles" in reverse could trap air in a shaft that didn't drip. But cavitation "bubbles" are actually vacuum, not air. The prop literally "tears a hole" in the water during cavitation. No air is involved.

I found most of his page to be very helpfull, and the photos to be great.

I'm beginning to wonder if shaft wear is my problem.
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
IIRC, cavitation bubbles are steam, not vacuum. Water will boil at ambient temperature at very low pressures. So "sort of" a vacuum
True, I just didn't want to digress too much into a side topic. The point is, as the bubbles collapse, the pressure goes back up, the water vapor condenses back out, and the bubbles are gone. There's no air involved. I think there's a general misconception that cavitation is caused by sucking air into the propeller, such as you get with an outboard when the prop gets too near to the surface. And when someone gets the physics wrong, and then uses it to try to support their position, I start to get skeptical of their position.

Guess that makes me an old curmudgeon!

But to return to my last question, how much, and what type of, shaft wear is too much? Does it have to be visible "grooving", or is even a wide shallow region of wear bad, even if it's minimal? My PO did not pack the shaft properly, using many pieces of very undersized packing instead of rings of the correct size. I'm beginning to wonder if this didn't harm the shaft. It used to drip like mad when running, almost a steady stream. That was one of my motivations to repack it when the engine was out.
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:20 PM
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Exclamation Fwiw

Edward, I have seen others that have tried to meld the two have the same problem. Go for the straight GTU and be done with it. It still runs warmer but requires no lubrication. The additional warmth could have easily softened the lube enough to let it run out, a common problem with the flax type as well.
Since going to the GTU mine runs a bit warmer and barely drips at all unless running at which it drips about every 20+ seconds or so and that is at 2200 with a direct drive 1" shaft. It's been in for 5 years now and adjusted twice since it set after a few tweaks when new.
The GTU runs a bit wet but barely, and almost not at all when sitting.

Dave Neptune
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Old 05-09-2011, 06:59 PM
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I am using the green mold-able drip-less packing and have been for approximately 500 engine hours. I remove it to inspect and replace it every couple of seasons. I have not had any problems whatsoever. The shaft log does run warm (but not hot). Warm in this case is 10 to 20 degrees above ambient temp.

Two questions: Did you use enough of the lubricant? (I grease the be-jeebers out of mine). Second, does your friend who is using the mold-able with no problems use flax packing or GTU? I have used flax and teflon impregnated flax with my setup.
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Old 05-09-2011, 07:55 PM
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Edward,
I figured you had probably seen Maine Sail's tutorial which, after all is only his opinion.
My opinion is that allowing a few drops of water through when underway helps to both lubricate and control the temperature of the stuffing box.
When I repacked our stuffing box over 5 years ago I used Gore GFO 1/4" packing only and it has worked like a charm with very minimal dripping. (Note to self: check current stuffing box temp underway).
I even bought a kit for the green clay packing and then read MS's opinions on it and I haven't used it yet. I have no personal experience with using this product so I can't offer advice or an opinion on it.
Your engine is in great shape though. Your 'V' drive certainly does locate the stuffing box in a very awkward space. Maybe an overnight or lunchtime 1 hour haul out give you the time to do the deed.

Best of luck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardc View Post
Caleb,
Maine Sail's page was one of the resources I used in my research. But I was concerned with some of his conclusions and explainations. For example, he was concerned that the syntef (which came with the moldable dripless packing) had completely sealed any waterflow. But that's the way it's SUPPOSED to work. It really is supposed to be "dripless", not "drip less". It will run hotter than a "Wet" packing, but the packing and the synthetic grease are supposed to hold up to the higher temperatures without breaking down and loosing lubrication.

Another was his claim that "Cavitation bubbles" in reverse could trap air in a shaft that didn't drip. But cavitation "bubbles" are actually vacuum, not air. The prop literally "tears a hole" in the water during cavitation. No air is involved.

I found most of his page to be very helpfull, and the photos to be great.

I'm beginning to wonder if shaft wear is my problem.

Last edited by CalebD; 05-09-2011 at 08:02 PM.
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Old 05-10-2011, 06:10 AM
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Max wobble on cutlass bearing allowed?

What is the rule of thumb for telling when a one inch shaft needs a new
cutlass bearing? How much wobble when wiggled by hand is allowable
before replacement is required?

Thanks and Regards

Art
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Old 05-10-2011, 08:12 AM
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>< One thing I've been considering is going over the side (Brrrr!) and using some modeling clay to seal the open end of the shaft tube to make the water flow manageable. Has anyone tried this?

Yes, I've done this myself (actually a diver did it for me) and it does work. I wouldn't leave the boat for any length of time though.
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Old 05-10-2011, 09:20 AM
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[QUOTE=tenders;36694]>< One thing I've been considering is going over the side (Brrrr!) and using some modeling clay to seal the open end of the shaft tube to make the water flow manageable. Has anyone tried this?/QUOTE]

How about that foam caulking backer? That was my plan next time I had to repack in the water. I was thinking it could even be stuffed into the inner end of the log around the shaft for the same purpose.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:22 AM
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tartansailboat...you can get it at Worst Marine also..my package was $16 or so...that plus tax probably matches Jamestown's price with shipping.

ed - I am running 2 rings of gore tex packing I purchased from a local marina. It still runs hot. - A Catalina friend in California mentioned on the Catalina Yahoo Group that 'not all 1/4" goretex packing is the same' - he reports that when he went to the GTU at WM, his heat problems went away & the WM GTU brand was maybe a little smaller in diameter than what he took out...contributing to less heat generation I guess.

I took a sample of my current generic packing from the marina to WM when I picked up the GTU. They appeared to be the same size with manual calipers. I am going to inspect it more carefully, at home with my digital micrometer and no dumb WM sales guy breathing down my neck, but for the $16 I've already spent, I may just try the WM stuff anyway to see if it cools down the stuffing box. I also picked up one of those infrared thermometers over the winter, and plan to do some testing & recording of temps prior to ripping things apart..a warmer-than-i'd-like stuffing box is really the least of my concerns right now.
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Old 05-10-2011, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marthur View Post
Two questions: Did you use enough of the lubricant? (I grease the be-jeebers out of mine).
Yep, it was slinging the excess grease around (as they warned it would).


Quote:
Originally Posted by marthur View Post
Second, does your friend who is using the mold-able with no problems use flax packing or GTU? I have used flax and teflon impregnated flax with my setup.
He's using the teflon packing from Western Pacific Trading. The GTU wasn't available when he did it.
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Old 05-10-2011, 11:24 AM
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I was at the boat again last night, trying to sort this out. No luck yet but have a couple of clues.

As Maine Sails noted, the ends of the GTU tends to fray easily. I noticed that about 3/16" of frayed end is actually poking out between the shaft and the packing nut. This probably means that things are binding pretty tightly there.

And the temp does run hottest at that end of the nut.

I also loosened the lock nut and tried to back the packing nut way off. I found that after a half turn, the packing nut started binding on the shaft, enough that I couldn't turn it by (greasy) hand. This implies that the shaft is somewhat worn at the working area, and gets thicker further out.

Lastly, I got a leftover scrap of the GTU I used and measured it. It looks to be 5/16". I'll have to go back to my order info to confirm it. My shaft is 1 1/8", and my Buck Algonquin stuffing box nut has 2" flats. I looked at the recommended shaft sizes for GTU, and they say to use 1/4" for shafts from 1" to 1 1/8". So maybe my stuffing size is too large. It did require some squishing to get it into the packing nut.
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Old 05-10-2011, 11:28 AM
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ed, I don't think it should need to be squished to install...the "squish" comes in when you tighten down the nut...It sounds like you are leaning this way already, but if it was me. I'd try 1/4" GTU and see what the result is.
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Old 05-10-2011, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
ed, I don't think it should need to be squished to install...the "squish" comes in when you tighten down the nut...It sounds like you are leaning this way already, but if it was me. I'd try 1/4" GTU and see what the result is.
Shawn,

It gets even curiosier. The Buck Algonquin site shows 3/16" packing for their boxes for 1 1/8" shafts. They don't go up to 1/4" until a 1 1/4" shaft.

I had actually ordered some 3/16 GTU, but it seemed way undersized, and I traded it to my marina for what looked to be 1/4 but may have been 5/16.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:25 PM
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Talking

I went down to the 3/16" size on a 1" shaft and got better results. Less tightening required. Also, if you have room for it, change the position of the packing with a longer or shorter hose.
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Old 05-11-2011, 11:04 AM
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I've Never Tried This But It Sounded Good To Me

Use plumbers putty to seal around the shaft when repacking while in the water.
I know plumbers putty is waterproof and easy to find at your local hardware store.
Just thought I would pass it along............

TRUE GRIT
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Old 05-12-2011, 01:24 AM
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I've ordered both 3/16" and 1/4" GTU, and have a block of modeler's clay in hand. This weekend I'm going to give it a try.
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Old 05-12-2011, 06:25 AM
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I converted my stuffing box over to a pss shaft seal years ago and love it. No packing ,nothing to keep up. Anybody else use one of these?
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Old 05-12-2011, 10:43 AM
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mikke60,
Recently I ran the question by a very reliable source about why my PSS seal system has developed a considerable leak. His responce was (based on many years in the marine industry) that when they are working correctly they are great but when the seal surfaces become damaged they, at least in some cases, begin working like a water pump. In boats like my Catalina 30, where access for adjustment and flax changing is very good, I would recommend sticking with a regular type of stuffing box, which is what I will be changing back to at my next haulout.
Tom
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