#1
IP: 12.167.64.68
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Catalina 30, Atomic 4 - Dies no apparent reason
First season on 1980 Catalina 30 w/ Atomic 4. This spring she ran great. About the time summer heated up she started to die after leaving mooring. Starts right back then dies again shortly after putting in gear. Fresh fuel w/ MMO, 2 new inline filters & plugs. Fuel tank vent is clear. Plug wires, coil, & carb are fairly new/rebuilt per last owner. Idles fine & sounds great without load but when in gear for a short time slowly shuts down. I have found that when it starts to bog down if I shift into neutral will idle fine, wait few moments put in gear go short distance & repeat. Appreciate advice what to try to get back running smoothly again. Thank you.
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#2
IP: 68.173.38.216
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Will it run under load better with the choke engaged? If so maybe one of the 'jets' in the carb is clogged. There is an idle jet and a main jet as I recall. I've gotten pretty good at removing the carb to work on it after 3 or 4 attempts.
If you don't have the MMI A4 manual yet you should think about getting a copy. It is also possible there is an exhaust system restriction/back pressure situation but hopefully it is just your carb. Disclaimer: I'm not an expert. I've only 'owned' an A4 for about 8 years. Sometimes I think that it owns me! |
#3
IP: 71.118.13.238
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Slow and then go
I had a similar issue and it turned out to be the mechanical fuel pump was no longer moving enough fuel. Rebuilt the pump and no more problem.
It does sound like fuel delivery issue. When it's there it runs as it the fuel fades away so does the power until it dies. If it's an electirc punp check the preassure at the carb. Dave Neptune |
#4
IP: 12.167.64.68
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I have not applied partial choke when it starts to bog down, but will give it a try.
I do have a MMI A4 manual, but I have not pulled the carb off yet. Sounds like that will be the next step. After viewing other similar posts I was wondering about the exhaust system back pressure. May have to get into that sooner than I planned on. This A4 has the electric fuel pump. After I changed the two inline fuel filters I pumped about a quart of fuel into a glass container to check for possible water/separation, but there was none. Is there a special marine fuel pressure gauge to check the pressure? If so do you have recommendations on where to get one? Thank you very much for your input! |
#5
IP: 173.166.26.241
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I have read a few posts on this forum that suggest the exhaust hose on a Catalina 30 is difficult to access. This means it is a good candidate for trouble. But before getting into that I would check the easy stuff, like the ignition switch.
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#6
IP: 206.125.176.3
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Dbschulz,
Hanley is right about the exhaust hose...However, when I acquired my '77 C-30 and noticed the failing exhaust hose, the hose in the worst condition was right near the muffler. The 'hidden' parts were not in nearly as bad a shape. Mine was starting to 'spring out' the rusted wire wound inside. At any rate, if it is dying unexpectedly, but starts right up, I would think it's an issue with fuel supply...whether the pump or more likely something in the carb...i.e., it sounds like it will run with no load, but when you put it in gear, the load kills it. My issue related to that was a piece of teflon thread tape in the carb bowl/jet. I have since then learned that the gasoline breaks down that silly teflon pretty quick and have removed it from the fuel system. Some people don't use any sealer, but I now use the Permatex #3 for just about everything...on gaskets, & as a thread sealer for the fuel system. A fuel pressure gauge should provide some more feedback..if the pressure is good and it is still dying, I'd look at the carb itself for a blockage. The symptoms of a clogged exhaust are inability to get to full throttle, but it should not kill the motor.
__________________
-Shawn "Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109 "Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!) |
#7
IP: 12.167.64.68
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Yes, the exhaust system on Catalina 30's is difficult and hoping to make that a fall/winter project.
I'm not sure when the carb was last overhauled, but it is a newer MMI carb. Is it safe to take it off for cleaning before ordering a kit or will that set it up for potential vacuum leaks? Thank you for your advice. -Don S |
#8
IP: 173.166.26.241
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If you take the carb apart most likely the gasket will need to be replaced. I like to have parts in hand before disassembling anything. You probably know that we have two recent threads with your symptoms and in both cases an exhaust hose blockage was found to be the problem.
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#9
IP: 71.130.25.246
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"Catalina 30's unite!"
Don,
Welcome to the Catalina 30/Atomic 4 web site, just kidding guys. Another possibility that falls in line with your symptoms is a blocked fuel pickup in the tank. It can normally be removed with some effort but if it's too stubborn try blowing some air back into that fitting which should clean it up a certain amount, at least for test purposes. While you're in the tank area check for leaks, particularly in the lowest corner. Several of us have had to replace our 30 year old tanks recently because of leaks. Tom "78 Catalina 30, Kari On" |
#10
IP: 68.173.38.216
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This forum is really great.
And the Catalina 30 owners aren't too bad either!
I enjoy watching this group contribute to nearly every post about a problem A4. There isn't much that hasn't been tackled by someone in this group except perhaps a cracked oil pan. As others have said, check out the carb first as it is the easiest thing to do. It is probably worth having the re-build kit even if you don't really need all of it now. At least it has the gaskets you likely will need. Hopefully that will perk up your A4. If not then you likely know that the exhaust system needs to be looked at next. This forum can also be a bit like the radio show 'Car Talk'. I'm surprised no one has asked you: "What sound does your A4 make when it loses power in gear and dies?" |
#11
IP: 138.88.73.244
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Don, I would have a carb flange gasket in hand before removing the carb as hanley recommended. If you haven't removed it yourself successfully, it will likely come apart in pieces when you separate them. I put a dab of that Permatex on the carb side of the gasket on re-assembly so that hopefully the flange side will come off clean when I need to remove the carb for cleaning.
incidentally, the flange (manifold side of the carb connection) is hard to see, so maybe an inspection mirror would be useful to make sure you've cleaned the flange well to accept the new gasket. Moyer is great about shipping out parts quickly...I am close, so I can call them at lunch time and I have the parts the next day! Whenever I order gaskets, I always order two..that way i always have a spare for next time. The price of the gaskets is cheap, so if you gotta pay $10 for shipping, might as well have spares!
__________________
-Shawn "Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109 "Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!) |
#12
IP: 12.167.64.68
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Step Closer
I believe the issue is going to be the exhaust back pressure.
Without replacement gaskets on hand I chose to not take the carb apart this past weekend. I did find a fair amount of exhaust & water spraying out of a hot section joint, so am still working to take the hot section apart on the water and look for the restriction. Have any Catalina 30 owners out there done this before and do you have any suggestions, or pitfalls to avoid, on the hot section to the water lift muffler? Is the water lift muffler as simple as it sounds? Are there baffles or could there be blockage inside the muffler? I'm off to work on my MMI gasket(s) shopping list...Thanks for everyones input. |
#13
IP: 138.88.73.244
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Don,
there are some baffles/different length pipes in the muffler, so it isn't an empty container I don't think. I took my exhaust apart this summer to allow for wrench access for engine alignment, and I completely rebuilt (the exhaust system) just 16 months ago..It came apart pretty easy, but that I am sure was due to its young age. I was able to rinse out the muffler & shake out the debris (mine is the plastic Vetus) but you should be able to hear stuff rattling around in there if debris is in fact in the muffler. The mixer elbow between the hot section & muffler is likely the cause of the blockage..sometimes you can clear it with a metal object like a coat hanger, but it is usually pretty hard stuff and may require removal and chipping away on a bench/vise, etc.. Start spraying any bolts/nuts/studs with PB Blaster so it can sit for a day or two and hopefully loosen up those parts. The repeated heat cycles from cold to hot like to fuse all those parts together! I found my exhaust hose was failing, my boat is a 1977 hull.
__________________
-Shawn "Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109 "Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!) |
#14
IP: 12.167.64.68
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Shawn,
I too have a "plastic" muffler. It appears to be permanently attached to a piece of 'leveling' plywood. Does it need to be removed to flush the muffler or dare I reverse flush it with a hose into the bilge? Do you know how to determine when to replace the muffler? Mine is 30 years old this year. Thanks for the advice! -Don |
#15
IP: 161.213.49.1
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It MAY Not Be The Engine!!!
If you have not done so already check your prop and shaft to see if they are clear.
I had the same problem and symptoms you are having. Cause:There was a big ball of fish line and sea weed wrapped around the prop. A gummed up "stuffing gland" can cause this problem also. TRUE GRIT Last edited by JOHN COOKSON; 08-16-2010 at 06:17 PM. |
#16
IP: 138.88.73.244
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Don,
I learned from the P.O. that my boat originally had the stainless water lift, but the Vetus has been in at least 20 years. I have the 'leveling' wood also, but my muffler just sits on it. I suspect the OEM stainless muffler may have been mounted there, but I think you'll find the stiff hoses are making the plastic muffler appear to be attached...although someone may have secured it with adhesive to the wood (4200, 5200??) I would get the hoses off of it, and see if you can remove it...I would not count on the muffler itself being clogged enough to cause a big issue, but it may be a contributor. I didn't have tons of debris, but some was rattling around in there. When you look at the exhaust hose (near the muffler as it heads off behind the stove) how does it look? Mine had the wires popping out (it was original 1977 hose!)
__________________
-Shawn "Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109 "Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!) |
#17
IP: 12.167.64.68
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Not the Exhaust
The exhaust hot section needs to be replaced due to age, but there was no blockage and the wet section hose is in good shape as far as I could look into it.
I did check the shaft/prop for fouling a week or so back and it was clear. Received an assortment of gaskets and hot section parts from MMI, so new plan, after replacing hot section, will be to remove and clean the carburetor, recheck fuel tank vent and pick up tube strainer. Not knowing the age of the fuel lines I will likely replace all of it from the tank to carb. Thanks for all the suggestions. No doubt it will be running in tip-top shape soon.
__________________
-Don "Vahevala" 1980 C30, #1811 |
#18
IP: 138.88.73.244
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Don,
I am not an expert on anything, but if you want some hot section ideas, check out my thread from when I did mine on my C-30 in 2009 and also Neil's discussion about hot exhausts in general My C-30 hot section thread - http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2974 Neil's thread - http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3995
__________________
-Shawn "Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109 "Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!) |
#19
IP: 135.11.3.4
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I ordered the flange and water injection fitting from Moyer. Measured the
old hot section and went to the local supply house and bought the pieces. I think all together I paid less then $125 and that includes new hoses and clamps. Steve |
#20
IP: 12.167.64.68
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Thanks for the threads!
Quote:
I had a similar vision to your new hot section, but for some reason I have less headroom than you do. That said I will be lucky to use a 1" to 2" nipple between the first two elbows. My white-square-fiberglass-water-lift sits several inches higher than your Vetus so have several lengths of pipe to test fit from the last elbow to the water-lift. I didn't know 6" was the preferred distance for the water mixer from the muffler--the old section only had about 3"-4"...thanks for that piece of info! As mentioned in Neil's thread, I wondered about galvanized pipe off gassing in the cabin, but my Lowes & Home Depots had limited black pipe so I have a combination of black & galvanized. I did 'bake' the galvanized pieces on a gas grill at ~500 degrees for ~3hours hoping to reduce the smoking & gassing when installed. Thanks again for all of your ideas. I'll post some pictures of the finished project.
__________________
-Don "Vahevala" 1980 C30, #1811 |
#21
IP: 206.125.176.3
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sweet...keep us posted!
__________________
-Shawn "Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109 "Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!) |
#22
IP: 70.160.79.223
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Stalling and bogging down?
DB: Had the same problem with mine, same boat and engine except '79. While replacing the ancient fuel filer with a Racor, I found some clear red goo in the fuel, purged the tank (just till goo was gone), then noticed the electric fuel pump came off The Mayflower. Replaced that (and other items - found engine was frozen, long story, now unfrozen)) now, with the new fuel pump and cleaned up carb, it starts is 3-4 seconds, doesn't stall, runs like it never did in previous 4 years. Don't make the problem complicated - if the fuel pump looks like it's corroded and you don't know how old it is, it may be the problem.You symptoms are the same as mine were, and the fuel pump was a difference in light and day. The Catalina fuel pump from Moyer was plug-n-play, and all is well (except for reverse gear..........)
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#23
IP: 144.160.5.25
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Be sure you clean that grill.
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#24
IP: 12.167.64.68
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Next...
It was a tight fit but the new exhaust 'plumbing' is installed and now have a dry engine compartment!
Also found fuel line clamps to be a bit loose and air pockets in the see-through fuel filters. tightened clamps and repositioned filters to keep any air bubbles at the inlet end of filter. Before I started in on the carburetor, a dock neighbor stopped by to see what I've been working on and gave a new perspective to the engine cutting out in gear. He said it sounded like a fast shut down and not bogging down as I interpretted. I put it in gear at the dock and noticed the head became very hot, but both the thermostat housing and exhaust manifold were cool to touch, then it died after about 10 minutes. Removed the thermostat, restarted and put in gear at the dock for a good 20-30 minutes before she died...put it in nuetral, turned the key and fired right back up again. During the 20 min run time I clamped the bypass hose for a short time to see if it would flush any blockage and the head seemed to not get as hot. I am going to test the thermostat 'opening' temperature next, then open the carburetor main passage plug to make sure it is clean. Appreciate your thoughts on what to do next.
__________________
-Don "Vahevala" 1980 C30, #1811 |
#25
IP: 66.92.86.253
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Fuel starvation?
Your symptom sure sounds to me as though your engine is being starved for fuel. There's enough trickling through in idle, but not nearly enough when under load. In gear it takes a little while to run down what you may have accumulated in the carb float bowl during idle. Given that the problem came on recently after a period of good running I'd really suspect something clogging up the lines, filters or jets.
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Tags |
atomic 4, catalina 30, engine shutdown, troubleshooting |
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