Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Cooling System

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26   IP: 137.103.82.194
Old 12-26-2018, 10:52 AM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,303
Thanks: 46
Thanked 359 Times in 269 Posts
14 PSI would blow right past the cap on my HX. Is that cold?
Also watch for side effects from a hotter engine. You can run a glycol mix to at least 220 degrees, but that much heat may cause other issues. In my case steady running at 180 causes vapor lock issues after a couple of hours, which is why for now I am back to RWC.
Reply With Quote
  #27   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 12-26-2018, 09:49 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 8,433
Thanks: 132
Thanked 1,168 Times in 781 Posts
14# sounds like something's constipated.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #28   IP: 137.200.32.22
Old 12-27-2018, 07:29 AM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,303
Thanks: 46
Thanked 359 Times in 269 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
14# sounds like something's constipated.
My 3 guesses:
1. The side plate injector.
2. Thermostat housing and related fittings.
3. The manifold.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to joe_db For This Useful Post:
Elmo (05-20-2019)
  #29   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 12-27-2018, 08:23 AM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 8,433
Thanks: 132
Thanked 1,168 Times in 781 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
My 3 guesses:
1. The side plate injector.
2. Thermostat housing and related fittings.
3. The manifold.
. . . . or any combination thereof.

Bill, I did not read where you took any measures to enlarge or clean out the coolant passages as part of this installation. Also, what is the current thermostat/bypass configuration?
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #30   IP: 72.218.163.249
Old 12-27-2018, 09:03 AM
alcodiesel's Avatar
alcodiesel alcodiesel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 217
Thanks: 23
Thanked 44 Times in 35 Posts
Tom came down yesterday and we experimented with regards to lowering the pressure.
We tried:
With and without the thermostat (MMI), with and without the bypass valve (MMI), larger (5/8) thermostat housing to manifold hose and fittings, circumvent the manifold all together.

Lowered the psi a pound or two at best.

So far conclusions: the main restriction is T inlet (which also has a hole directed between #2 and 3 cyl.), all the fittings and hoses add up. The 14psi appears to be on the injector T not anywhere else.

Results thus far: There is good flow and we did 2 full power runs (1600rpm) for half an hr each 165 to 170 was highest temp. The thermostat hardly opened but when it did the delta P was - 1/2 psi. Yes the box was open. Yes the prop is barnacled up and yes tied to the dock(good load), and yes the bay water is cooler than in the summer.

BTW: purging that air from this is very easy. The pump shuts down temporarily when it cavitates. Adding water to the HX while it does that, it takes about 30 seconds to a minute before all the air is out. I think having the HX 3 feet+ above the pump and no dips or valleys in the hose runs helps.

This is a new head and while I replaced it I cleaned all passages and the side cooling plenum (or whatever it is called). All new hoses.

I hope I answered all questions in my write up and faithfully described our attempts to discover where the high pressure is coming from.

Now the great news: the rigger said he'd most likely install the new mast (and all new rigging) Friday. Still a hope I'll be sailing again by New Years.
__________________
Bill McLean
'76 Ericson 27
:valhalla:
Norfolk, VA
Reply With Quote
  #31   IP: 137.200.32.22
Old 12-27-2018, 10:38 AM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,303
Thanks: 46
Thanked 359 Times in 269 Posts
I think you may want to make a 3 inlet side plate. Someone on here had one and it looked very nice. If not that, at least re-engineer the one inlet for more flow.
I would also leave the filter on. The HX has tiny passages and they clog up very easily.
Reply With Quote
  #32   IP: 97.93.70.7
Old 12-27-2018, 12:52 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lake Arrowhead Ca.
Posts: 3,911
Thanks: 386
Thanked 321 Times in 225 Posts
Bill, is the hi-pressure between the pump and the injection tee?

If it is that is not really that bad and actually kinda good. I ran and worked on a lot of boats on the lower Co River which is shallow and very sandy. Pumps on OB's and inboards were getting chewed up when ever running due to the silt and sand. Many of the regulars and I ran a pressure gage on the cooling system to monitor our pumps. These gages were most always mounted by the tach. for easy visibility. I ran big OB's and a new pump would yield about 10~12 PSI when it would begin to drop we would replace the impeller's or lower the trim. Your 14PSI is a bit high but not really worrisome IMHO.

I do have another question as to what "shoe" you have in the pump? Perhaps a smaller shoe would fix the worries for you.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #33   IP: 72.218.163.249
Old 12-27-2018, 02:35 PM
alcodiesel's Avatar
alcodiesel alcodiesel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 217
Thanks: 23
Thanked 44 Times in 35 Posts
Yes I am reasonably convinced the hi P is between the pump and the injection T.
Larger holes in the T? 3 holes? Good ideas.

I am not worried and will wait to see how it holds temp when summer rolls around. I am pleased with the system's performance tied to a dock.
__________________
Bill McLean
'76 Ericson 27
:valhalla:
Norfolk, VA
Reply With Quote
  #34   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 12-27-2018, 04:16 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 8,433
Thanks: 132
Thanked 1,168 Times in 781 Posts
I upsized my sideplate Tee to 1/2" NPT. The new diverter cap has three holes: one 3/8" down and forward, one 3/8" down and aft and one 1/4" straight through. It has worked well for me.
Attached Images
 
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 12-27-2018 at 08:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to ndutton For This Useful Post:
Administrator (12-27-2018), alcodiesel (12-28-2018), Dave Neptune (12-27-2018), Elmo (05-20-2019), sastanley (12-28-2018), thatch (12-27-2018)
  #35   IP: 74.107.30.131
Old 12-28-2018, 10:32 PM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 6,611
Thanks: 568
Thanked 326 Times in 257 Posts
Plus 1 on Neil's suggestions. I think there is a bit of a restriction at the sideplate as originally designed. As Neil's pic shows, the cast pieces are smoother for more flow than machined. I upsized all my stuff on the side plate too. I also eliminated the Moyer bypass and removed the t-stat so that all cooling goes straight up and thru. It takes it a little longer to warm up when the weather is not hot with no t-stat, but I have a slightly undersized (I think) HX, so I am looking for maximum cooling. I run 165-170°F at 2,000 RPM cruise and 190°F at WOT.
__________________
-Shawn
"Twice Around" - '77 Catalina 30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold.
She is always happy with a clean bottom!

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif
Reply With Quote
  #36   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 12-28-2018, 10:47 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 8,433
Thanks: 132
Thanked 1,168 Times in 781 Posts
The great advantage I have recently enjoyed is with opening up the system for better flow and maximizing the HX size for the available space I now have the new MMI thermostat controlling the temperature, something unheard of when I started with electric FWC. I always had the larger sideplate fittings but my original HX was barely adequate. You'll notice I haven't offered the old HX to anyone on this forum. If it was marginal for me there was no reason to expect it to be different for anyone else. Let's not make my problem your problem.

As first installed with no thermostat and bypass fully closed (maximum cooling) I was running at 180° at cruising speed. Pushing her to WOT the temp would creep up beyond that. It worked, reached its own equilibrium but under no circumstances could it be considered controlled.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 12-28-2018 at 10:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #37   IP: 74.107.30.131
Old 12-28-2018, 10:50 PM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 6,611
Thanks: 568
Thanked 326 Times in 257 Posts
Thumbs up

Neil, If I ever get a bigger HX, I would add the MMI t-stat back in. For now, I am running wide open on the cooling side for the same reasons you did with the smaller HX.
__________________
-Shawn
"Twice Around" - '77 Catalina 30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold.
She is always happy with a clean bottom!

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif
Reply With Quote
  #38   IP: 72.218.163.249
Old 01-08-2019, 08:35 AM
alcodiesel's Avatar
alcodiesel alcodiesel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 217
Thanks: 23
Thanked 44 Times in 35 Posts
I've been out maybe half a dozen times and run the A4 for maybe half an hour each way. In these colder waters the temp has not gone over a little under 140 and usually hovers around 120. I'd like it hotter and I figure that will happen when the bay water is 40 degrees warmer in the summer.

So no issues and I am going to drain the water and put in anti freeze today.

BTW I do like the idea that for the most part my A4 is no longer corroding and gunking up inside. I'll be the only one aboard with clogged arteries.

It seems my reluctance to add another system (anti KISS) to the boat was unfounded.
__________________
Bill McLean
'76 Ericson 27
:valhalla:
Norfolk, VA
Reply With Quote
  #39   IP: 108.197.8.248
Old 01-10-2019, 07:13 PM
Michael Edwards Michael Edwards is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 35
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
After reading all the previous posts, I just want to say that after running for two hours yesterday my 5 year old Indigo system is working great. I dialed in 185 degrees under load and can drop the temp to 170 for a cool down, but don't bother doing that much anymore during the winter. My boat is an Ericson 32 with most of the improvements from Indgo and Moyer.
The newer Indigo cooling system sounds nice, but I am very pleased with the original electric pump and thermo coupler. One practice in summer is that I leave the ignition on for five minutes after shutting down, which quickly cools and stabilizes the temperatures in the compartment. I do have to clean calcium build-up in the raw water side annually. This may be due to a mine near me on the Pamlico....... not sure, but definitely a high build up.
The benefits of the constant engine temperature in cold water, includes not seeing the temperature gauge zooming down every time the thermostat opens, and not having to use the choke to keep the motor running at low RPM. Also it seem to be more efficient on fuel consumption. And I don't have the constant monitoring and insecurity in tight maneuvering.
Reply With Quote
  #40   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 01-10-2019, 10:54 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 8,433
Thanks: 132
Thanked 1,168 Times in 781 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Edwards View Post
One practice in summer is that I leave the ignition on for five minutes after shutting down, which quickly cools and stabilizes the temperatures in the compartment.
AFTER shutting down?? You have the ignition on without the engine running for 5 minutes (presumably to run the electric coolant pump)?

Lord have mercy!
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 01-10-2019 at 10:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ndutton For This Useful Post:
Peter (01-11-2019)
  #41   IP: 24.53.89.131
Old 01-11-2019, 05:36 AM
Peter's Avatar
Peter Peter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 165
Thanks: 48
Thanked 65 Times in 49 Posts
worried about the coil?

I too was concerned about the five minutes of ignition on with no engine running. This is a very good way to ruin a coil.

If you wish to run the pump after shutting down, it would be advisable to figure out a way to do that without providing power to the coil.

On my boat I inserted a toggle switch in the wire from the key switch to the coil. I can turn the engine instruments on without powering up the coil. I did this to allow me to monitor temperature after the engine is shutdown.

You may wish to consider a similar arrangement.

Peter
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Peter For This Useful Post:
Administrator (01-11-2019)
  #42   IP: 137.200.32.54
Old 01-11-2019, 07:58 AM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,303
Thanks: 46
Thanked 359 Times in 269 Posts
There are some EI modules that tolerate being on after shut down. If you don't have one of them -
When I had my FWC set up I had two pumps and one ran from its own switch independent of the ignition
Reply With Quote
  #43   IP: 72.218.166.134
Old 05-08-2019, 08:30 AM
alcodiesel's Avatar
alcodiesel alcodiesel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 217
Thanks: 23
Thanked 44 Times in 35 Posts
Now with about 25 hrs on this new system including one hard run against the current for over an hour, nearly full throttle. Temp remains 140ish in slightly warmer bay. Then:

I installed the new super delux Moyer thermostat. Temps are now 180 to 200.

Even though I know a hotter engine is happier I nervously watched all parameters (including engine sound) closely. My head said one thing my heart another.

Results: the engine is quieter, smoother sounding. Runs as well as ever. I get a shade over 100 more rpms more at wot- same, if not, dirtier prop and bottom. Very happy with performance.
__________________
Bill McLean
'76 Ericson 27
:valhalla:
Norfolk, VA
Reply With Quote
  #44   IP: 137.200.32.6
Old 05-08-2019, 07:57 PM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,303
Thanks: 46
Thanked 359 Times in 269 Posts
My problem with 180-200 range is twofold:
1. It heats the boat up.
2. After a couple of hours I start getting erratic fuel pressure and eventually the engine will quit. Seems to be getting vapor lock.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Indigo Vs Martec Flyingmike Drive Train / Propellers 21 03-28-2017 12:42 AM
possible ignition issue? indigo E.I. MN John Ignition System 4 08-13-2016 05:27 PM
Indigo or Martec Tar34 Drive Train / Propellers 13 12-18-2013 12:13 AM
Just installed a new Indigo Thermostat kit and now old water pump does not pump sailmakered Cooling System 16 10-03-2011 04:17 PM
Installed the Indigo PCV kit today Baltimore Sailor General Maintenance 6 04-09-2009 01:22 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2019 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved